Deleting posts

[EEVblog]

To be honest, I'm quite content now to know that there is a major difference at the underlying mechanism at the deleted posts, cause now its just moved to a reserved places not readable for normal members, not like previous condition where its gone forever, or needs lots of efforts to recover it.

Yes. All deleted posts are now saved in a section only available to mods, and we can restore them if needed.
This is a certainly a good change.

[xrunner]

I seriously do not understand why you are taking this so personally? 

And I can say the exact same thing back to YOU.

I mean no disrespect with any post I make, if people feel that I am, then I'm sorry, but that is a mistaken assumption on their part about my intentions.

Then reply a little more like you care about others ideas especially when they disagree with you, and you have failed to convince them. Just acknowledge their opinion and say you'll consider it. That's all you really have to do.

I don't see a single other person complaining about the way I've handled this or replied, if people have an issue with the way I've replied to them, please tell me publicly here or in private if you prefer. In fact, (and don't take this as bullying, I'm just stating a fact) all I have gotten is private messages concerning your attitude in this thread.

Well I'm the main person who's been debating you, so I'm the one who has suffered your attitude. Why would anyone else complain when they haven't tried to debate it as hard as I have The harder I try, the worse you act in return.

I've got PMs about the thread too, not in your favor. So now what Dave?

[c4757p]

Hasn't this gone on long enough?

[EEVblog]

And I can say the exact same thing back to YOU.

Have I complained about the way you've spoken to me?
Have I used swear words?
Have I claimed you have belittled me, or am not showing you enough respect?
No, I have done none of those thing. The only one taking this personally is you.
If you think my simply replying to your comments in a discussion forum is taking things "personally", then fine, I'll stop replying to your comments. Ok?

[EEVblog]

Hasn't this gone on long enough?

The supposed person argument with xrunner? Yes.
The discussion on the relative merits of changing the forum, no.

[c4757p]

Good. You two are just chasing each other's tails now. Let's move on to sniffing each other's asses, and then you can both sit down to a nice chew toy, okay?

[marmad]

People using a forum should know, or should be told if they don't, that the discussion flows from the first post to the last, and that ideas are changed and new information is presented as it goes on. Things are corrected and mistakes are made, that's the ebb and flow of a forum Dave.

That's WHAT A FORUM DOES/IS.

What you're describing is just the basic concept behind the normal functionality of a message board. To say that it can only function properly in that way is like saying a car jack can only be used for lifting cars.

As Dave and Mike have already pointed out, we - the collective majority - have been using this particular forum in a slightly different way. And it seems to me that particular way has not only led to the forum flourishing and growing, but that conceptually - it's a perfect fit for the EE tinkering mentality.

I say: it's already turned on AND taken apart - all is well.

[EEVblog]

As Dave and Mike have already pointed out, we - the collective majority - have been using this particular forum in a slightly different way. And it seems to me that particular way has not only led to the forum flourishing and growing, but that conceptually - it's a perfect fit for the EE tinkering mentality.

I don't think any forum or such is a perfect fit for any community. The forum is far from perfect in fact. It it was perfect then it would cater for everyone needs and desires. But that's not really practical, I have yet to see a system in existence that does that.
What xrunner and some others have said, certainly has merit in it's own way, but is it a better way to run this forum? I don't think anyone has given anything close to a compelling argument that it would be. Just some (in xrunners argument it appears) idealistic historical record thing that relies too much on niche "what if" arguments. There are just too many positives for the freedom afforded by the forum currently offers.

[JoannaK]

I know I'm late with this..  but IMHO the old posts are what they are, I see no benefit of the user-deleting the posts (or entire threads) haphazardly. I know some people try to delete their totally stupid FB comments or tweets, but the reality it's quite desperate ...

[c4757p]

IMO it's been working fine as it is, so screw ideological arguments and just don't fix what ain't broke! Sure, a couple people have complained, but a couple people will always complain. Hell, if only a couple EEVbloggers complain about something you know you're doing well.

I see the point about people farting out asinine, trollish comments and flamebait and then deleting them to make it look like they didn't, but I think I've only seen that here once or twice. Usually, the ensuing argument makes sure everybody can see who was an ass...

[sleemanj]

xrunner sure seems upset that he was belittled, so I just had to go back through the thread to see what horrendous affront Dave gave, but as far as I can see in this thread, he has been quite accepting of his opinion, far more patient than I would have been for sure, he just doesn't agree with it, in no way can I see has DLJ "belittled" him.

