Author Topic: Expanding - Hopefully  (Read 14749 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2021, 01:10:08 pm »
I would rather even try a focused radio over the concrete walls
before that..  ;D

They are concrete floors, like 5 floors of them, and the concrete underground carpark extends beyond the building perimeter, plus various metal shielding, the building is practially faraday cage.
Forget any RF solution.

I would not say that in the 2020s ...

Any folk here aged enough to actually have the experience before the 90s..
pretty much can put things in a rather different way.

You probably lived the time BEFORE "The Internet" like me. And you know
how things were done before forums.. links ... fupedias and downloads..

Spoiled newbies post 90s have no idea of that.
I my case I started being a TOTAL TV junkie in the 70s.
By 80s I had a daily activity repairing TVs, VHS etc..

But also as part of the junkie stuff I was an avid collector
of the stuff from these folks here

http://www.antennaeletronica.com.br
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.antennaeletronica.com.br

They are/were in the HAM and TV buz since 1926.. and I have a TON
of their publications .. mostly articles for TV junk repairman and
Antenna widely important tips.. FLYBACK converters tons of important
things in the TUBE and all discrete days.. impossible to understand
wo such help..

Invaluable and absolute impossible to describe.
Nothing compares to post 90s as the Internet took over all things.

One thing I have learned from the time (70/80s) I was deeply
doing hard Antenna stuff (like weak VHF and UHF signals impossible
analog reflections.. crappy boosters):
- NEVER never ever gave up before trying
- NEVER  ever gave up on the first or second assemble
- Always consult folks w/experience in the area..

Typical in your case
* 4 or 5 walls of concrete can be easily done with highly directional dish antenna
* Signal attenuation for typical concrete is around 12-15 dB in the 2.4 GHz band
* Yagi antennas  can provide  gain around 12-15 dB just that...

So.. without directional antenna you can hit two walls.
But with a proper focused directional  dish you can have more than
25 dB of gain  around two concrete walls... or more transparently

Modern small dishes in 2.4 GHz band with boosters
can put you above the 4 concrete wall easily w/a decent
noise floor..

Should be not that expensive today.

Main problem is to ask permission to install that whole crappy hardware.
https://www.ui.com/airmax/litebeam-ac-gen2/

will give you straight 26dB of gain without the radio booster.

We are no longer in the 80s or 90s .. and ALL STUFF IS DIGITAL.
so expect  highly efficient dedicated signal processors in which
this case are required..

Your solution is a MULTI PATH BOOSTED DISH setup..
the lower range the better.. above 2.4 GHz attenuation is too high..

https://mikrotik.com/product/RBLHG-5HPnD-XL

27 dB out of the box per less than 100 bucks..

BONUS.. the stuff is all  yours  and removable any time..
not the case spending in CAT6 or fibre stuff on walls..

By 90s ahead I was totally spoiled by The Internet and
stopped all CRT TV stuff dedicated myself since then
full time to PCs and network gear.. including that kind
of setups..  repairman became a hobby..

But stuff remains in the blood..  ^-^
Paul

 :palm:

I'll say it for the last time, it's 5 FLOORS of probably 30cm thick concrete, rebar and metal aircon systems and ducting and a ton of other stuff, not to mention the damn METAL   shielding.
Talking about an RF solution is lunacy.

You can see inside the foor here:


Picture going through 5 FLOORS of this.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 01:12:59 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2021, 01:20:37 pm »
I believe you pretty much...
But unless that solution you are hopeless.

While concrete may not be a problem .. rebar will be.

I would hunt for a spot where I can perforate a cable
to bypass the all metallic and unfriendly part.

Once done a proper outside PAIR of antennas
would be feasible.

Unless you can not perforate anything and route anything
you are doomed..  this building is a prison  w/ windows..

Just rethink how to bypass the RF shields.

Today 27dB dishes can go through 5 walls of concrete.
Multipath radios will solve the reflections nicely.

