Expanding - Hopefully

[EEVblog]

I already have the bunker for storage, and it's awesome, but not very convenient as it's in a different part of the business park.
I just found out about this storage space in the lab building for sale, I've been waiting 10 years for one of these to come up, they are as rare as a clear case Fluke 87.
Power, lighting, ventilation, and I can just wheel stuff on the trolley to it, right near my car spot. WAY cheaper than buying a bigger lab.
Not a done deal yet, but told them I'll take it. So fingers crossed it goes through. Ideally they want to sell it along with a big office they are also selling, but it's on a seperate title and know they might end up having to sell it individually anyway.

[TheSteve]

Bah, you just reminded me of when I missed out on a clear cased Fluke 87.

Hope you get the space!

[Brumby]

Just try to make it possible to access everything you put in there.

I can see a mega shelving project not too far down the road...!

[SeanB]

I foresee Dave installing a pick and place machine, a reflow oven, a QA station, and then hiring a student to run them part time, to in house manufacture his uCurrents in batches. Then a video series on how to run, and mistakes for young players, on running a manufacturing plant.

[EEVblog]

UPDATE:
Just got a call, the owner asked if I was willing to exchange contracts but delay settlement, as they need to sell the office and don't want to move twice.
No problem! 

[TheSteve]

Your primary lab doesn't have a window anyway - you could make this place your larger primary lab

[Ed.Kloonk]

Your primary lab doesn't have a window anyway - you could make this place your larger primary lab

Would depend on the available climate control. I don't believe there is any. Looks like that's only a fart extractor.

[EEVblog]

Your primary lab doesn't have a window anyway - you could make this place your larger primary lab

Would depend on the available climate control. I don't believe there is any. Looks like that's only a fart extractor.

Farts are pushed out the door as the outside air is pushed in.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Your primary lab doesn't have a window anyway - you could make this place your larger primary lab

Would depend on the available climate control. I don't believe there is any. Looks like that's only a fart extractor.

Farts are pushed out the door as the outside air is pushed in.

TMI.

Oh, you are talking about the mechanical ventilation.

[EEVblog]

GOT IT!
8 Week settlement, just forwarded my $1000 deposit.
 

[TheSteve]

Congrats!

Straight from the dumpster room to you new storage - you'll have it full in no time.

[EEVblog]

Straight from the dumpster room to you new storage - you'll have it full in no time.

Yes, direct trolley access, but not on the same level. I have a choice of lift or car ramp though.

[WN1X]

Add a hover car (EV of course)  to move stuff from the dumpster room to your new space and all will be well with the world!

[Towger]

Does it come with 'Free Electricity' like the bunker 

[EEVblog]

Does it come with 'Free Electricity' like the bunker 

I believe so 
Just in time for my LBC miner that is on the truck.

Although I will need to get internet in there. Three options for that I can see right now:
1) External 4G Antenna through the wall might be able to pick up a bar or two of signal (mobile kinda-sorta works outside the room, not inside). Can use my existing phone spare SIM whcih has plenty of  monthly bandwidth.
2) Get someone to run an ethernet cable from my office, down the hallway, down the shaft 5 levels and then across to the store room. IIRC that's about 70m or so, so maybe doable.
3) Get a dedicated internet line installed from the comms room just 10-15m away on the same level. This would require yet another internet account however. Probably the least desirable option.

[EEVblog]

Photo of the comms cupboard at the end of my corridor.
Not sure if you can even get an ethernet directly down those 5 levels. Maybe.

[nctnico]

Photo of the comms cupboard at the end of my corridor.
Not sure if you can even get an ethernet directly down those 5 levels. Maybe.

Depends on regulations but chances are the wire shafts are sealed between floors (and rooms / corridors) to prevent fire from spreading.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Photo of the comms cupboard at the end of my corridor.
Not sure if you can even get an ethernet directly down those 5 levels. Maybe.

Depends on regulations but chances are the wire shafts are sealed between floors (and rooms / corridors) to prevent fire from spreading.

[EEVblog]

Photo of the comms cupboard at the end of my corridor.
Not sure if you can even get an ethernet directly down those 5 levels. Maybe.

Depends on regulations but chances are the wire shafts are sealed between floors (and rooms / corridors) to prevent fire from spreading.

Possibly. Looks very tight in any case.
Could of course use one of the existing multi pair phone cables and maybe some sort of VDSL box or something, but that's not ethernet grade cabling.
There is an ethernet rack box on wall with cables going up a level, I don't know what that's for.
Maybe those big thick blue bundle of cables are multiple ethernet? Need to take a closer look.

[nctnico]

Maybe those big thick blue bundle of cables are multiple ethernet? Need to take a closer look.

The ones going to the white LSA+ cross connection strips? If yes, then those are more likely regular phone cables. That is CAT3 at most IIRC. My guess would be that the blue cables are the ones entering the building from the distribution box somewhere in the street and the light-yellow ones are going to the offices.

For 1Gb/s ethernet you'll need at least CAT5e

Is the picture above taken at the 5th floor or the basement? It looks like there is another level below from where the cables enter the building. Besides that I'm kinda surprised you can even access this room. You can probably listen in on everyone's land-line phone calls from there.

[BU508A]

Not sure, if I would use copper. I'd prefer (if possible) fibre cables.

[EEVblog]

Is the picture above taken at the 5th floor or the basement? It looks like there is another level below from where the cables enter the building. Besides that I'm kinda surprised you can even access this room. You can probably listen in on everyone's land-line phone calls from there.

It's the 5th floor.
The basement looks like this:

[IanJ]

GOT IT!
8 Week settlement, just forwarded my $1000 deposit.
 

Youtuber Dave Jones, progress is his middle name.

Well done.

[Towger]

Re 'your' black data cabinet, there is probably a number on the lock which can be used to order a replacement key for a couple of AUD.

Getting your existing/new internet down to the new bunker.  There does not appear to be much space in the ducting between floors run another cable. 

I can see a number of possible ways, none of which are 100% kosher:

A) The existing TP phone lines.
B) The soon to be redundant existing cable (CAT5?) from 'your' data cabinet.
C) There maybe an existing unused CAT5 cable.

A) I don't know how readably available DSL type equipment is, but I am sure it appears on eBay etc.  However, it is not fast.  A couple of cheap hacked Powerline Network Extenders could be used to inject a signal through the CAT3 cable.  Hopefully it will not cause much interference with neighbours still running A/VDSL. 

B) Once you switch over to NBN you old provider may just abandon the equipment (if no one else uses it). In any event I assume it already has CAT5 between the Lab and Basement Rack.  It would be no brainer to 'reuse it'.

Then there is just a matter of running (and hiding) a new cable between the Comms room and storage area.


BTW. I agree with Big Clive regarding your electronic hording :-)

Looks like there are off the shelf solutions to hacking Powerline Extenders:

https://www.startech.com/en-ie/networking-io/110vdslextgb
https://www.perle.com/products/ethernet-extenders.shtml

[EEVblog]

Getting your existing/new internet down to the new bunker.  There does not appear to be much space in the ducting between floors run another cable. 
I can see a number of possible ways, none of which are 100% kosher:
A) The existing TP phone lines.
B) The soon to be redundant existing cable (CAT5?) from 'your' data cabinet.
C) There maybe an existing unused CAT5 cable.

My existing cable was one of the 15 or so phone lines coming in, using VDSL.

[EEVblog]

GOT IT!
8 Week settlement, just forwarded my $1000 deposit.
 

Youtuber Dave Jones, progress is his middle name.

Well done.

Youtuber Dave Jones, I like the sound of that!

[Towger]

My existing cable was one of the 15 or so phone lines coming in, using VDSL.

