Author Topic: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.  (Read 13811 times)

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Offline PeterFW

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Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« on: March 30, 2016, 12:38:12 am »
Hello!
Im a bit grumpy, this is more a ramble then actual something of substance...

So... a few months ago i had an idea, started to do a lot of research and a few weeks back i began to put things together. All the while, i was determined to put what i learned on the web for everyone to benefit from it. (Allready dit that a bit, have a look at my post history, its really outdated though, by now).

There is nearly no real information about the thing on the web, a bit of false information and i could not find a single person with expertise who would answer a few of my quesions that are way over my head.

What i dit encounter however are dozens of people who tell me "Hey, that does not work!" and all i can show them the pictures that it works and all i want to do now is to establish a reliable process.

At this point, i am thinking, screw you guys, i will keep that to myself.
Annyone else ever had that feeling?

Greetings,
Peter
 
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Online ataradov

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2016, 01:21:58 am »
This is a complex issue. Typically this kind of reaction is evoked by something that is clearly impossible or nearly impossible to make. Like perpetual motion, for example.

What is your goal for sharing? You can publish your stuff "as as", with corresponding disclaimer, but then it is likely that no conversation will follow. And if you want conversation, then you need to present a proof that your thing works.
Alex
 
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Offline PeterFW

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2016, 01:32:08 am »
Typically this kind of reaction is evoked by something that is clearly impossible or nearly impossible to make.

It is nothing really special, selective copper plating, marking and etching of stainless steel in a randomly agitated bath, using modulated dc current.
I have copper plating 2 samples on my desk that turned out very well, have exceptional good adhesion and are about 4 weeks old.
But i still have problems geting reliable results and have not been able to pinpoint yet were the problem with the failed samples is.

In addition it seems i have a bit of a problem with the current density around edges and some chemical things that are a bit over my head.

Greetings,
Peter
 
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Online ataradov

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2016, 02:04:25 am »
I'm no expert on this topic and have no real interest for this, but it sounds like something that is not considered to be straightforward in the industry, so people are reluctant to believe.

If you keep on posting your results with continuous improvements, I'm pretty sure normal people will realize that you are not kidding and actually doing something.
Alex
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2016, 03:30:12 am »
What you may be seeing is a reflection of practical fact.  For reasons that somewhere between very few and no one understands this type of plating cannot reliably be done.  The fact that you have done it proves that it is possible.  But you have had quite a few failures.  Is it the temperature, the cleaning, some trace element in the plating solution?  You don't know yet, and since industry experts say it is impossible quite a few other people don't know.  A process that cannot be repeated consistently is commercially impossible.

I was once associated with a product based on a very specialized detector material.  A small batch of a dozen or so yielded four or five perfectly working examples.  A large development program was developed based on the use of this detector, but subsequent batches yielded zero percent.  Through dozens of batches.  It was many, many months before the process was dialed in enough to provide even the parts required for prototyping.  The program went on to production and was a tightrope all through production with yields periodically falling disastrously low and new factors found that were poisoning the process. 

I have no specialized knowledge to assist you, but will point out that it may be difficult to reliably achieve the results you have demonstrated.  It could be difficult only in the sense of learning the required controls, and then relatively easy to implement.  But it could also be difficult in the sense of being a process with an extremely small success window that requires either luck or tight control on several dozen parameters for success.
 

Offline PeterFW

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2016, 04:03:26 am »
What you may be seeing is a reflection of practical fact.  For reasons that somewhere between very few and no one understands this type of plating cannot reliably be done.

Yes, that is absolutely true.
What keeps me gooing at the moment is that other things work tremendously well, are dead simple and 90% repeatable, when i first started nearly everyone said, that it will never work.

For the moment, i just hope that they are wrong on this one as well.

Of course, the simple fact that, if it would work someone would do it, is absolutely on my mind.
All the time.

Quote
The fact that you have done it proves that it is possible.  But you have had quite a few failures.  Is it the temperature, the cleaning, some trace element in the plating solution?

Mhm, yes, i have considered that i might just have had luck with those two samples.
What i suspect at the moment that i got incredibly lucky on the temperature on those tries.

All the really interesting information is behind pay walls, when it comes to this sort of thing almost nothing is readily available. So man damn secrets.

Greetings,
Peter
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 04:05:12 am by PeterFW »
 

Offline GEuser

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2016, 04:29:17 am »
PeterFW about first post , imo it's a cycle that the net is going through at the moment regarding the "peoples" , I have recently just got back on the net after a year and a halfs break , I have noticed after looking about quickly a lot has changed , previously big sites/forums with a lot of information have really been trimmed down big time , heaps of files , pictures , general information that has been put up by the forum members has completely gone or has been severely trimmed , I recall this also happening around 6 or so years ago and it took a cupla years to be reinvigorated .

There are too many sites to list here that are common so it's just my general observation .

In association with that seems to be the mentality? of some said users , not all but there was a lot of $ people who did or contribute to the mentality of no $ = no nothing as all they were looking for is to make a $ .

But the above (about the $) still does not explain why all the other stuff has been trimmed , a lot has just Gone .

Cheers .
Soon
 

Offline 3141592

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2016, 05:24:46 am »
Maybe you would have better experience on a forum frequented by chemists and/or technology experts. It doesn't really sound like a subject EEs would be experts in. You could also try to ask a question on a suitable stackexchange site, or researchgate.

All the really interesting information is behind pay walls, when it comes to this sort of thing almost nothing is readily available. So man damn secrets.

If you are talking about academic publications, you may want to try Sci-Hub.
 

Offline PeterFW

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2016, 05:31:55 am »
Maybe you would have better experience on a forum frequented by chemists and/or technology experts.

I dit, this is the forum were i feel most at home, i felt like ranting so i came here :)

Quote
If you are talking about academic publications, you may want to try Sci-Hub.

