Forum Moderation

[brucehoult]

There are so many other things that to me have far higher value: Wikipedia. Topical forums like this. Reddit. YouTube. And many more.

What am I just not seeing in Twitter?

This is getting pretty far from the thread topic, but ok, I'll humour you.

You'll find plenty of people who'll tell you that Reddit is a cesspit, though I also find it useful.

I guess the shortest explanation is "Twitter is for things you didn't know you needed to know". You follow people not topics. If you pick interesting people then from time to time they'll post or RT/quote tweet something "hey this is interesting"

The thing that got me on to Twitter after friends trying to persuade me for several years, was a passenger on a ferry on the Hudson river posting a photo of an airliner that had just landed in the water nearby.

As you noted, many businesses offer support on X. In many cases a post on X will get a better and faster response than a company's own forums, or email. Just as a couple of examples WCH's CTO is active and responsive on X. Sipeed often conduct polls on X about which future product they should work on next, or which specific options people would like in them. Many other companies show roadmaps or photos or videos of product prototypes on X that you won't find anywhere else.

It is generally the case that if you read X you're 24 to 48 hours ahead of MSM media reporting.

Recently X has added "Grok", an LLM which is constantly updated from the latest news, including tweets. Here's an up to the minute response from Grok:

[Monkeh]

As you noted, many businesses offer support on X. In many cases a post on X will get a better and faster response than a company's own forums, or email.

Which is a black mark of galactic proportions against those companies. Requiring someone to have an account with a social media platform and become the product of that platform to receive support or even information about service status is unacceptable.

[brucehoult]

As you noted, many businesses offer support on X. In many cases a post on X will get a better and faster response than a company's own forums, or email.

Which is a black mark of galactic proportions against those companies. Requiring someone to have an account with a social media platform and become the product of that platform to receive support or even information about service status is unacceptable.

Well ... that's an opinion, albeit an extreme one.

An account doesn't cost anything, you're not forced to post photos of your lunch, and you can DM those companies, not only make public posts.

How's it different to "being a product" on eevblog forum?

[Andy Chee]

I'm a free-speech absolutist in a society of fundamentally decent people.

What does that actually mean?

It means they support absolute free-speech, provided participants only engage in civil discourse (i.e. no trolling)

[EEVblog]

Obvious example is x/twatter, which has become a cesspit of deliberate lies, evasions, and worse.

X is what you make of it.
Many people don't know how to use it. You can choose to follow and see only the people and posts you want to see.
It's like complaing that Youtube has a bunch of garbage channels you don't like, when you can simply choose to subscribe to the channels you like and only see that content if that's what you want.

ABSOLUTELY 100% correct.

X is fabulous, the best resource on the planet, better than it's ever been. You don't have to love Elon Musk to think so -- I follow plenty of people who criticise him constantly, but stick on the site. Some of them have quietly or loudly disappeared to BlueSky or Mastodon or somewhere and then come back when they've found it's not all that.

Thunderf00t is one such person, as is Common Sense Skeptic. If you think Thunderf00t doesn't like Musk, watch some of CSS's videos, and he's 100% more vocal on X about Musk than Thunderf00t is.
Jeri Ellsworth deleted her X account and moved to Bluesky. My Amp Hour cohost Chris Gammell left X for Mastodon.
Adrian's Digital Basement is another one that abaondoned X for BlueSky
There seems to be a small cohort of prominent engineering people who left X for Mastodon when Twitter was sold, and then another cohort who quit for Bluesky when the orange man was elected.

[Monkeh]

An account doesn't cost anything, you're not forced to post photos of your lunch, and you can DM those companies, not only make public posts.

It costs an email address, even if it's one dedicated to the purpose. It costs me maintaining an account on another site just to do business with a totally unrelated company. It costs said site having access to my entire interaction with that company.

How's it different to "being a product" on eevblog forum?

This forum isn't building a profile of what I read, who I follow, how long I stare at any particular post. It's not trying to tell me what I want to read. It certainly isn't taking money from people to push their posts at me or portray them as being trustworthy. And I do not in any way have to have an account here to consume information, only to participate in discussions. The same cannot be said of what Twitter has devolved to.

[Buriedcode]

The longer a thread goes on, the more of those who don't really have strong opinions drop out - either because they feel they have nothing to add, or, have been jumped on by one side, with selective quotes, and driven out. 

So ultimately after a few pages you just have those who are fully invested in arguing - either side - about whatever the topic has become.  These are generally those with the more extreme views, and the time to sit at their PC, with the topic on their browser hitting refresh so they can post another self-satisfactory argument.

It just concentrates as these people try to drag the arguments into whatever their pet subject/gripe of the day is until someone lets slip their real views and the thread gets locked.