You could try something like the StarTech VDSL2 adaptors in the link above.  They do not appear to be the fastest, but good enough the Australia!

I only realised the video was a few years old after my initial post.  Is 'your' data cabinet still in use by you or another customer?  If it is abandoned then take it over!

[nctnico]

A) The existing TP phone lines.
B) The soon to be redundant existing cable (CAT5?) from 'your' data cabinet.
C) There maybe an existing unused CAT5 cable.

I'm missing option D: investigate how hard it is to pull an extra cable and if it isn't very difficult then ask permission. Pulling cables through a building is convenient when done by 2 persons and walkie-talkies are handy to talk with eachother when you are on different floors. Looking at Dave's earlier picture I get the feeling more cables have been added over time.

[asmi]

2) Get someone to run an ethernet cable from my office, down the hallway, down the shaft 5 levels and then across to the store room. IIRC that's about 70m or so, so maybe doable.

Get someone to run an OM3 (or better) fiber. This is the most trouble-free option (length limit is >300m I think), and you will be able to upgrade the line up to 10G or even more without changing the fiber whenever you decide. And switches/network cards/media converters with SFP+ are dime a dozen.

[nctnico]

2) Get someone to run an ethernet cable from my office, down the hallway, down the shaft 5 levels and then across to the store room. IIRC that's about 70m or so, so maybe doable.

Get someone to run an OM3 (or better) fiber. This is the most trouble-free option (length limit is >300m I think), and you will be able to upgrade the line up to 10G or even more without changing the fiber whenever you decide. And switches/network cards/media converters with SFP+ are dime a dozen.

Not sure. 10Gbit SFPs are still expensive. CAT6a or CAT7 cable which also supports 10Gb/s might be a cheaper option especially if you take into account needing to splice connectors to a fiber after installing it. You can multiplex multiple connections into a single fiber but I doubt this makes any sense financially compared to pulling a few extra copper cables. The distance is just too short to justify the extra fiber optic hardware.

[EEVblog]

2) Get someone to run an ethernet cable from my office, down the hallway, down the shaft 5 levels and then across to the store room. IIRC that's about 70m or so, so maybe doable.

Get someone to run an OM3 (or better) fiber. This is the most trouble-free option (length limit is >300m I think), and you will be able to upgrade the line up to 10G or even more without changing the fiber whenever you decide. And switches/network cards/media converters with SFP+ are dime a dozen.

I don't need fibre, I just need reliable enough low bandwidth internet, preferably without signing up for yet another internet plan. I already have great internet in the lab here, and a spare SIM card on my Telstra phone plan that I only use like 10% of the bandwidth of.

[Monkeh]

2) Get someone to run an ethernet cable from my office, down the hallway, down the shaft 5 levels and then across to the store room. IIRC that's about 70m or so, so maybe doable.

Get someone to run an OM3 (or better) fiber. This is the most trouble-free option (length limit is >300m I think), and you will be able to upgrade the line up to 10G or even more without changing the fiber whenever you decide. And switches/network cards/media converters with SFP+ are dime a dozen.

Not sure. 10Gbit SFPs are still expensive. CAT6a or CAT7 cable which also supports 10Gb/s might be a cheaper option especially if you take into account needing to splice connectors to a fiber after installing it. You can multiplex multiple connections into a single fiber but I doubt this makes any sense financially compared to pulling a few extra copper cables. The distance is just too short to justify the extra fiber optic hardware.

10GBASE-SR modules are easily available around $20. 10GBASE-T are around $80. Preterminated OM3 is cheap enough ($2-3/m for 4-core and half that for patches) that it's almost never cheaper to run copper. There hasn't been anything exotic about short-range fibre for quite some time..

I don't need fibre

At 70m or more, you might. It certainly won't hurt and it isn't all that expensive.

[Towger]

I don't need fibre, I just need reliable enough low bandwidth internet, preferably without signing up for yet another internet plan. I already have great internet in the lab here, and a spare SIM card on my Telstra phone plan that I only use like 10% of the bandwidth of.

Hence reusing the existing phone cable which (I believe) was used for internet before Dave got NBN is the simplest option.

Dave,
 
Is the existing cable still intact in the Old Lab after it was remodelled?
What is the status of your old internet providers rack?  Best case scenario is it's abandoned and can be reused?
 

[EEVblog]

I don't need fibre, I just need reliable enough low bandwidth internet, preferably without signing up for yet another internet plan. I already have great internet in the lab here, and a spare SIM card on my Telstra phone plan that I only use like 10% of the bandwidth of.

Hence reusing the existing phone cable which (I believe) was used for internet before Dave got NBN is the simplest option.

Dave,
 
Is the existing cable still intact in the Old Lab after it was remodelled?
What is the status of your old internet providers rack?  Best case scenario is it's abandoned and can be reused?
 

It's not abandoned, and it belongs to them, I can't touch it. I still have 16 phone pairs into the office. I was getting about 110Mbps VDSL over one of those pairs.

[PKTKS]

If I understand you have a difficult path...

Personally I would solve that carving the shortest
way to run a fiber or CAT6 to a (cheap) Bullet

https://www.ui.com/airmax/bullet-ac/

using a also cheap radome focused external link
pointed to target location receiver.

Mikrotik have similar but more complex hardware.

That solution works regardless concrete or angles
as long as you have a sight between your two radome
links..

It should be cheaper than running copper some floors..

Paul

PS>  Cheap thingy  in attached photo
fairly common to find used stuff in good shape.

more expensive but better alternative
https://www.ui.com/airmax/litebeam-ac/

[EEVblog]

If I understand you have a difficult path...

Personally I would solve that carving the shortest
way to run a fiber or CAT6 to a (cheap) Bullet

https://www.ui.com/airmax/bullet-ac/

using a also cheap radome focused external link
pointed to target location receiver.

Mikrotik have similar but more complex hardware.

That solution works regardless concrete or angles
as long as you have a sight between your two radome
links..

It should be cheaper than running copper some floors..

Paul

PS>  Cheap thingy  in attached photo
fairly common to find used stuff in good shape.

more expensive but better alternative
https://www.ui.com/airmax/litebeam-ac/

It has to go through 6 floors of concrete, somehow I don't think it's going to make it...

[PKTKS]

Yuks...  for that long concrete I would rather run
at least a mesh of 4 CAT6 cables... which I would
buy in full box set.. plus protective stuff and
all associated gizmos for install...

nah.. I would definitively try a used set of Bullets
with antennas or  even buy whole new stuff.

run a short cable with PoE (Bullet is PoE ready)
and put there outside pointing upwards..

A good receiver may be used..and options
are widely available..

PROs:  use proof easy setup affordable..
 total legal and fairly secure..

CONs:  outside installation and some periodic check..

best bang for buck.. find a spot to point a small antenna..

Paul

[EEVblog]

nah.. I would definitively try a used set of Bullets
with antennas or  even buy whole new stuff.

run a short cable with PoE (Bullet is PoE ready)
and put there outside pointing upwards..

A good receiver may be used..and options
are widely available..

PROs:  use proof easy setup affordable..
 total legal and fairly secure..

CONs:  outside installation and some periodic check..

best bang for buck.. find a spot to point a small antenna..

Not possible.
I'm not sure you understand what kind of building I'm in. It's a multistory glass commercial office complex and I'm smack in the middle of it, no windows, no outside access. it's just not possible.
Then the storage unit is 2 stories underground once you get to the bottom floor.
Picture this type of building, being in the middle of a top floor, and the storage unit is another 2 floors underground

[PKTKS]

Seems very complicated...

If you would fallback to perforating 6 floors down..
in that kind of building.. it will not be cheap.

Last hope may be the roof one two floors with a cable up
to a decent radio and a really small receiver ..