In fact, if there was any belittling going on, I think it was xrunner with "I know everything that can happen and I've seen every possible thing members can do a lot longer than you have I bet" and subsequent similar statements.  Is this one of those culture things between US and UK/AU/NZ where they find something offensive that we find perfectly normal (less common vice-versa)?


Anyway to return to topic;  the main reason for not allowing edits (and I include deletion) is to make it easier to follow a discussion, but the main reason for allowing edits (and I include deletion) is to make it easier to correct your flubs, and to provide easy to get current information in the first post of a thread which is a very common practice on almost any technical forum where a long-running project is being documented in a thread.

A short window where post deletion and editing is allowed, and allowing the editing of the first post (or especially ordained posts) permanently, is a decent compromise between the two positions. 

But, is it really broken how it is at the moment (don't fix what's not broke), allowing no limits at all?  Maybe... I know I got a bit confused when I looked through the flir thread once after those deletions.  But is pretty much a one-off occurrence really cause for alarm?  Eh, probably not if you ask me.

Whatever the case, of course deletion and editing is ALWAYS possible, even if it's just admin/mod that can do it, they are all reasonable people here who would almost certainly do so if somebody asked.

[EEVblog]

I know I'm late with this..  but IMHO the old posts are what they are, I see no benefit of the user-deleting the posts (or entire threads) haphazardly.

Only mods can delete entire threads, that was an error in the configuration in this instance.
Some benefits to deleted have put forward. But it's also about simply having the choice. But that's whole "who owns the data" argument...

[EEVblog]

A short window where post deletion and editing is allowed, and allowing the editing of the first post (or especially ordained posts) permanently, is a decent compromise between the two positions. 

It might very well be. But that option is not in the forum, it would have to be custom added.

[MrAureliusR]

I have just as much forum experience as you do, right back the BBS days 25+ years ago. I know enough to know there is no right answer here.

I disagree, there is a right answer - you do not allow deletion and editing of posts forever. That's the right answer. Any other option disrupts the historical nature of the forum. That simply cannot be argued, because it's true. 

Really? Because this forum seems to have been running perfectly smoothly up to now.

I really think that editing should be allowed indefinitely, if some idiot takes back something they said then that's a black mark on them anyway. Don't fix it if it ain't broken!!!

[MrAureliusR]

Perhaps not, but in the real world that is a part of what it becomes whether you like it or not. That I think is demonstrably true. And I'd hazard a guess that more people care about using it that way than it being some "historical record" of people bitching about this and that, complete with all their mistakes.
Do you really think most people who will visit say the Flir E4 thread care about who said what at what time to whom? No, they care about find the info about hacking their camera.

You might be surprised at the underlying relationships between members. I'd bet you that there's many little cliques and groups you have no idea about, but that's what happens on a forum community. I'd bet there;s a lot of people that search for certain member's posts and so on.

This isn't 4chan for gods sake. At the risk of starting another argument with a brick wall, this is supposed to be a fun place to come and discuss our passion, which is electronics.

I guess, considering you know SO much about forums xrunner, you've never seen a community moderate itself? You believe that humans are so innately stupid that we need to lock them in pens and only allow them certain freedoms? I know that's an extreme example but essentially you're saying for reason x y or z we need to stop people from participating in open, free discussion -- which is NEVER a good thing. EVER. Let the trolls rant and rave and delete their posts a minute later -- who fucking cares?!?! The valuable information from legit members who actually care and love this forum will always be there -- honestly, this is making a mountain of a molehill.

IMO it's been working fine as it is, so screw ideological arguments and just don't fix what ain't broke! Sure, a couple people have complained, but a couple people will always complain. Hell, if only a couple EEVbloggers complain about something you know you're doing well.

I see the point about people farting out asinine, trollish comments and flamebait and then deleting them to make it look like they didn't, but I think I've only seen that here once or twice. Usually, the ensuing argument makes sure everybody can see who was an ass...

Once again, c4757p to the rescue

This is my last word on the subject or else I'm going to really explode, and I haven't even gotten to the last pages yet.

[johnwa]

Well, this definitely looks like a contentious topic, which I will try to stay out of, other than to say I do think it is preferable to retain a record of exactly what was said, rather than having inconvenient posts disappear down the 'memory hole'...

On the subject of editing posts, one solution I have seen on other forums is to allow people to append content to their own posts, but always keeping the original text in place (possibly with strikeout). This allows updates, corrections, and acknowledgement of silly typos, while still preserving the original post.