Not impossible.. nor lunatic.. otherwise.. you are done

 :-+
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2021, 01:34:32 pm »
All of which is a daft way to avoid running a few more metres of cable. The ultimate shielding bypass.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2021, 02:11:07 pm »
I believe you pretty much...
But unless that solution you are hopeless.

While concrete may not be a problem .. rebar will be.

I would hunt for a spot where I can perforate a cable
to bypass the all metallic and unfriendly part.

Once done a proper outside PAIR of antennas
would be feasible.

Unless you can not perforate anything and route anything
you are doomed..  this building is a prison  w/ windows..

Just rethink how to bypass the RF shields.

Today 27dB dishes can go through 5 walls of concrete.
Multipath radios will solve the reflections nicely.

Not impossible.. nor lunatic.. otherwise.. you are done

You still don't understand my building. Go back to this post to see that the building has giantic bundles of wires going right through to the basement. My office has no less than 16 phone cable pairs coming it which goes down the baement carpark about 10m horizontal from my storage unit.
It's simply a matter of which cabling/internet solution is the best option.
RF will NEVER be an option.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/networking/expanding-hopefully/msg3555208/#msg3555208
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2021, 02:17:18 pm »
.. ok so ditch that..

but unless the folks started ahead and placed CAT5
at least cables for the phone setup..

you may have ordinary cheap CAT3 or even simple UTP stuff..

w/CAT3 you are hopeless for decent data as of today.

Do not just dump alternatives.. as routing your own CAT6
some levels up to find a better thing...

or pay these folks to route a decent shielded CAT6
on these same ducts up to your facilities...

not so hopeless after all..
but actually I can not imagine that crappy building
being so damn bad designed to not allow a simple
outside routing...

 :palm:
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2021, 10:19:49 am »
not so hopeless after all..
but actually I can not imagine that crappy building
being so damn bad designed to not allow a simple
outside routing...

It's a bog standard glass curtain wall style building. Of course you can't just mount stuff on the outside of the building.
Nothing "crappy" about it, it's just standard.
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2021, 10:27:55 am »
I always look further on the "service area" of such
places where the "fronts" are impossible to
route cables and/or antennas..

the service area always allowed me to dump
my cables... sometimes a thick mesh or RG6 RG59
and CAT6 stuff (cam security and UHF)

Nevertheless in this case 2 dishes of 1.5m diameter
are not simple.  FLAT PANELS to link top bottom
are feasible but in such case a simple CAT6
dumped downwards would be cheaper....

you should have a service area accessible....
or you are scre****  left w/the stuff already there

Paul
 

Offline Towger

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2021, 03:18:39 pm »
I predate 'the 90's internet'.  Dave is right to use the existing cable, he can use VDSL modems which should be able do ~100Mb duplex over the existing copper cable.  This technique has already been proven on the building's cabling by his previous internet provider.  As he does not want touch the previous internet setup.  It leaves the issue of identifying another of the 16 cables in the comms room.  Running another cable the 10M from the Storage to Comms room.  Then he can connect the two wires in a basic connection box, putting the modem in the storage unit.  A fancier option would to put the modem in the comms run and get local power from the room or inject power (POE) over the cable from the storage room.  To be honest, the KISS approach, of having the modem in the storage with the signal loss of a junction box and extra 10m of cable unit is probably fine.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2021, 01:22:22 am »
You still don't understand my building. Go back to this post to see that the building has giantic bundles of wires going right through to the basement. My office has no less than 16 phone cable pairs coming it which goes down the baement carpark about 10m horizontal from my storage unit.
It's simply a matter of which cabling/internet solution is the best option.
RF will NEVER be an option.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/networking/expanding-hopefully/msg3555208/#msg3555208
If you can connect into the cables, most straightforward solution would be to connect two pairs and see if you can get an Ethernet link going. (You can use a separate subnet and maybe even a VPN if you're concerned about others breaking into your network with a cable in the open.) Another option is to hack a pair of Homeplug adapters to run over twisted pair, which will have a much higher noise tolerance as well as encryption built into the protocol.