**IF** you can dump that small flat panel receiver
outside somewhere with a cable to the room.

Otherwise you are damned to use the Internet (provider)

Paul 

[asmi]

Not sure. 10Gbit SFPs are still expensive. CAT6a or CAT7 cable which also supports 10Gb/s might be a cheaper option especially if you take into account needing to splice connectors to a fiber after installing it. You can multiplex multiple connections into a single fiber but I doubt this makes any sense financially compared to pulling a few extra copper cables. The distance is just too short to justify the extra fiber optic hardware.

Not sure what are you talking about here. Fiber is cheap and reliable (unlike copper, which is very fiddly at >50 m, especially in high-noise environment, like next to big power cables), and 10G SFP+ transceivers are quite cheap too. Also you can buy a 10G switch with 4 SFP+ ports for under $200 now, so in Dave's case paying someone to run the cable is going to be the most expensive part, not the hardware. Also most OM3+ fibers can run 100G if they are not too long, though THAT is going to be expensive on the endpoint equipment side, but the fact is that you won't have to upgrade the cable once this tech becomes more accessible is a big plus in my book.

[NiHaoMike]

What about PLC? That probably would only work if you can access the same phase from the same transformer from both rooms. Perhaps there's some PLC gadget in your collection (even if for a completely separate purpose) that you can test with before investing in proper equipment?

Are there any metal pipes accessible from both rooms? Might be able to couple a signal between it and mains ground.

[jhalar]

I have a room at one of my work sites that absolutely can't have ethernet or fibre run to it from a room 6 floors up, in a similar basement location. But it does have a phone line to the central building MDF close by.

I use 2 VDSL industrial modems back to back supplying approx 60Mbps symmetrical (100M max) using phone grade wire, speed is dependent on the quality of the cable path.  It does work well.  I use it to link 2 switches together. The modems can run in asymmetric mode if the phone line is too noisy or bad.

The modems I use are:  https://www.blackbox.com/en-au/store/product/detail/LinkGain-INDUSTRIAL-ETHERNET-EXTENDER/LB320A
Not cheap, around A$350 each but it solved my problem.

[PKTKS]

With current data ... a modem?
The phone bill per si would justify a new office...

I have some 90s USRs modem pristine in my scrap..
I remember that a single CD image distro... used to
take a whole week.. and very overpriced the phone bill..

No chance in hell this would be cost effective today..
OK it works.

I would rather even try a focused radio over the concrete walls
before that.. 

Paul 

[Monkeh]

With current data ... a modem?
The phone bill per si would justify a new office...

I have some 90s USRs modem pristine in my scrap..
I remember that a single CD image distro... used to
take a whole week.. and very overpriced the phone bill..

No chance in hell this would be cost effective today..
OK it works.

I would rather even try a focused radio over the concrete walls
before that.. 

Paul 

It's VDSL over in-building wiring. It's not slow, there's no phone bill. Your reality disconnect is apparent, as usual.

[PKTKS]

It's VDSL over in-building wiring. It's not slow, there's no phone bill. Your reality disconnect is apparent, as usual.

too much in front my desk
apologies.. I missed that detail..

Always an honor to hear your insults.. 

Thanks I will improve my attention to honor it
Paul

[David Hess]

Lack of windows will prevent access by velociraptors from the outside.  I approve.

https://xkcd.com/87/

[EEVblog]

I would rather even try a focused radio over the concrete walls
before that.. 

They are concrete floors, like 5 floors of them, and the concrete underground carpark extends beyond the building perimeter, plus various metal shielding, the building is practially faraday cage.
Forget any RF solution.

[Monkeh]

The 'easy' solution is to just get a cable run, whether it be copper or fibre. It won't be terribly cheap whichever you pick.

[Ed.Kloonk]

I would rather even try a focused radio over the concrete walls
before that.. 

They are concrete floors, like 5 floors of them, and the concrete underground carpark extends beyond the building perimeter, plus various metal shielding, the building is practially faraday cage.
Forget any RF solution.

Sounds like paradise to me. No radio signals in or out you say?

Hmm.

[PKTKS]

I would rather even try a focused radio over the concrete walls
before that.. 

They are concrete floors, like 5 floors of them, and the concrete underground carpark extends beyond the building perimeter, plus various metal shielding, the building is practially faraday cage.
Forget any RF solution.

I would not say that in the 2020s ...

Any folk here aged enough to actually have the experience before the 90s..
pretty much can put things in a rather different way.

You probably lived the time BEFORE "The Internet" like me. And you know
how things were done before forums.. links ... fupedias and downloads..

Spoiled newbies post 90s have no idea of that.
I my case I started being a TOTAL TV junkie in the 70s.
By 80s I had a daily activity repairing TVs, VHS etc..

But also as part of the junkie stuff I was an avid collector
of the stuff from these folks here

http://www.antennaeletronica.com.br
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.antennaeletronica.com.br

They are/were in the HAM and TV buz since 1926.. and I have a TON
of their publications .. mostly articles for TV junk repairman and
Antenna widely important tips.. FLYBACK converters tons of important
things in the TUBE and all discrete days.. impossible to understand
wo such help..

Invaluable and absolute impossible to describe.
Nothing compares to post 90s as the Internet took over all things.

One thing I have learned from the time (70/80s) I was deeply
doing hard Antenna stuff (like weak VHF and UHF signals impossible
analog reflections.. crappy boosters):
- NEVER never ever gave up before trying
- NEVER  ever gave up on the first or second assemble
- Always consult folks w/experience in the area..

Typical in your case
* 4 or 5 walls of concrete can be easily done with highly directional dish antenna
* Signal attenuation for typical concrete is around 12-15 dB in the 2.4 GHz band
* Yagi antennas  can provide  gain around 12-15 dB just that...

So.. without directional antenna you can hit two walls.
But with a proper focused directional  dish you can have more than
25 dB of gain  around two concrete walls... or more transparently

Modern small dishes in 2.4 GHz band with boosters
can put you above the 4 concrete wall easily w/a decent
noise floor..

Should be not that expensive today.

Main problem is to ask permission to install that whole crappy hardware.
https://www.ui.com/airmax/litebeam-ac-gen2/

will give you straight 26dB of gain without the radio booster.

We are no longer in the 80s or 90s .. and ALL STUFF IS DIGITAL.
so expect  highly efficient dedicated signal processors in which
this case are required..

Your solution is a MULTI PATH BOOSTED DISH setup..
the lower range the better.. above 2.4 GHz attenuation is too high..

https://mikrotik.com/product/RBLHG-5HPnD-XL

27 dB out of the box per less than 100 bucks..

BONUS.. the stuff is all  yours  and removable any time..
not the case spending in CAT6 or fibre stuff on walls..

By 90s ahead I was totally spoiled by The Internet and
stopped all CRT TV stuff dedicated myself since then
full time to PCs and network gear.. including that kind
of setups..  repairman became a hobby..

But stuff remains in the blood.. 
Paul

[EEVblog]

I would rather even try a focused radio over the concrete walls
before that.. 

They are concrete floors, like 5 floors of them, and the concrete underground carpark extends beyond the building perimeter, plus various metal shielding, the building is practially faraday cage.
Forget any RF solution.

I would not say that in the 2020s ...

Any folk here aged enough to actually have the experience before the 90s..
pretty much can put things in a rather different way.

You probably lived the time BEFORE "The Internet" like me. And you know
how things were done before forums.. links ... fupedias and downloads..

Spoiled newbies post 90s have no idea of that.
I my case I started being a TOTAL TV junkie in the 70s.
By 80s I had a daily activity repairing TVs, VHS etc..

