Author Topic: Expanding - Hopefully  (Read 14746 times)

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Offline nctnico

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2021, 11:23:04 am »
Get someone to run an OM3 (or better) fiber.

Friends don't let friends run multimode. Pull 6 pairs 9/125 single mode plenum grade cable and splice them to a small wall box in both ends.  Bonus: There is an opportunity to buy gear and learn something, if you don't already own a splicer and know how to use it. (If you did, though, this would be a no-brainer. So am guessing not)

On those distances it'll do 100G with (relatively) cheap transceivers. 10GE is like 15 USD from the likes of fs,com up to 10km.

Edit: The installation of cable is probably equally expensive whether fiber or copper, per meter. If you can reach a place where there's telco grade (i.e. Cat 3 or lower) wiring to your present office, short-range DSL looks OK, BUT there always is the problem of mixing different *DSL encoding schemes in the same multipair cable. The systems that are assymetric, like ADSL and VDSL, count on the pseudo-interference situation of all pairs going the same direction and therefore noise being somewhat predictable. A link going the other way, like having the "CO" end in the office and the "subscriber" end in the basement, might wreak havoc with other peoples connections.

I THINK but my memories are shady, that SDSL (2 Mbit symmetric) is kinder in this regard, and will work.

Still, if you have the least chance of getting approval, I'd say fiber (and there I mean single mode and ONLY single mode) is very high on the desirability scale.
Could be a nice project to do a video on as well.... It is good to know a bit about fiber based ethernet even if you are an electronics engineer. Chances are high you will encounter it at some point as part of a project that has an ethernet interface.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2021, 01:37:52 pm »
Get someone to run an OM3 (or better) fiber.

Friends don't let friends run multimode. Pull 6 pairs 9/125 single mode plenum grade cable and splice them to a small wall box in both ends.

Why? More money, more finicky, more expensive optics, and you gain.. what? And why, exactly, would you **** splicing it when you can get it preterminated and just get the job done?
 

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2021, 02:05:33 pm »
Get someone to run an OM3 (or better) fiber.

Friends don't let friends run multimode. Pull 6 pairs 9/125 single mode plenum grade cable and splice them to a small wall box in both ends.

Why? More money, more finicky, more expensive optics, and you gain.. what? And why, exactly, would you **** splicing it when you can get it preterminated and just get the job done?

Background: I've been working with backbone Internet and campus networks for 20+ years, including designing and commissioning several country-wide networks, both on leased waves and dark fibre. I've been involved in every step of the process, from tender specification to site installs. The customers have typically been very demanding, on the level "a lost packet per month might be OK, if you have a good explanation". Today, I help run the WAN and LANs for a large broadcasting company, which is investing heavily in networked media technology. 

Believe me, there today are no good reasons for greenfielding multimode plant. A brownfield situation of course is different, but in the case we're talking about, there is no fiber at all.

  • The cable is the same money.
  • If you are not finicky, you are not doing it right. And that goes for any opticks. At work, we are slowly undoing years of bad practice wrt. patching fiber. A fiber connector is not, under any circumstances, to be patched into an ODF or a transceiver unless it has been microscoped and found clean according to ISO/IEC 14763-3. If it was not clean, one cleans it, and reinspects it, until it passes. If you are not doing it like this, you are a sloppy person, and negligent to good practice.
  • The price of optics also is practically the same money. "single mode is expensive" is an outdated myth.
  • Range, range, and then some range. If you are going to do last-millenium-speeds like 100Mbit, well, do keep up on the multimode. As soon as you hit 1GE, you need to be careful. 550 meters is not much, especially if you want to run two paths with diversity. 10GE and faster, which are the normal speeds today, are very constrained on even the best 50µm multimode cables.
  • It is normally impossible to get installation-grade cable that is OK to traverse fire bulkheads preterminated, unless you are buying tactical grade cable, which in and of itself is going to be more expensive than the splicer. Besides, the sparky will look at you funny because you're doing it wrong.

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2021, 02:21:08 pm »
Get someone to run an OM3 (or better) fiber.

Friends don't let friends run multimode. Pull 6 pairs 9/125 single mode plenum grade cable and splice them to a small wall box in both ends.