I get it, I like arguing too, and often I don't like when "people on the internet" are wrong.  But I've learned its best to just not engage.  My opinion is rarely changed, and theirs certainly won't be (especially those who claim "hey, I'm open to debate, and to other views" when they clearly aren't).   Life is just easier when I (try to) ignore such topics.

As for what admin can do - honestly I have no idea.  One mans free speech is another mans crossed line.  And you can't just have "free speech" because again.. its easier for extremists to kick out moderates than it is for moderates to kick out extremists, so it inevitably goes south pretty quickly (like twitter lol).  I appreciate its a very difficult task, and frankly I'm surprised there isn't more "drama" here - or maybe I've managed to keep my head in the sand for once?

[EEVblog]

As you noted, many businesses offer support on X. In many cases a post on X will get a better and faster response than a company's own forums, or email. Just as a couple of examples WCH's CTO is active and responsive on X.

Youtube is another big example. Literally impossible to get Youtube support anywhere but on X.
When a Youtube account gets hacked, the response time from Youtube on X seems directly related to how many retweets the creator gets. Good luck being a Youtuber who just quit X and you need support urgenty.

[Nominal Animal]

This thread shows how problematic the polarization in the global culture is.

I'm about 99.3% sure that no poster in this thread would knowingly harm any other poster in this thread, yet they communicate as if they were mortal enemies.  "If you do X, you are evil", with X being on the order of eating cereal instead of muesli in the morning.  How much do you believe your personal support or opposition actually affects global politics, state-level actions?  No, be realistic.  Now, how much global power and effect do you think the other person with a "evil political opinion" has?  Is it enough to vilify them?  I don't think so.

It is very unhealthy to oneself to think in such utterly polarized way.  They used to call it "thinking in black and white", a cognitive distortion.

Just think of what would have happened in 1983, if Stanislav Petrov had been as sure about his "enemies" as people today present themselves online.

[EEVblog]

There's a lot of rose tinted historical revisionism around twitter. Prior to Musk owning it, there were always abhorrent opinions on there, it's just that the people saying those things were in a socially privileged positions and never faced backlash for it.

I'm struggling to see how this has changed. Apart, of course, from the abhorrent positions shifting to the other side of the political spectrum in places.

The change is that you won't be instantly banned for your opinion, your politics, or simply offending someone. Under the old Twitter, literally anyone who wasn't extreme left was one post away from being banned, up to an including the sitting US president. Or if someone dug through your old posts and found something the powers that be didn't like, banned for those as well.
We were all hanging under the Sword of Damocles
It's still like that on places like Reddit, BlueSky, and Mastodon.

[EEVblog]

This thread shows how problematic the polarization in the global culture is.
I'm about 99.3% sure that no poster in this thread would knowingly harm any other poster in this thread, yet they communicate as if they were mortal enemies.

I once met a forum member who, shall we say, didn't seem to like me at all, to the point that they kept a public website record of all their posts I had to moderate on the forum.
But they noticed me at an event, came up and said hi, and we got on great for the next few hours. No animosity what so ever

[Monkeh]

There's a lot of rose tinted historical revisionism around twitter. Prior to Musk owning it, there were always abhorrent opinions on there, it's just that the people saying those things were in a socially privileged positions and never faced backlash for it.

I'm struggling to see how this has changed. Apart, of course, from the abhorrent positions shifting to the other side of the political spectrum in places.

The change is that you won't be instantly banned for your opinion, your politics, or simply offending someone. Under the old Twitter, literally anyone who wasn't extreme left was one post away from being banned, up to an including the sitting US president. Or if someone dug through your old posts and found something the powers that be didn't like, banned for those as well.
We were all hanging under the Sword of Damocles
It's still like that on places like Reddit, BlueSky, and Mastodon.

Except people have been banned for their opinion, politics, and offending people on the New Twitter. And fired, of course. Then there was the banning of the Mastodon account and people mentioning it - but that was just a mistake, you understand. Along with links to other social media platforms. As far as I'm aware, some journalists critical of Musk or his companies remain banned. And speaking of old posts, yes, some of those accounts remain banned because they refuse to remove old posts the new powers that be don't like.

Mind you, I'm not exactly actively keeping up with the specifics - Twitter was barely relevant to me when it was viewable.

[EEVblog]

 

Mind you, I'm not exactly actively keeping up with the specifics - Twitter was barely relevant to me when it was viewable.

And if you look at the specifics I think you'll find the reasons weren't the same as Twitter 1.0, and practically all of them are back after a temp ban.
The new X is a vastly, VASTLY safer free speech platform than the old Twitter. Heck, Elon even let Alex Jones back on the platform, a man he viscerally hated, the ultimate litmus test.