But also as part of the junkie stuff I was an avid collector
of the stuff from these folks here

http://www.antennaeletronica.com.br
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.antennaeletronica.com.br

They are/were in the HAM and TV buz since 1926.. and I have a TON
of their publications .. mostly articles for TV junk repairman and
Antenna widely important tips.. FLYBACK converters tons of important
things in the TUBE and all discrete days.. impossible to understand
wo such help..

Invaluable and absolute impossible to describe.
Nothing compares to post 90s as the Internet took over all things.

One thing I have learned from the time (70/80s) I was deeply
doing hard Antenna stuff (like weak VHF and UHF signals impossible
analog reflections.. crappy boosters):
- NEVER never ever gave up before trying
- NEVER  ever gave up on the first or second assemble
- Always consult folks w/experience in the area..

Typical in your case
* 4 or 5 walls of concrete can be easily done with highly directional dish antenna
* Signal attenuation for typical concrete is around 12-15 dB in the 2.4 GHz band
* Yagi antennas  can provide  gain around 12-15 dB just that...

So.. without directional antenna you can hit two walls.
But with a proper focused directional  dish you can have more than
25 dB of gain  around two concrete walls... or more transparently

Modern small dishes in 2.4 GHz band with boosters
can put you above the 4 concrete wall easily w/a decent
noise floor..

Should be not that expensive today.

Main problem is to ask permission to install that whole crappy hardware.
https://www.ui.com/airmax/litebeam-ac-gen2/

will give you straight 26dB of gain without the radio booster.

We are no longer in the 80s or 90s .. and ALL STUFF IS DIGITAL.
so expect  highly efficient dedicated signal processors in which
this case are required..

Your solution is a MULTI PATH BOOSTED DISH setup..
the lower range the better.. above 2.4 GHz attenuation is too high..

https://mikrotik.com/product/RBLHG-5HPnD-XL

27 dB out of the box per less than 100 bucks..

BONUS.. the stuff is all  yours  and removable any time..
not the case spending in CAT6 or fibre stuff on walls..

By 90s ahead I was totally spoiled by The Internet and
stopped all CRT TV stuff dedicated myself since then
full time to PCs and network gear.. including that kind
of setups..  repairman became a hobby..

But stuff remains in the blood.. 
Paul

 

I'll say it for the last time, it's 5 FLOORS of probably 30cm thick concrete, rebar and metal aircon systems and ducting and a ton of other stuff, not to mention the damn METAL   shielding.
Talking about an RF solution is lunacy.

You can see inside the foor here:


Picture going through 5 FLOORS of this.

[PKTKS]

I believe you pretty much...
But unless that solution you are hopeless.

While concrete may not be a problem .. rebar will be.

I would hunt for a spot where I can perforate a cable
to bypass the all metallic and unfriendly part.

Once done a proper outside PAIR of antennas
would be feasible.

Unless you can not perforate anything and route anything
you are doomed..  this building is a prison  w/ windows..

Just rethink how to bypass the RF shields.

Today 27dB dishes can go through 5 walls of concrete.
Multipath radios will solve the reflections nicely.

Not impossible.. nor lunatic.. otherwise.. you are done

 

[Monkeh]

All of which is a daft way to avoid running a few more metres of cable. The ultimate shielding bypass.

[EEVblog]

I believe you pretty much...
But unless that solution you are hopeless.

While concrete may not be a problem .. rebar will be.

I would hunt for a spot where I can perforate a cable
to bypass the all metallic and unfriendly part.

Once done a proper outside PAIR of antennas
would be feasible.

Unless you can not perforate anything and route anything
you are doomed..  this building is a prison  w/ windows..

Just rethink how to bypass the RF shields.

Today 27dB dishes can go through 5 walls of concrete.
Multipath radios will solve the reflections nicely.

Not impossible.. nor lunatic.. otherwise.. you are done

You still don't understand my building. Go back to this post to see that the building has giantic bundles of wires going right through to the basement. My office has no less than 16 phone cable pairs coming it which goes down the baement carpark about 10m horizontal from my storage unit.
It's simply a matter of which cabling/internet solution is the best option.
RF will NEVER be an option.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/networking/expanding-hopefully/msg3555208/#msg3555208

[PKTKS]

.. ok so ditch that..

but unless the folks started ahead and placed CAT5
at least cables for the phone setup..

you may have ordinary cheap CAT3 or even simple UTP stuff..

w/CAT3 you are hopeless for decent data as of today.

Do not just dump alternatives.. as routing your own CAT6
some levels up to find a better thing...

or pay these folks to route a decent shielded CAT6
on these same ducts up to your facilities...

not so hopeless after all..
but actually I can not imagine that crappy building
being so damn bad designed to not allow a simple
outside routing...

 

[EEVblog]

not so hopeless after all..
but actually I can not imagine that crappy building
being so damn bad designed to not allow a simple
outside routing...

It's a bog standard glass curtain wall style building. Of course you can't just mount stuff on the outside of the building.
Nothing "crappy" about it, it's just standard.

[PKTKS]

I always look further on the "service area" of such
places where the "fronts" are impossible to
route cables and/or antennas..

the service area always allowed me to dump
my cables... sometimes a thick mesh or RG6 RG59
and CAT6 stuff (cam security and UHF)

Nevertheless in this case 2 dishes of 1.5m diameter
are not simple.  FLAT PANELS to link top bottom
are feasible but in such case a simple CAT6
dumped downwards would be cheaper....

you should have a service area accessible....
or you are scre****  left w/the stuff already there

Paul

[Towger]

I predate 'the 90's internet'.  Dave is right to use the existing cable, he can use VDSL modems which should be able do ~100Mb duplex over the existing copper cable.  This technique has already been proven on the building's cabling by his previous internet provider.  As he does not want touch the previous internet setup.  It leaves the issue of identifying another of the 16 cables in the comms room.  Running another cable the 10M from the Storage to Comms room.  Then he can connect the two wires in a basic connection box, putting the modem in the storage unit.  A fancier option would to put the modem in the comms run and get local power from the room or inject power (POE) over the cable from the storage room.  To be honest, the KISS approach, of having the modem in the storage with the signal loss of a junction box and extra 10m of cable unit is probably fine.

[NiHaoMike]

You still don't understand my building. Go back to this post to see that the building has giantic bundles of wires going right through to the basement. My office has no less than 16 phone cable pairs coming it which goes down the baement carpark about 10m horizontal from my storage unit.
It's simply a matter of which cabling/internet solution is the best option.
RF will NEVER be an option.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/networking/expanding-hopefully/msg3555208/#msg3555208

If you can connect into the cables, most straightforward solution would be to connect two pairs and see if you can get an Ethernet link going. (You can use a separate subnet and maybe even a VPN if you're concerned about others breaking into your network with a cable in the open.) Another option is to hack a pair of Homeplug adapters to run over twisted pair, which will have a much higher noise tolerance as well as encryption built into the protocol.

If you can't connect directly or prefer not to, what is the RF environment like between the cables and the storage room? If you use two pairs of phone lines as an antenna (ideally in two different cables), you'll effectively would have a way to send RF through the "impenetrable" floors.

[EEVblog]

If you can't connect directly or prefer not to, what is the RF environment like between the cables and the storage room? If you use two pairs of phone lines as an antenna (ideally in two different cables), you'll effectively would have a way to send RF through the "impenetrable" floors.

The MDF comms room is about 15m away from the storage room, not far to run cable at all. So I'd just pay someone to run a conduit from the comms room to the storage unit (as well as potentially a dedicated cable from my office and down the shaft if possible/needed).
For those wondering, no I can't just do this myself. That is illegal and against the strata rules, and I'm on the strata executive comittee. Not exactly a good look if I just go around stringing my own stuff.