That looks great, thank you very much!
 

Offline Don Hills

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2016, 09:07:40 am »
...  this is the forum were i feel most at home, i felt like ranting so i came here :) ...

Ranting about a chemical process problem in an EE forum is like wetting your pants in a dark suit... it gives you a warm feeling but nobody notices. :)

I hope you find your answers. Many years ago everyone told me you couldn't solder aluminium... so I managed to solder two small pieces of aluminium together with a soldering iron and standard tin/lead solder.  (I carefully scraped the mating surfaces clean in an oil bath first.)
 

Offline ElektroQuark

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2016, 09:57:52 am »
There/We are some chemists among forum users...

Offline altaic

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2016, 05:27:32 pm »
Also check out deepdyve.com-- served me very well in many different disciplines, covering many major journals. It's like $30/mo with few restrictions depending on the whitepaper. Two-week free trial, too. Definitely gotten my money's worth since I signed up a few months ago; I've read/skimmed hundreds of papers which would have otherwise cost me thousands of $ to purchase.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 05:29:29 pm by altaic »
 
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Offline PedroDaGr8

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2016, 03:53:25 pm »
There/We are some chemists among forum users...

yeah a few of us. I think there are two or three others that I know of (your would be number three or four).
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline acolomitchi

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2016, 07:05:23 am »

All the really interesting information is behind pay walls, when it comes to this sort of thing almost nothing is readily available. So man damn secrets.
There is a thing called sci-hub. Which has a twitter account as well, google-fu basics to get to it.
And on their twitter account logo (no need to follow them), there are some red-brownish site names, one with a ... shall we say, lachrymatory?... address (just in case the addresses are DNS-blocked in some countries that shall remain unnamed).

Please understand I'm not advising anything, just passing info around.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2016, 09:53:03 am »
The "success" of publishing info about processes is directly proportional to the number of people of the general public it can impact.
If lots of people see the use in it and benefit from it then a positive vibe grows and things become great. I work on an open source project that every user in the field can benefit from, it gives them a cheaper and more powerful alternative to other more common options and they're happy to have that.

What you do seems not to be something the average Joe would have a need for or understand how to do, it's something that would pretty much only find a use in industrial environments.
Industrial environments means some people are paying lots of $$$ for development and execution of solutions, means trade secrets etc. Whoever would have a use for that pays (or is paid) big bucks to do R&D, and they'll for sure look down on the little guy in his garage who had an idea they didn't have or found a way to do something that they didn't. To them you're either making them look stupid or potentially eating into their living, so for sure they won't acknowledge what you're doing, even less help you get there...

If you were part of one of the interested industrial groups you'd probably get funding, regognition and awards but as an individual you'll be denied as long as possible, until you've got something absolutely flawless and make a successful business out of it, where they just have no choice but to recognise it.

For us of course some established industry players aren't looking at us with a good eye for what we do, but the balance is positive becasue 10s of thousands of users are raving, which gives a good dynamic and that "can't be ignored" power.

But nothing of that is either specific to the net nor new at all... that's how society in general has worked for centuries, recognition and influence only comes through large groups.
 

Offline Ducttape

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2016, 12:33:44 pm »
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)
 
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Offline IconicPCB

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2016, 02:14:41 am »
So where did you ask the questions?
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2016, 04:53:56 am »
The world was flat at one point. And that was a fact.
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2016, 05:29:29 am »
Engineers are generally pretty blunt and will often say what they think.
No point getting upset about that, better off to do one of two think:
1) Ignore them
or
2) Challenge them to prove you are wrong. Engineers also like challenges.
THat has one of two outcomes:
a) If they can't come up with the goods, then ignore them.
or
b) If they do come up with the goods, except you are wrong and move on.

Welcome to the world of online engineering.
 
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Online EEVblog

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2016, 05:30:23 am »
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Unless the idea is just inherent crap, like solar roadways, uBeam, Batteriser etc
 
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2016, 02:03:23 pm »
Schopenhauer was of course right.  But he didn't feel it worth mentioning that many, many arrows are shot towards targets that miss, are lied about, or that many targets are seen by people with badly flawed vision.  And all of those arrows and bad targets are why so much skepticism exists about new and different thoughts.  And why the rewards are often great for those who pass the gauntlet of this skepticism.
 

Offline @rt

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2016, 06:41:17 am »
YouTube video detailing and demonstrating the process is pretty hard to argue with,
and sounds a lot easier than whatever you’re doing now.

A video also has more merit if it shows you face talking with it (if you’re up for that).

Someone can always cry fake, but then you can ask to see their attempt at repeating the process you showed them.

I have played around with some electroplating/etching with varying results.
Mostly to print text or a logo on one metal with another metal. Fun stuff, I found it quite enjoyable.





 

Offline Dubbie

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2016, 09:25:01 am »
Yes, note that the quote starts "All truths...." too many inventors misread it as "All ideas....."


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Offline Kilrah

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2016, 11:57:51 am »
Someone can always cry fake, but then you can ask to see their attempt at repeating the process you showed them.

That's flawed... when you consider something to be fake you won't attempt to repeat it since by definition you're sure it can't happen.
 

Offline @rt

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Re: Not wanting to share information on the web annymore.
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2016, 12:24:12 pm »

Well that’s the whole point. I would simply ask, “At what point of the process did it not work for you?”,
rather than assert that it was not fake. If the video is legit, there is no need for the author to show any doubt.

As opposed to describing something in words on a forum, etc.
It’s much easier for the reader to assume it’s all conjecture.



Someone can always cry fake, but then you can ask to see their attempt at repeating the process you showed them.

That's flawed... when you consider something to be fake you won't attempt to repeat it since by definition you're sure it can't happen.
 


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