Why? More money, more finicky, more expensive optics, and you gain.. what? And why, exactly, would you **** splicing it when you can get it preterminated and just get the job done?

I don't see any advantage at all to using any type of optical fibre for this job.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 02:23:13 pm by EEVblog »
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2021, 02:35:41 pm »
...

Skipping the big multi-quote response: Big business and a quick link between rooms in one building (range.. jeez.) are two totally different worlds.

I bet you're fun at home - oh crap I moved the PC, time to get the microscope out..
 

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2021, 03:58:32 pm »
I don't see any advantage at all to using any type of optical fibre for this job.

And it's your money. Simple as that.

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2021, 04:12:03 pm »
...

Skipping the big multi-quote response: Big business and a quick link between rooms in one building (range.. jeez.) are two totally different worlds.
I have worked more than one place where links inside the same facility (building, even) have been a challenge to the length limit for 1GE over multimode.  10G in that situation is just hopeless. We tore out all multimode cabling and replaced it with 9/125 all over, because it was so *bleeep*ing annoying to try to build short enough links. As I wrote upthread, one path might be possible, but if you want two, dispersed, to safeguard against sparkies with a cable cutter, or fire, one of them usually ends up on the scenic route.

Besides, that "quick link" usually ends up being a vital component in something 2 years down the line, so it pays to do it right from the start.

I bet you're fun at home - oh crap I moved the PC, time to get the microscope out..

My PC's are on either GE copper or wifi (laptops and mobiles/tablets). The switches in different parts of the house and garage are interconnected with single mode fibre, at either 1 or 10GE speeds. When I move one of those inter-switch links, yes, the scope comes out. The servers are on 1 or 10G copper (DAC cables, as they're in the same rack as the core switch) as needed.

This is applied engineering, fueled by hard won experience. Not religion or dogma. I'm simply trying to solve tomorrows problems today, by doing things right from the start. At work or at home.

Online Monkeh

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #82 on: July 07, 2021, 04:40:18 pm »
And again, the context is being totally ignored in favour of your context.

I don't actually disagree with you, in the context of critical links in serious infrastructure. Outside of that context, requirements are different and the time, energy, and money expended is not necessarily worth it. The only reason fibre even comes up here is the potential for the run to be on the long side for copper - which is to say, boring even for OM3 at 40Gbps.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 04:41:58 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline capt bullshot

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #83 on: July 07, 2021, 05:39:55 pm »

A) The existing TP phone lines.


There used to be stuff than can use single twisted pair lines as networking connections. I've got a pair of these in my basement, AFAIR they can do a whopping 1MBit/s (symmetrically). But it's quite old stuff, faster ones could be available. 10MBit/s single pair ethernet hardware exists today, intended for long lines. So all you need would be a single TP phone line patched from the office to the bunker. If you can manage to get two pairs patched, simply try ordinary 100MBit/s ethernet. As people say, 100MBit/s  "works over wet string", and you could try to force it to 10MBit/s.
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Offline Towger

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #84 on: July 08, 2021, 08:28:02 am »
All we can do now in wait for Dave to get possession of the new area.  For all we know where may be existing wiring in the room going back the the comms room. 
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #85 on: July 09, 2021, 05:12:28 am »
All we can do now in wait for Dave to get possession of the new area.  For all we know where may be existing wiring in the room going back the the comms room.

From what I saw, no. And you wouldn't expect there to be either, it's just a basement garage storage room. You are lucky to get a power point let alone comms in these places.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #86 on: July 09, 2021, 05:14:50 am »
I don't see any advantage at all to using any type of optical fibre for this job.
And it's your money. Simple as that.

Fibre is cheaper than ethernt by how much?
I know copper is expensive, but I expect most of the cost is the labour to pull the cable and connect it all.
Fibre will require boxes at either end that I'd have to buy too, surely nulling out any saving in fibre vs ethernet.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #87 on: July 09, 2021, 05:17:05 am »
And again, the context is being totally ignored in favour of your context.
I don't actually disagree with you, in the context of critical links in serious infrastructure. Outside of that context, requirements are different and the time, energy, and money expended is not necessarily worth it. The only reason fibre even comes up here is the potential for the run to be on the long side for copper - which is to say, boring even for OM3 at 40Gbps.