[Monkeh]

Mind you, I'm not exactly actively keeping up with the specifics - Twitter was barely relevant to me when it was viewable.

And if you look at the specifics I think you'll find the reason wasn't the same as Twitter 1.0
The new X is a vastly, VASTLY safer free speech platform than the old Twitter.

By specifics I mean who remains banned. It's only free until you annoy the dictator.

I wonder, just how many people are being banned that you don't notice.. because they're no longer the ones in your following circles?

Bear in mind, I can no longer see anything happening there. It was closed off and keeping track of drama isn't my thing.

[bd139]

Mind you, I'm not exactly actively keeping up with the specifics - Twitter was barely relevant to me when it was viewable.

And if you look at the specifics I think you'll find the reasons weren't the same as Twitter 1.0, and practically all of them are back after a temp ban.
The new X is a vastly, VASTLY safer free speech platform than the old Twitter. Heck, Elon even let Alex Jones back on the platform, a man he viscerally hated, the ultimate litmus test.

Ok I'm off the rollercoaster now.

Dave you've got a fucking brain worm mate.

You're part of the problem.

[Siwastaja]

Definitely no increase in problem threads. Quite the opposite I would say. Dave has made some good improvements like rename "General Chat" to "General Technical chat", and clarify rules about unnecessary problem subjects like Covid.

Moderation against off-topic is just fine. Crap threads die out pretty quickly either on its own, or get locked.

If you find yourself wasting time in those kind of threads (which objectively take 0.001% of bandwidth on this forum), you need to look in the mirror.

My guesstimate is that you are just pissed that your own echo chamber is leaking, that others express different view than yours, probably amplified by the fact that deep down you understand that your own ideals did not work in real world after all. Again, if you feel that is a problem, you need to look in the mirror.

Either shut your ears from stuff you don't want to hear, which on this forum is easier than most places on the Internets, or start listening to differing views and widen your world-view.

[EEVblog]

Mind you, I'm not exactly actively keeping up with the specifics - Twitter was barely relevant to me when it was viewable.

And if you look at the specifics I think you'll find the reasons weren't the same as Twitter 1.0, and practically all of them are back after a temp ban.
The new X is a vastly, VASTLY safer free speech platform than the old Twitter. Heck, Elon even let Alex Jones back on the platform, a man he viscerally hated, the ultimate litmus test.

Ok I'm off the rollercoaster now.
Dave you've got a fucking brain worm mate.
You're part of the problem.

What problem exactly?
Because I support free speech and am against bannings and cancellations for political and social reasons?
Because in all my experinece on Twitter/X (including attempted cancellations and baning of my account) it's clearly vastly safer now on X than it was on twitter?
I'm genuinely curious what you think this "brain worm" is that I've got and what it's doing to me? 

[EEVblog]

Mind you, I'm not exactly actively keeping up with the specifics - Twitter was barely relevant to me when it was viewable.

And if you look at the specifics I think you'll find the reason wasn't the same as Twitter 1.0
The new X is a vastly, VASTLY safer free speech platform than the old Twitter.

By specifics I mean who remains banned. It's only free until you annoy the dictator.

I wonder, just how many people are being banned that you don't notice.. because they're no longer the ones in your following circles?

Ok, possible, please name them.
Common Sense Skeptic is one such example where he vicerally attacks Elon in almost every post, to the point that I had to unfollow him for a while because he did it so often it was polluting my timeline. He makes popular videos attacking Elon in every possible way, and he's not banned.
Barnacules Nerdgasm is another high profile person against Elon, also not banned.

[John B]

On the topic of youtube or other business support, the element of social judgement became a large motivator vs private communication channels.

If you were to send an email to youtube support privately, expect to get ignored. However if there is enough public outrage on a certain issue like channel deletions and demonetisations, you stood a better chance of having that addressed. Of course you had to have a cause that was popular enough, but I guess it's a step up.

[brucehoult]

Mind you, I'm not exactly actively keeping up with the specifics - Twitter was barely relevant to me when it was viewable.

And if you look at the specifics I think you'll find the reasons weren't the same as Twitter 1.0, and practically all of them are back after a temp ban.
The new X is a vastly, VASTLY safer free speech platform than the old Twitter. Heck, Elon even let Alex Jones back on the platform, a man he viscerally hated, the ultimate litmus test.

Ok I'm off the rollercoaster now.

There are many things on which I disagree with Dave, but he is 100% correct on this.

Dave you've got a fucking brain worm mate.

You're part of the problem.

A perfect example of the problem.

And one which, I daresay, will go completely unpunished.

[EEVblog]

Mind you, I'm not exactly actively keeping up with the specifics - Twitter was barely relevant to me when it was viewable.