I do not know how hard this would be to implement, but I would be prepared to investigate if other members deemed it worthwhile.

[A Hellene]

My fellow EEVBloggers, please do not confuse this specific forum with any mainstream discussion boards you might know of. In this forum even 'sensitive' threads about politics, religion, sports, etc., can go (and have gone) on and on forever without the threads diminishing to a storm of personal attacks or even worse, and with a little or even with no moderation at all thanks to the quality of the majority of the contributors. Contributors who are not over here to unload their personal problems to other people; who are able of disagreeing without being disagreeable; who are able to protect those who cannot defend themselves by not attacking them with emotional arguments or by stopping others who do. Contributors who can regulate the discussion flow with a little or without external help at all. Contributors who seem to care about this place.

On the other hand, the vast majority of the mainstream fora cannot handle any discussion of such sensitive matters without any heavy moderation, user restrictions or other measures. That is because the vast majority of our fellow people have been conditioned from their early age to be functioning under heavy restrictions (in order to become easily controllable by those who are going to be taking advantage of them throughout their lives); under such heavy restrictions that they cannot anymore think of a life without any 'beneficial' restrictions. The other ones of course, who know pretty well where they stand, see the restrictions this way:
--Why should I choose to wear a pair of handcuffs, even if they seem to be fluffy, silky, fragranced and trendy, according to the 'Cosy handcuffs, as seen on TV' marketing campaign?

So, hypothetically, by putting a few restriction for some people to feel 'at home' would not some other people who do not appreciate restrictions might think that the time came for them to move on? But if the majority of the latter ones departed, whose contributions would the former ones be able to be enjoying any more at that place they made? Would they still remain at the place they created or would they move on to another fine forum to ask again that new fine place to also impose the restrictions they love to have?

The answer is straightforward: If you really want to help this place, you will have to accept it as it was when you found it and attracted you, and try to be yourselves the ones who will protect it by any occasional invaders; you will realise that you will not be left alone at these times.

Returning to the point we begun from, please do not confuse this specific forum with any mainstream discussions boards you might know of. The people this place has initially attracted made it what it became, which is exactly what attracted you; and all this happened without any of the restrictions that are now being discussed to be imposed.

My question is:
Birds do never tend to flock around a dried up water hole. Do you really want to reduce this place to dried up water hole?


-George

[M. András]

i think in case of deleting just leave the post marker there and mark it as deleted or disable it completly if bullshit or something else is posted live with it ffs you cant erase what you say in real life too

[tautech]

Thanks Dave for following a democratic process.

As a recently joined member I relish the chance to have forum input and I have the age and wisdom to be careful with what I post....once said hard to take back!
However a post with any technical detail must be able to be edited for accuracy sake.

Edit: Remove button returned..Thanks.
Even the Remove post button that has recently been removed, now does not allow a poster to clean up a thread. I have seen marmad do it to good effect.
I saw your explanation that if the first post of a thread was removed the whole thread was lost. That must not happen!

If the OP is flaming or flamed in a thread then the member should be censored, but we must not loose the thread.
Maybe with GOOD reason the OP having contacted you and/or Moderators the thread be CLOSED or LOCKED.

Time to get the Geeks in to tweak Forum code.

Thanks for the chance to input.
Tautech

BTW I was able to remove this post from the wrong thread and place it in the correct one!
Just wonder what would have happened to my vote? For....of course

[BravoV]

Does SMF stored the 1st original "unedited" post if the poster edited it ?

[EEVblog]

Does SMF stored the 1st original "unedited" post if the poster edited it ?

Nope. It will only make a snapshot copy once you hit delete. There is no ability to see or recover edits.

[GeoffS]

Does SMF stored the 1st original "unedited" post if the poster edited it ?

No, there's nothing special about the first post as far as SMF is concerned.

[bit slow in responding]

[GeoffS]

Happy New Year. I resolve to be civil, respectful and courteous to all here on the forum. Also to exercise more, lose some weight and be less wasteful.

And as you can no longer delete a post - your resolutions are on the permanent record   

[rolycat]

Sure, I'm being headstrong about this, but I know what I'm talking about.

You think you know what you're talking about.

I think headstrong means pig-headed and obstinate.

Both of us could be wrong.

[EEVblog]

WOW this thread has really taken off since I last weighed in with my 2 cents. So do I understand it correctly like this.

Yep, that's correct!