I'd be happy to get a 10Mbps link in the storage unit, just enough for a basic internet connection.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #88 on: July 09, 2021, 05:27:10 am »
I don't see any advantage at all to using any type of optical fibre for this job.
And it's your money. Simple as that.

Fibre is cheaper than ethernt by how much?
I know copper is expensive, but I expect most of the cost is the labour to pull the cable and connect it all.
Fibre will require boxes at either end that I'd have to buy too, surely nulling out any saving in fibre vs ethernet.

Well, fibre is ethernet, but pedantics aside: It's not, outside the case of running 10Gbps links (or faster..), where copper modules are frightful and fibre is dirty cheap. It is, however, a problem solver if the run pushes or exceeds the limits of copper.

If you can get a phone pair connected between the unit and your office you could hack some powerline units to use it, or try and source some point to point DSL gear, but that's usually sinfully expensive for no good reason. Never know what will fall out if you give fleabay a shake, though.

If a new cable needs running you'll have to hire someone to do it, so you could just as easily leave it up to them how they solve it.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #89 on: July 09, 2021, 05:27:17 am »

A) The existing TP phone lines.


There used to be stuff than can use single twisted pair lines as networking connections. I've got a pair of these in my basement, AFAIR they can do a whopping 1MBit/s (symmetrically). But it's quite old stuff, faster ones could be available. 10MBit/s single pair ethernet hardware exists today, intended for long lines. So all you need would be a single TP phone line patched from the office to the bunker. If you can manage to get two pairs patched, simply try ordinary 100MBit/s ethernet. As people say, 100MBit/s  "works over wet string", and you could try to force it to 10MBit/s.

Yes, I used to use the phone lines for my VDSL internet, and I got just over 100Mbps or something for the 50m run, but had an 8M/8M connection:


And that video shows only 23m from my wall to the comms cupboard in the basement, I thought it would be double that. I don't actually believe that figure though, it has to be longer, as it's 13m from my door to the cupord down the corridor where the cable then goes down 5 sories to the MDF room. So I'd say 40m tosp to the MDF room. Then probably another 20m to the storage room. So the entire run using ethernet would be well under 100m.

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #90 on: July 09, 2021, 05:32:23 am »
If a new cable needs running you'll have to hire someone to do it, so you could just as easily leave it up to them how they solve it.

The best way for me is simply copper ethernet. Just plug a cable into my existing switch in the lab and then to an RJ45 on the wall in the storage unit.
And that's what I'll ask them to try and do unless they advise that's not possble for some reason.
I've got maybe 60-70m run, and copper is supposed to do 100m, so I don't see why everyon is making a fuss over this?
It's only if they can't physically pull a CAT5 cable though, or there is some other legal or physical issue.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 05:35:09 am by EEVblog »
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #91 on: July 09, 2021, 05:35:56 am »
If a new cable needs running you'll have to hire someone to do it, so you could just as easily leave it up to them how they solve it.

The best way for me is simply copper ethernet. Just plug a cable into my existing switch in the lab and then to an RJ45 on the wall in the storage unit.
And that's what I'll ask them to try and do unless they advise that's not possble for some reason.

It's just down to the length of the route. Your initial guesstimate was 70m, which is a number which makes me nervous (cable routes aren't always as straightforward as people want them to be), but if it slips in under 90m one way or another you're golden. If you wanted to chew on big files on a NAS all day I'd advise fibre for almost any run outside of a single room, but as that's not what you're needing..
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #92 on: July 09, 2021, 05:40:07 am »
It's just down to the length of the route. Your initial guesstimate was 70m, which is a number which makes me nervous (cable routes aren't always as straightforward as people want them to be), but if it slips in under 90m one way or another you're golden. If you wanted to chew on big files on a NAS all day I'd advise fibre for almost any run outside of a single room, but as that's not what you're needing..

No, my NAS would stay in the LAB. I just need some form or rudimentary internet connection in the storage unit. Even a few Mb connection would do. I could use cellular if that's possible, as I have a spare SIM card with enough data. But I'd prefer to just use my existing lab internet connection and pay the one-off install cost.
 