And if you look at the specifics I think you'll find the reasons weren't the same as Twitter 1.0, and practically all of them are back after a temp ban.
The new X is a vastly, VASTLY safer free speech platform than the old Twitter. Heck, Elon even let Alex Jones back on the platform, a man he viscerally hated, the ultimate litmus test.

Ok I'm off the rollercoaster now.

There are many things on which I disagree with Dave, but he is 100% correct on this.

It's not just my opinion, it's a vastly held opinion that X doesn't even come close to Twitter, like not even many orders of magnitude close to the bannings that happened under the older Twitter.
I followed a ton of people personally who were banned on the old twitter. In the times of gamergate for example, and the social justice warriors being in charge of Twitter with their "trust and safety council" etc Not to even mention anything to do with covid.
Yet every time I hear an example of someone being banned on X now, if you actually look into the details they were temporarily banned for a legit reason (like doxing) and always eventually let back on.
I personally closely survivied several attemps to have my twitter banned.
It's widely known by everyone now that there is no longer any sword of Damocles hanging over your head. If you don't know this, I don't know what to tell you, you must not be involved in X much at all to not know this.

[tggzzz]

There are so many other things that to me have far higher value: Wikipedia. Topical forums like this. Reddit. YouTube. And many more.

What am I just not seeing in Twitter?

I guess the shortest explanation is "Twitter is for things you didn't know you needed to know". You follow people not topics.

I found the opposite... I used to follow topics, since those would tend to lead to things I didn't know I need to know. Following people tends to lead to repetitive views, and too often forms an echo chamber.

The thing that got me on to Twitter after friends trying to persuade me for several years, was a passenger on a ferry on the Hudson river posting a photo of an airliner that had just landed in the water nearby.

That was a long time ago, when twatter used to be reasonable. Twatter has changed too much.

It is generally the case that if you read X you're 24 to 48 hours ahead of MSM media reporting.

Recently X has added "Grok", an LLM which is constantly updated from the latest news, including tweets. Here's an up to the minute response from Grok:

"MSM media reporting" is a red flag phrase.

All LLMs hallucinate, and hallucinated news is extremely dangerous. The BBC had the strength and reach to call out an LLM's repeated hallucinations; not many organisations can do that. And if you think Grok doesn't/won't hallucinate, I have a bridge I can sell you.

There's also the very unpleasant aspect that people/companies/bots pay to have their pronouncements shoved in your face. Madame President and man-boy have shown how channels can be weaponised. So far the mods on this forum have stomped on LLM threads and responses, but I get the unverified feeling that some of the threads might as well have come from LLMs.

[PlainName]

This forum isn't building a profile of what I read, who I follow, how long I stare at any particular post.

I think you might be surprised.

[magic]

I'm about 99.3% sure that no poster in this thread would knowingly harm any other poster in this thread, yet they communicate as if they were mortal enemies.  "If you do X, you are evil", with X being on the order of eating cereal instead of muesli in the morning.  How much do you believe your personal support or opposition actually affects global politics, state-level actions?  No, be realistic.  Now, how much global power and effect do you think the other person with a "evil political opinion" has?  Is it enough to vilify them?  I don't think so.

You are part of the problem. If everybody agreed with me, we could get somewhere. But no, you will keep disagreeing.

[AVGresponding]

Obviously got to be a sweet spot between the two extremes, so the alternative to one isn't necessarily 100% the other.
Generally seems to work OK on here within the error margin, has to be said 

I think so too. But there will always be people like the OP who don't see it that way. They either want perfect moderation to their taste, or zero moderation.
I'm not criticising that, wanting that is fine, I can see the merits in both extremes, but the problem is what works in practice in the long run.

Personally, I'm more of a free speech absolutist, but I know what destroys forums and what works in practice. And I've seen countless times over-moderation destroy forum, and I've seen under or zero moderation destroy forums.

If that were true, then why did you delete the post of mansaxel (fortunately preserved for posterity in nested quotes), apparently on the sole word of Siwastaja? You did not engage with mansaxel at all prior to deletion.

Siwastaja is the one should be receiving a ban warning for unacceptable comments, afaic

It might not be something if it was taken in isolation. But:

• He is a union buster.
• Supporting the neo-nazi party in Germany
• Right hand upwards
• Supporting that orange disaster

And so on. Anyone awake, decent, competent, and aware of history should, even at the peril of own financial gains, stay the fuck away from him and his money-grabbing schemes.

Consider removing the Kremlin pro-denazification bot "mansaxel"s troll post (#433), too. That's one triggering further non-related AfD discussion.

Ok, done, but I'm not going through the rest of the thread. Hopefully people get the hint, no more nazi talk please, even if "Thunderf00t started it".