[NiHaoMike]

Do you have any quotes for installing the cable to the comms room as well as for all the way to the office? It's sounding like the best value would be to get a run to the comms room and then use a pair or two to run modified Homeplug adapters (modifying them, while simple, would be good content for a video or two, including an overview of how PLC works), assuming the existing cable between the office and comms room is something older than CAT5 and thus not able to carry Ethernet. Under such conditions (very low noise), the Homeplugs will get quite close to their theoretical best performance. I had done that with a "1Gb" pair of Homeplugs in a rented house once, actual bandwidth was about 600Mbps which is not bad considering it had to run through really old phone lines and the Homeplugs were $20 for the pair.

The hack with using two separate pairs as an antenna is to make use of the wiring without having to get it rewired at all, although you'll give up a lot of bandwidth (and have to use custom RF hardware) so it really would have to be a big cost savings to be worth it.

[EEVblog]

Do you have any quotes for installing the cable to the comms room as well as for all the way to the office?

No, I'll wait until I have the keys and can weigh up the options.

[Towger]

For those wondering, no I can't just do this myself. That is illegal and against the strata rules, and I'm on the strata executive comittee. Not exactly a good look if I just go around stringing my own stuff.

Do your (no DIY) electrical laws also cover running your own network cables?  Assuming it is done properly and looks professional?  I can see building management not wanting random wires running/hanging everywhere, or it is case of not have the correct insurance cover to do the job? 

[EEVblog]

For those wondering, no I can't just do this myself. That is illegal and against the strata rules, and I'm on the strata executive comittee. Not exactly a good look if I just go around stringing my own stuff.

Do your (no DIY) electrical laws also cover running your own network cables?

Yes, you have to be licenced.

[Muttley Snickers]

I have an open cabling registration and have been licensed with Titab ever since they switched from the previous Austel Licence. You can do a search for a licensed cabler on the ACMA site below. In your case the nominated cabler will likely require a structured cabling endorsement as well.

https://www.acma.gov.au/contact-cabling-registrar

[PKTKS]

For those wondering, no I can't just do this myself. That is illegal and against the strata rules, and I'm on the strata executive comittee. Not exactly a good look if I just go around stringing my own stuff.

Do your (no DIY) electrical laws also cover running your own network cables?

Yes, you have to be licenced.

Here ... things are plastered and blocked ...

But only when you are doing that "commercially"
e.g. you have a (or need to have a) proper "license" to
do this and that.. kind of this and that..

Doing that for yourself - should be legal - at least here
things are insane but not that insane...

bottom line they have plastered and blocked so much
and over-priced  so much these licenses in which things
are just 5 generations below the reality..

folks doing this are stagnated in early 50s  mentality
and can not understand how fast things changed..
just a couple years ago.

for yourself at least (not commercially) licenses are still nuts..

Paul

[PKTKS]

I have an open cabling registration and have been licensed with Titab ever since they switched from the previous Austel Licence. You can do a search for a licensed cabler on the ACMA site below. In your case the nominated cabler will likely require a structured cabling endorsement as well.

https://www.acma.gov.au/contact-cabling-registrar

That  looks like and smells like just insane as here..

Renewals and payments of these "trainings" are just
a waste of time and money... for useless bureaucrats..

doing nothing...

Paul
 

[Muttley Snickers]

Just about everything now requires a license or registration, and many also implement additional endorsement requirements to add extra hurdles and additional costs. I don't really object to these if they raise the quality of standards and workmanship but generally speaking they don't, the NBN is a prime example of a dog's breakfast.....

[PKTKS]

Just about everything now requires a license or registration, and many also implement additional endorsement requirements to add extra hurdles and additional costs. I don't really object to these if they raise the quality of standards and workmanship but generally speaking they don't, the NBN is a prime example of a dog's breakfast.....

Almost same goes here..

the thing turns to be so lame ...

that some folks acquire such shit "licenses" just
to sell their signature on other people hard work.

A bunch of fuckwit idiots "trained" by morons
paid the very same morons... and start a business
of selling  "signature"  licenses ..

while competent folks are unable to enter a plastered
blocked market..

the licenses became the business.

of course the quality of the result is below deplorable

Paul

[msuffidy]

It depends on how much throughput you need and how cooperative your landlord is. The nicest way to do that would be to run ,or redirect an existing,  twisted pair cable between the 2 points in the walls. Maybe you could use a power line network approach. You could maybe do a fiber optic link and that could even work on a pipe on the side of the building.

[EEVblog]

It depends on how much throughput you need and how cooperative your landlord is.

I am the landlord, I own my office, and therefore own like 1% of the building or something.
I am on the executive strata comittee for the building that makes decision and approves/denies tennant requests for things.
If it's in the existing strata building by-laws then no permission is needed, but you do need to use approved and licenced data cablers.
For something like this it wouldn't go the strata comittee, as it doesn't really impact the building or other tenants, you simply request an approved data cabler to install whatever you need.
In this case there is one company that handles a lot of the work in the building, so I'd just get them to quote.

[Towger]

Hi Dave,
Any update on the new storage area?

[EEVblog]

Hi Dave,
Any update on the new storage area?

Documents stamped.
They are clearing it out now.
Not sure of exact date.

[EEVblog]

Update: Contracts set to exchange on the 15th July.
They are leaving a some book shelves and an office desk I can use a work bench.

[mansaxel]

Get someone to run an OM3 (or better) fiber.

Friends don't let friends run multimode. Pull 6 pairs 9/125 single mode plenum grade cable and splice them to a small wall box in both ends.  Bonus: There is an opportunity to buy gear and learn something, if you don't already own a splicer and know how to use it. (If you did, though, this would be a no-brainer. So am guessing not)

On those distances it'll do 100G with (relatively) cheap transceivers. 10GE is like 15 USD from the likes of fs,com up to 10km.

Edit: The installation of cable is probably equally expensive whether fiber or copper, per meter. If you can reach a place where there's telco grade (i.e. Cat 3 or lower) wiring to your present office, short-range DSL looks OK, BUT there always is the problem of mixing different *DSL encoding schemes in the same multipair cable. The systems that are assymetric, like ADSL and VDSL, count on the pseudo-interference situation of all pairs going the same direction and therefore noise being somewhat predictable. A link going the other way, like having the "CO" end in the office and the "subscriber" end in the basement, might wreak havoc with other peoples connections.

I THINK but my memories are shady, that SDSL (2 Mbit symmetric) is kinder in this regard, and will work.

Still, if you have the least chance of getting approval, I'd say fiber (and there I mean single mode and ONLY single mode) is very high on the desirability scale.

[nctnico]

Get someone to run an OM3 (or better) fiber.

Friends don't let friends run multimode. Pull 6 pairs 9/125 single mode plenum grade cable and splice them to a small wall box in both ends.  Bonus: There is an opportunity to buy gear and learn something, if you don't already own a splicer and know how to use it. (If you did, though, this would be a no-brainer. So am guessing not)

On those distances it'll do 100G with (relatively) cheap transceivers. 10GE is like 15 USD from the likes of fs,com up to 10km.

Edit: The installation of cable is probably equally expensive whether fiber or copper, per meter. If you can reach a place where there's telco grade (i.e. Cat 3 or lower) wiring to your present office, short-range DSL looks OK, BUT there always is the problem of mixing different *DSL encoding schemes in the same multipair cable. The systems that are assymetric, like ADSL and VDSL, count on the pseudo-interference situation of all pairs going the same direction and therefore noise being somewhat predictable. A link going the other way, like having the "CO" end in the office and the "subscriber" end in the basement, might wreak havoc with other peoples connections.

I THINK but my memories are shady, that SDSL (2 Mbit symmetric) is kinder in this regard, and will work.

Still, if you have the least chance of getting approval, I'd say fiber (and there I mean single mode and ONLY single mode) is very high on the desirability scale.