If you can't connect directly or prefer not to, what is the RF environment like between the cables and the storage room? If you use two pairs of phone lines as an antenna (ideally in two different cables), you'll effectively would have a way to send RF through the "impenetrable" floors.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2021, 03:49:11 am »
If you can't connect directly or prefer not to, what is the RF environment like between the cables and the storage room? If you use two pairs of phone lines as an antenna (ideally in two different cables), you'll effectively would have a way to send RF through the "impenetrable" floors.

The MDF comms room is about 15m away from the storage room, not far to run cable at all. So I'd just pay someone to run a conduit from the comms room to the storage unit (as well as potentially a dedicated cable from my office and down the shaft if possible/needed).
For those wondering, no I can't just do this myself. That is illegal and against the strata rules, and I'm on the strata executive comittee. Not exactly a good look if I just go around stringing my own stuff.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2021, 05:10:23 am »
Do you have any quotes for installing the cable to the comms room as well as for all the way to the office? It's sounding like the best value would be to get a run to the comms room and then use a pair or two to run modified Homeplug adapters (modifying them, while simple, would be good content for a video or two, including an overview of how PLC works), assuming the existing cable between the office and comms room is something older than CAT5 and thus not able to carry Ethernet. Under such conditions (very low noise), the Homeplugs will get quite close to their theoretical best performance. I had done that with a "1Gb" pair of Homeplugs in a rented house once, actual bandwidth was about 600Mbps which is not bad considering it had to run through really old phone lines and the Homeplugs were $20 for the pair.

The hack with using two separate pairs as an antenna is to make use of the wiring without having to get it rewired at all, although you'll give up a lot of bandwidth (and have to use custom RF hardware) so it really would have to be a big cost savings to be worth it.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #61 on: May 10, 2021, 05:47:17 am »
Do you have any quotes for installing the cable to the comms room as well as for all the way to the office?

No, I'll wait until I have the keys and can weigh up the options.
 

Offline Towger

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #62 on: May 10, 2021, 08:05:51 am »
For those wondering, no I can't just do this myself. That is illegal and against the strata rules, and I'm on the strata executive comittee. Not exactly a good look if I just go around stringing my own stuff.

Do your (no DIY) electrical laws also cover running your own network cables?  Assuming it is done properly and looks professional?  I can see building management not wanting random wires running/hanging everywhere, or it is case of not have the correct insurance cover to do the job? 
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #63 on: May 10, 2021, 08:41:24 am »
For those wondering, no I can't just do this myself. That is illegal and against the strata rules, and I'm on the strata executive comittee. Not exactly a good look if I just go around stringing my own stuff.
Do your (no DIY) electrical laws also cover running your own network cables?


Yes, you have to be licenced.
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #64 on: May 10, 2021, 09:55:33 am »
I have an open cabling registration and have been licensed with Titab ever since they switched from the previous Austel Licence. You can do a search for a licensed cabler on the ACMA site below. In your case the nominated cabler will likely require a structured cabling endorsement as well.

https://www.acma.gov.au/contact-cabling-registrar
 
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Offline PKTKS

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2021, 09:59:50 am »
For those wondering, no I can't just do this myself. That is illegal and against the strata rules, and I'm on the strata executive comittee. Not exactly a good look if I just go around stringing my own stuff.
Do your (no DIY) electrical laws also cover running your own network cables?


Yes, you have to be licenced.

Here ... things are plastered and blocked ...

But only when you are doing that "commercially"
e.g. you have a (or need to have a) proper "license" to
do this and that.. kind of this and that..

Doing that for yourself - should be legal - at least here
things are insane but not that insane...

bottom line they have plastered and blocked so much
and over-priced  so much these licenses in which things
are just 5 generations below the reality..

folks doing this are stagnated in early 50s  mentality
and can not understand how fast things changed..
just a couple years ago.

for yourself at least (not commercially) licenses are still nuts..

Paul
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #66 on: May 10, 2021, 10:02:00 am »
I have an open cabling registration and have been licensed with Titab ever since they switched from the previous Austel Licence. You can do a search for a licensed cabler on the ACMA site below. In your case the nominated cabler will likely require a structured cabling endorsement as well.

https://www.acma.gov.au/contact-cabling-registrar

That  looks like and smells like just insane as here..