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #93 on: July 09, 2021, 09:22:37 am »
I don't see any advantage at all to using any type of optical fibre for this job.
And it's your money. Simple as that.

Fibre is cheaper than ethernt by how much?
I know copper is expensive, but I expect most of the cost is the labour to pull the cable and connect it all.
Fibre will require boxes at either end that I'd have to buy too, surely nulling out any saving in fibre vs ethernet.

In this bracket, SoHo installs, the initial costs are heavily in favour of copper, mostly because the requirement to either own a splicer or hire someone with a splicer to do it for you drives tooling/work cost up. The cable pull is probably the same money. The actual cable price is probably roughly comparable, and at any rate minor compared to what the work will cost.

The things that make fiber interesting are

  • Range
  • Bandwidth
  • Interference immunity
  • Galvanic isolation
  • Better match to "how things are done" in commercial facility installs, with fibre between floors. (and resulting easier acceptance)
  • The Challenge
  • Why not?

If you're just needing bandwidth for a camera and an access point to get connectivity when you're infrequently there, get a ethernet-over-phone-lines modem setup. If you decide on fiber, later, just skip multimode. Then all will be well.  :-DD

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #94 on: July 09, 2021, 10:05:15 am »
I don't see any advantage at all to using any type of optical fibre for this job.
And it's your money. Simple as that.

Fibre is cheaper than ethernt by how much?
I know copper is expensive, but I expect most of the cost is the labour to pull the cable and connect it all.
Fibre will require boxes at either end that I'd have to buy too, surely nulling out any saving in fibre vs ethernet.

In this bracket, SoHo installs, the initial costs are heavily in favour of copper, mostly because the requirement to either own a splicer or hire someone with a splicer to do it for you drives tooling/work cost up. The cable pull is probably the same money. The actual cable price is probably roughly comparable, and at any rate minor compared to what the work will cost.

The things that make fiber interesting are

  • Range
  • Bandwidth
  • Interference immunity
  • Galvanic isolation
  • Better match to "how things are done" in commercial facility installs, with fibre between floors. (and resulting easier acceptance)
  • The Challenge
  • Why not?

If you're just needing bandwidth for a camera and an access point to get connectivity when you're infrequently there, get a ethernet-over-phone-lines modem setup. If you decide on fiber, later, just skip multimode. Then all will be well.  :-DD

or I could just run CAT5 and it's job done  ::)
No stupid boxes at either end to power and configure and keep working.
I've got better things to spend my time on than the "challenge" of getting some other system working.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #95 on: July 14, 2021, 02:43:02 am »
KISS works for me as well.  (Not that my opinion is worth anything here.)
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #96 on: July 14, 2021, 03:40:43 am »
  • Galvanic isolation

The advantage of the galvanic isolation provided by fiber cannot be overstated if you live in an area with thunderstorms, and it is reasonably inexpensive.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #97 on: July 14, 2021, 04:10:40 am »
I know where Dave's lab is - and I've been living in the general area all my life.

Thunderstorms are not a big consideration for most things.  I've had external TV antennae for decades and never suffered from the lack of lightning protection.  While a risk, it is very low.

When we start talking about inside office buildings, the risk is even less (unless there's something about office buildings of which I am unaware.)
 

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #98 on: July 14, 2021, 05:51:55 am »
Just a quick note -- TME are offering low smoke jacketed installation grade cable in 8 strands G.652 SMF at 0,80 € per meter in 100m lengths -- so, it is basically the same as Cat 6. The price difference is that a splicer costs more than a LSA-Plus tool  :-DD

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Expanding - Hopefully
« Reply #99 on: July 14, 2021, 10:40:01 am »
I know where Dave's lab is - and I've been living in the general area all my life.
Thunderstorms are not a big consideration for most things.  I've had external TV antennae for decades and never suffered from the lack of lightning protection.  While a risk, it is very low.
When we start talking about inside office buildings, the risk is even less (unless there's something about office buildings of which I am unaware.)

Correct. And the power is all underground, as it is also for residential in our area also including my house.
 


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