Could be a nice project to do a video on as well.... It is good to know a bit about fiber based ethernet even if you are an electronics engineer. Chances are high you will encounter it at some point as part of a project that has an ethernet interface.

[Monkeh]

Get someone to run an OM3 (or better) fiber.

Friends don't let friends run multimode. Pull 6 pairs 9/125 single mode plenum grade cable and splice them to a small wall box in both ends.

Why? More money, more finicky, more expensive optics, and you gain.. what? And why, exactly, would you **** splicing it when you can get it preterminated and just get the job done?

[mansaxel]

Get someone to run an OM3 (or better) fiber.

Friends don't let friends run multimode. Pull 6 pairs 9/125 single mode plenum grade cable and splice them to a small wall box in both ends.

Why? More money, more finicky, more expensive optics, and you gain.. what? And why, exactly, would you **** splicing it when you can get it preterminated and just get the job done?

Background: I've been working with backbone Internet and campus networks for 20+ years, including designing and commissioning several country-wide networks, both on leased waves and dark fibre. I've been involved in every step of the process, from tender specification to site installs. The customers have typically been very demanding, on the level "a lost packet per month might be OK, if you have a good explanation". Today, I help run the WAN and LANs for a large broadcasting company, which is investing heavily in networked media technology. 

Believe me, there today are no good reasons for greenfielding multimode plant. A brownfield situation of course is different, but in the case we're talking about, there is no fiber at all.

• The cable is the same money.
• If you are not finicky, you are not doing it right. And that goes for any opticks. At work, we are slowly undoing years of bad practice wrt. patching fiber. A fiber connector is not, under any circumstances, to be patched into an ODF or a transceiver unless it has been microscoped and found clean according to ISO/IEC 14763-3. If it was not clean, one cleans it, and reinspects it, until it passes. If you are not doing it like this, you are a sloppy person, and negligent to good practice.
• The price of optics also is practically the same money. "single mode is expensive" is an outdated myth.
• Range, range, and then some range. If you are going to do last-millenium-speeds like 100Mbit, well, do keep up on the multimode. As soon as you hit 1GE, you need to be careful. 550 meters is not much, especially if you want to run two paths with diversity. 10GE and faster, which are the normal speeds today, are very constrained on even the best 50µm multimode cables.
• It is normally impossible to get installation-grade cable that is OK to traverse fire bulkheads preterminated, unless you are buying tactical grade cable, which in and of itself is going to be more expensive than the splicer. Besides, the sparky will look at you funny because you're doing it wrong.

[EEVblog]

Get someone to run an OM3 (or better) fiber.

Friends don't let friends run multimode. Pull 6 pairs 9/125 single mode plenum grade cable and splice them to a small wall box in both ends.

Why? More money, more finicky, more expensive optics, and you gain.. what? And why, exactly, would you **** splicing it when you can get it preterminated and just get the job done?

I don't see any advantage at all to using any type of optical fibre for this job.

[Monkeh]

...

Skipping the big multi-quote response: Big business and a quick link between rooms in one building (range.. jeez.) are two totally different worlds.

I bet you're fun at home - oh crap I moved the PC, time to get the microscope out..

[mansaxel]

I don't see any advantage at all to using any type of optical fibre for this job.

And it's your money. Simple as that.

[mansaxel]

...

Skipping the big multi-quote response: Big business and a quick link between rooms in one building (range.. jeez.) are two totally different worlds.

I have worked more than one place where links inside the same facility (building, even) have been a challenge to the length limit for 1GE over multimode.  10G in that situation is just hopeless. We tore out all multimode cabling and replaced it with 9/125 all over, because it was so *bleeep*ing annoying to try to build short enough links. As I wrote upthread, one path might be possible, but if you want two, dispersed, to safeguard against sparkies with a cable cutter, or fire, one of them usually ends up on the scenic route.

Besides, that "quick link" usually ends up being a vital component in something 2 years down the line, so it pays to do it right from the start.

I bet you're fun at home - oh crap I moved the PC, time to get the microscope out..

My PC's are on either GE copper or wifi (laptops and mobiles/tablets). The switches in different parts of the house and garage are interconnected with single mode fibre, at either 1 or 10GE speeds. When I move one of those inter-switch links, yes, the scope comes out. The servers are on 1 or 10G copper (DAC cables, as they're in the same rack as the core switch) as needed.

This is applied engineering, fueled by hard won experience. Not religion or dogma. I'm simply trying to solve tomorrows problems today, by doing things right from the start. At work or at home.

[Monkeh]

And again, the context is being totally ignored in favour of your context.

I don't actually disagree with you, in the context of critical links in serious infrastructure. Outside of that context, requirements are different and the time, energy, and money expended is not necessarily worth it. The only reason fibre even comes up here is the potential for the run to be on the long side for copper - which is to say, boring even for OM3 at 40Gbps.

[capt bullshot]

A) The existing TP phone lines.

There used to be stuff than can use single twisted pair lines as networking connections. I've got a pair of these in my basement, AFAIR they can do a whopping 1MBit/s (symmetrically). But it's quite old stuff, faster ones could be available. 10MBit/s single pair ethernet hardware exists today, intended for long lines. So all you need would be a single TP phone line patched from the office to the bunker. If you can manage to get two pairs patched, simply try ordinary 100MBit/s ethernet. As people say, 100MBit/s  "works over wet string", and you could try to force it to 10MBit/s.

[Towger]

All we can do now in wait for Dave to get possession of the new area.  For all we know where may be existing wiring in the room going back the the comms room. 

[EEVblog]

All we can do now in wait for Dave to get possession of the new area.  For all we know where may be existing wiring in the room going back the the comms room.

From what I saw, no. And you wouldn't expect there to be either, it's just a basement garage storage room. You are lucky to get a power point let alone comms in these places.

[EEVblog]

I don't see any advantage at all to using any type of optical fibre for this job.

And it's your money. Simple as that.

Fibre is cheaper than ethernt by how much?
I know copper is expensive, but I expect most of the cost is the labour to pull the cable and connect it all.
Fibre will require boxes at either end that I'd have to buy too, surely nulling out any saving in fibre vs ethernet.

[EEVblog]

And again, the context is being totally ignored in favour of your context.
I don't actually disagree with you, in the context of critical links in serious infrastructure. Outside of that context, requirements are different and the time, energy, and money expended is not necessarily worth it. The only reason fibre even comes up here is the potential for the run to be on the long side for copper - which is to say, boring even for OM3 at 40Gbps.

I'd be happy to get a 10Mbps link in the storage unit, just enough for a basic internet connection.

[Monkeh]

I don't see any advantage at all to using any type of optical fibre for this job.

And it's your money. Simple as that.

Fibre is cheaper than ethernt by how much?
I know copper is expensive, but I expect most of the cost is the labour to pull the cable and connect it all.
Fibre will require boxes at either end that I'd have to buy too, surely nulling out any saving in fibre vs ethernet.

Well, fibre is ethernet, but pedantics aside: It's not, outside the case of running 10Gbps links (or faster..), where copper modules are frightful and fibre is dirty cheap. It is, however, a problem solver if the run pushes or exceeds the limits of copper.

If you can get a phone pair connected between the unit and your office you could hack some powerline units to use it, or try and source some point to point DSL gear, but that's usually sinfully expensive for no good reason. Never know what will fall out if you give fleabay a shake, though.

If a new cable needs running you'll have to hire someone to do it, so you could just as easily leave it up to them how they solve it.

[EEVblog]

A) The existing TP phone lines.

There used to be stuff than can use single twisted pair lines as networking connections. I've got a pair of these in my basement, AFAIR they can do a whopping 1MBit/s (symmetrically). But it's quite old stuff, faster ones could be available. 10MBit/s single pair ethernet hardware exists today, intended for long lines. So all you need would be a single TP phone line patched from the office to the bunker. If you can manage to get two pairs patched, simply try ordinary 100MBit/s ethernet. As people say, 100MBit/s  "works over wet string", and you could try to force it to 10MBit/s.