Renewals and payments of these "trainings" are just
a waste of time and money... for useless bureaucrats..

doing nothing...

Paul
 
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2021, 10:14:47 am »
Just about everything now requires a license or registration, and many also implement additional endorsement requirements to add extra hurdles and additional costs. I don't really object to these if they raise the quality of standards and workmanship but generally speaking they don't, the NBN is a prime example of a dog's breakfast..... :palm:
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2021, 10:29:58 am »
Just about everything now requires a license or registration, and many also implement additional endorsement requirements to add extra hurdles and additional costs. I don't really object to these if they raise the quality of standards and workmanship but generally speaking they don't, the NBN is a prime example of a dog's breakfast..... :palm:

Almost same goes here..

the thing turns to be so lame ...

that some folks acquire such shit "licenses" just
to sell their signature on other people hard work.

A bunch of fuckwit idiots "trained" by morons
paid the very same morons... and start a business
of selling  "signature"  licenses ..

while competent folks are unable to enter a plastered
blocked market..

the licenses became the business.

of course the quality of the result is below deplorable

Paul
 

Offline msuffidy

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #69 on: May 10, 2021, 11:38:31 pm »
It depends on how much throughput you need and how cooperative your landlord is. The nicest way to do that would be to run ,or redirect an existing,  twisted pair cable between the 2 points in the walls. Maybe you could use a power line network approach. You could maybe do a fiber optic link and that could even work on a pipe on the side of the building.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #70 on: May 11, 2021, 01:19:33 am »
It depends on how much throughput you need and how cooperative your landlord is.

I am the landlord, I own my office, and therefore own like 1% of the building or something.
I am on the executive strata comittee for the building that makes decision and approves/denies tennant requests for things.
If it's in the existing strata building by-laws then no permission is needed, but you do need to use approved and licenced data cablers.
For something like this it wouldn't go the strata comittee, as it doesn't really impact the building or other tenants, you simply request an approved data cabler to install whatever you need.
In this case there is one company that handles a lot of the work in the building, so I'd just get them to quote.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 01:21:42 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline Towger

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #71 on: June 29, 2021, 07:05:31 pm »
Hi Dave,
Any update on the new storage area?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2021, 05:55:18 am »
Hi Dave,
Any update on the new storage area?

Documents stamped.
They are clearing it out now.
Not sure of exact date.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2021, 03:16:04 am »
Update: Contracts set to exchange on the 15th July.
They are leaving a some book shelves and an office desk I can use a work bench.
 

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2021, 07:39:39 am »
Get someone to run an OM3 (or better) fiber.

Friends don't let friends run multimode. Pull 6 pairs 9/125 single mode plenum grade cable and splice them to a small wall box in both ends.  Bonus: There is an opportunity to buy gear and learn something, if you don't already own a splicer and know how to use it. (If you did, though, this would be a no-brainer. So am guessing not)

On those distances it'll do 100G with (relatively) cheap transceivers. 10GE is like 15 USD from the likes of fs,com up to 10km.

Edit: The installation of cable is probably equally expensive whether fiber or copper, per meter. If you can reach a place where there's telco grade (i.e. Cat 3 or lower) wiring to your present office, short-range DSL looks OK, BUT there always is the problem of mixing different *DSL encoding schemes in the same multipair cable. The systems that are assymetric, like ADSL and VDSL, count on the pseudo-interference situation of all pairs going the same direction and therefore noise being somewhat predictable. A link going the other way, like having the "CO" end in the office and the "subscriber" end in the basement, might wreak havoc with other peoples connections.

I THINK but my memories are shady, that SDSL (2 Mbit symmetric) is kinder in this regard, and will work.

Still, if you have the least chance of getting approval, I'd say fiber (and there I mean single mode and ONLY single mode) is very high on the desirability scale.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 07:51:36 am by mansaxel »
 
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