Yes, I used to use the phone lines for my VDSL internet, and I got just over 100Mbps or something for the 50m run, but had an 8M/8M connection:


And that video shows only 23m from my wall to the comms cupboard in the basement, I thought it would be double that. I don't actually believe that figure though, it has to be longer, as it's 13m from my door to the cupord down the corridor where the cable then goes down 5 sories to the MDF room. So I'd say 40m tosp to the MDF room. Then probably another 20m to the storage room. So the entire run using ethernet would be well under 100m.

[EEVblog]

If a new cable needs running you'll have to hire someone to do it, so you could just as easily leave it up to them how they solve it.

The best way for me is simply copper ethernet. Just plug a cable into my existing switch in the lab and then to an RJ45 on the wall in the storage unit.
And that's what I'll ask them to try and do unless they advise that's not possble for some reason.
I've got maybe 60-70m run, and copper is supposed to do 100m, so I don't see why everyon is making a fuss over this?
It's only if they can't physically pull a CAT5 cable though, or there is some other legal or physical issue.

[Monkeh]

If a new cable needs running you'll have to hire someone to do it, so you could just as easily leave it up to them how they solve it.

The best way for me is simply copper ethernet. Just plug a cable into my existing switch in the lab and then to an RJ45 on the wall in the storage unit.
And that's what I'll ask them to try and do unless they advise that's not possble for some reason.

It's just down to the length of the route. Your initial guesstimate was 70m, which is a number which makes me nervous (cable routes aren't always as straightforward as people want them to be), but if it slips in under 90m one way or another you're golden. If you wanted to chew on big files on a NAS all day I'd advise fibre for almost any run outside of a single room, but as that's not what you're needing..

[EEVblog]

It's just down to the length of the route. Your initial guesstimate was 70m, which is a number which makes me nervous (cable routes aren't always as straightforward as people want them to be), but if it slips in under 90m one way or another you're golden. If you wanted to chew on big files on a NAS all day I'd advise fibre for almost any run outside of a single room, but as that's not what you're needing..

No, my NAS would stay in the LAB. I just need some form or rudimentary internet connection in the storage unit. Even a few Mb connection would do. I could use cellular if that's possible, as I have a spare SIM card with enough data. But I'd prefer to just use my existing lab internet connection and pay the one-off install cost.

[mansaxel]

I don't see any advantage at all to using any type of optical fibre for this job.

And it's your money. Simple as that.

Fibre is cheaper than ethernt by how much?
I know copper is expensive, but I expect most of the cost is the labour to pull the cable and connect it all.
Fibre will require boxes at either end that I'd have to buy too, surely nulling out any saving in fibre vs ethernet.

In this bracket, SoHo installs, the initial costs are heavily in favour of copper, mostly because the requirement to either own a splicer or hire someone with a splicer to do it for you drives tooling/work cost up. The cable pull is probably the same money. The actual cable price is probably roughly comparable, and at any rate minor compared to what the work will cost.

The things that make fiber interesting are

• Range
• Bandwidth
• Interference immunity
• Galvanic isolation
• Better match to "how things are done" in commercial facility installs, with fibre between floors. (and resulting easier acceptance)
• The Challenge
• Why not?

If you're just needing bandwidth for a camera and an access point to get connectivity when you're infrequently there, get a ethernet-over-phone-lines modem setup. If you decide on fiber, later, just skip multimode. Then all will be well. 

[EEVblog]

I don't see any advantage at all to using any type of optical fibre for this job.

And it's your money. Simple as that.

Fibre is cheaper than ethernt by how much?
I know copper is expensive, but I expect most of the cost is the labour to pull the cable and connect it all.
Fibre will require boxes at either end that I'd have to buy too, surely nulling out any saving in fibre vs ethernet.

In this bracket, SoHo installs, the initial costs are heavily in favour of copper, mostly because the requirement to either own a splicer or hire someone with a splicer to do it for you drives tooling/work cost up. The cable pull is probably the same money. The actual cable price is probably roughly comparable, and at any rate minor compared to what the work will cost.

The things that make fiber interesting are

• Range
• Bandwidth
• Interference immunity
• Galvanic isolation
• Better match to "how things are done" in commercial facility installs, with fibre between floors. (and resulting easier acceptance)
• The Challenge
• Why not?

If you're just needing bandwidth for a camera and an access point to get connectivity when you're infrequently there, get a ethernet-over-phone-lines modem setup. If you decide on fiber, later, just skip multimode. Then all will be well. 

or I could just run CAT5 and it's job done 
No stupid boxes at either end to power and configure and keep working.
I've got better things to spend my time on than the "challenge" of getting some other system working.

[Brumby]

KISS works for me as well.  (Not that my opinion is worth anything here.)

[David Hess]

• Galvanic isolation

The advantage of the galvanic isolation provided by fiber cannot be overstated if you live in an area with thunderstorms, and it is reasonably inexpensive.

[Brumby]

I know where Dave's lab is - and I've been living in the general area all my life.

Thunderstorms are not a big consideration for most things.  I've had external TV antennae for decades and never suffered from the lack of lightning protection.  While a risk, it is very low.

When we start talking about inside office buildings, the risk is even less (unless there's something about office buildings of which I am unaware.)

[mansaxel]

Just a quick note -- TME are offering low smoke jacketed installation grade cable in 8 strands G.652 SMF at 0,80 € per meter in 100m lengths -- so, it is basically the same as Cat 6. The price difference is that a splicer costs more than a LSA-Plus tool 

[EEVblog]

I know where Dave's lab is - and I've been living in the general area all my life.
Thunderstorms are not a big consideration for most things.  I've had external TV antennae for decades and never suffered from the lack of lightning protection.  While a risk, it is very low.
When we start talking about inside office buildings, the risk is even less (unless there's something about office buildings of which I am unaware.)

Correct. And the power is all underground, as it is also for residential in our area also including my house.

[EEVblog]

Just a quick note -- TME are offering low smoke jacketed installation grade cable in 8 strands G.652 SMF at 0,80 € per meter in 100m lengths -- so, it is basically the same as Cat 6. The price difference is that a splicer costs more than a LSA-Plus tool 

and you need equipment both ends also.

[EEVblog]

Settlement tomorrow!
Although it's unlikely I can do anything this week with it as I'm busy with other personal stuff.

[Brumby]

Celebrate with a Perrier!

[EEVblog]

I might have time for a walkthrough video today if I get the keys.
The exchange is happening at 12:30pm today and probably involves two trenchcoat wearing solcictors exchanging keys and bags of cash in a dark underground carpark.
They'll call me when it's done.

Now with two storge units and an office, I think I might change the locks to a single key for convenience.

[Ed.Kloonk]

 

Ha. If experience has taught me anything it will be a couple of secretaries doing the actual conveyancing.

[EEVblog]

Ha. If experience has taught me anything it will be a couple of secretaries doing the actual conveyancing.

That'll be $1800 please.

[EEVblog]

[Ed.Kloonk]

First

[Ed.Kloonk]

That pole is perfect for keeping the gimp tied up.

[Muttley Snickers]

Nice.   

In regards to that big board, If permissible I would dynabolt a 90 x 45 horizontal pine stud to the wall then fix a few hinges and add a couple of hinged legs, this could act as a foldup assembly or packing bench if required. Also, if you are going to keep stock in that store room check whether it will be covered under your insurance policy. If you are running cabling for the network also consider whether you need to run some additional security cabling as well.

[EEVblog]

In regards to that big board, If permissible

It's mine, I hereby authorise! 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Re internet - just turn up with a  high-vis, hard-hat and a roll of cable - nobody's gonna notice another wire in the ducting.
Is the power metered seperately? If not, you did say it was next to your parking space - free charging!

[Ed.Kloonk]

^ He's right, you know.

The only way to upset the apple cart is to park in somebody's God given car spot.

[EEVblog]

Re internet - just turn up with a  high-vis, hard-hat and a roll of cable - nobody's gonna notice another wire in the ducting.
Is the power metered seperately? If not, you did say it was next to your parking space - free charging!

Not metered, same as my bunker.

Actually not right next to my parking spot, it's quite a few spots over, not something you could string up an extension cord to unfortunately. As Ed said though, parking spots are god given.
There are a few power points scattered around the carpark.
There is actually no cable trough running to the storage unit, power and lights are through the concrete slab roof. So any comms cable will have to be run either in a new conduit or maybe along the top of the air ducting that conveniently comes from the MDF room.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Not metered, same as my bunker.

Actually not right next to my parking spot, it's quite a few spots over, not something you could string up an extension cord to unfortunately.

Yeah but who'd notice another cable clipped to the wall...

[EEVblog]

Not metered, same as my bunker.

Actually not right next to my parking spot, it's quite a few spots over, not something you could string up an extension cord to unfortunately.

Yeah but who'd notice another cable clipped to the wall...

All those who know I drive an EV. I wouldn't get away with installing a 20m extension cord across the roof.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Not metered, same as my bunker.

Actually not right next to my parking spot, it's quite a few spots over, not something you could string up an extension cord to unfortunately.

Yeah but who'd notice another cable clipped to the wall...

All those who know I drive an EV. I wouldn't get away with installing a 20m extension cord across the roof.

I dunno man. With the right amount of vans with orange flashing lights. Some strategiclty placed witches hats. For good measure, have a dude with a clipboard and a high vis vest that reads C*v*d Inspector.

Random ppl be like ...----------->>>>>>>>>>>! [poof!]

[PlainName]

Now's your chance to develop wireless power charging and show those scammers how it should be done.

[EEVblog]

Inspection of the cable run.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I'd imagine there would be plenty of spare pairs in those multicore phone cables running down to the MDF room

[PlainName]

Pneumatics. No-one else is using that air vent so you could stick a speaker at one end and microphone at the other and play modem warbling sounds. Bandwidth not so hot, but think of the YouTube videos you could do!

[EEVblog]

I'd imagine there would be plenty of spare pairs in those multicore phone cables running down to the MDF room

I only have 12 or so spare pairs in my lab.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I'd imagine there would be plenty of spare pairs in those multicore phone cables running down to the MDF room

I only have 12 or so spare pairs in my lab.

So if they come out in the MDF room, that saves the hardest part of the cable run, through those full-up floor holes.

[Fubawuba]

As suggested before, have a look at fiber optical connections. It's more affordable than you think.
You could for example use 2x media converter (RJ45<->SFP Cage) + 2x SFP(+) module, + fiber cable.

The distance is not a problem and the fiber cable (it's usually a twin cable with TX+RX fiber) is very thin (usually +/- 2mm sleeve per fiber) and quite flexible, but it's also a bit fragile (bend radius, thin sleeve, etc.), so you might want to put it in a PVC pipe or tube for additional protection.

You can find fiber twin-cable even on large spools for extra long length, but attaching LC connectors your self is complicated (LC connectors are the most common type of fiber connectors for home & garden use ) so it's better to use a prefab cable.

Common combinations:
For short range (max range <550m, but also limited by module RX sensor sensitivity and TX output power) you can use multi-mode (850nm) SFP(+) modules with OM3 or OM4 fiber with LC connectors.
For long range you can use single-mode SFP(+) modules (usually 1310nm) and OS2 fiber with LC connectors.

You can find very affordable SFP's in the 100M-10G range.

Example:
2x 1G TP link media converter + 2x FS.com 1G SFP module of choice (for example 1000BASE-SX) + OM4 fiber twin cable with LC connectors (TX+RX)

With the fiber cable in place you can always upgrade to higher speeds by replacing the media converters and SFP modules (as long as it has LC connectors and is suitable for the fiber you used).

In any case this kind of solution will be more reliable and will have a faster connection than any kind of wireless connection (especially in a building full of metal) and it's easier to handle than RJ45 network cable (with a prefab cable, in your situation).

[Monkeh]

Inspection of the cable run.

So approximately 15m to that cupboard. About 3.4m per floor (200mm per block x 17), or 16m down to the correct floor. I reckon about 25m to the 90 degree on the duct, maybe another 10m from there to the bunker wall. Your 70m guess isn't too far off the mark. I'd guess 80m for a real cable run. Copper should be fine, although I doubt they'll want to just run it on top of the duct - but that route will probably be fine to follow.

I would still run fibre, but that's me. Also, as to the 'box on both ends' argument - you may as well have wifi down in the bunker, so no extra box needed down there (APs with SFP slots for fibre are readily available).

[EEVblog]

I'd imagine there would be plenty of spare pairs in those multicore phone cables running down to the MDF room

I only have 12 or so spare pairs in my lab.

So if they come out in the MDF room, that saves the hardest part of the cable run, through those full-up floor holes.

It's way better than that.
There is already CAT5 cable trucks from the basement MDF to the floor patch panel.
AND I forgot that I already had a unterminated CAT5E running from my office to somewhere down the corridor, almost certainly the comms cupboard, but I've never actually followed it. A viewer emailed me saying that every office should have one given what looks like CAT 5 trunks, and sure enough, he's right.

I looked in the comms record book but could not find any record of the (unterminated) CAT5E cable going back from my office. Just my old VDSL line and old phone line.
So looks like I have at the very least already got CAT5 down to the basement MDF (about 35m). So could either just extend that from the basement MDF to the storage room, or put in or use an existing if available ethernet switch.
So likely just have to pay for the cable run from the basement MDF to the storage room and patching.

[EEVblog]

As suggested before, have a look at fiber optical connections. It's more affordable than you think.
You could for example use 2x media converter (RJ45<->SFP Cage) + 2x SFP(+) module, + fiber cable.

No need when there is already CAT5 cable trunks running to the basement MDF. See my previous post.

[Brumby]

So looks like I have at the very least already got CAT5 down to the basement MDF (about 35m). So could either just extend that from the basement MDF to the storage room, or put in or use an existing if available ethernet switch.
So likely just have to pay for the cable run from the basement MDF to the storage room and patching.

Sounds like things just got a lot easier!

[hans]

Sounds good. 70m to 80m will probably work fine, with a bit of luck close to Gigabit speeds if it's a decent Cat-rated cable. Alternatively you could ask/see if a switch is available in the MDF room to buffer the signal.

Small anecdote on ethernet runs: I used to work at an agriculture company that was located on a farm. Only ADSL was available at that location, so we needed a proper alternative for the business internet. Luckily, it was the first farm out of town, so we ran a 250m-ish long ethernet line through the farm field to some pensioner living in the nearby street. There was a IP67 junction box halfway with a switch to buffer the signal. That run was good enough to reach the speeds of the 300Mbps cable plan.
That setup worked fine for years... only exception was when thunder struck at one point and the ethernet ports on all the connected equipment was killed... However, since the alternative was 2Mbps ADSL, that was only a slight inconvenience.

[Towger]

I have lost count of Mr Carlson's labs, I think this is lab 4 and he says be is starting to work on another...
TEA is strong in this one:
https://youtu.be/35w8iVYy-6c

[Brumby]

I don't think I can see Dave going THAT far down that rabbit hole.

Besides, he doesn't have the voice for it.      (For which I am eternally grateful!)