NerO - Schematics & Key Features

[EEVblog]

Well the last word on the subject was that what was being given out as open source or whatever was not actually open source. Any advance on that ?

It looks like FTDI are giving out the NerO schematics and PCB files under the Open Hardware banner to allow anyone to modify and produce their own versions. However, they place a restriction in their terms stating you *cannot* replace the FTDI chip with anything else. Fair enough, right?
Wrong. The problem is that the Open Hardware license says you can't put those types of restrictions on something. Oops!

Got a link to this?

[donotdespisethesnake]

Well the last word on the subject was that what was being given out as open source or whatever was not actually open source. Any advance on that ?

It looks like FTDI are giving out the NerO schematics and PCB files under the Open Hardware banner to allow anyone to modify and produce their own versions. However, they place a restriction in their terms stating you *cannot* replace the FTDI chip with anything else. Fair enough, right?
Wrong. The problem is that the Open Hardware license says you can't put those types of restrictions on something. Oops!

Got a link to this?

Freedom to modify is one of the fundamental four freedoms : http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html

http://www.oshwa.org/definition/

4. Derived Works
The license shall allow modifications and derived works, and shall allow them to be distributed under the same terms as the license of the original work. The license shall allow for the manufacture, sale, distribution, and use of products created from the design files, the design files themselves, and derivatives thereof.

Similar terminology is used in all Open Source definitions or licenses.

However, in the NerO Kickstarter page https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1218034479/nero-an-energy-efficient-arduino-uno-compatible-de/description in the FAQ they have

I'd like to manufacture NerO for myself - what's the rules here?

Sure, can do. We'll post the schematic and pcb design files ( we use Altium ) 1 month after the project ends. If you are a backer we will give you a link to download these earlier. Now, here are the don'ts -
1. Don't use FTDI or it's trademarks on your PCB artwork.You can use NerO though.
2. Be honest about the country of manufacture - if it's made in China, well say so..
3. Don't claim FCC ,CE and ROHS certification unless you have done it independently by yourself. Our certificates are only valid for our own manufactured product where we guarantee our component sources.
4. Stick with the original design - don't cheapen it by removing the 5V level converters or substituting something else in place of our X-series USB UART.

1,2 and 3 are basically OK, although it is up to the licensee to use the design in a legal manner, so 2 & 3 are superfluous.

4 is clearly a "no derivatives" rule, which is against Open Source.

[Karel]

4 is clearly a "no derivatives" rule, which is against Open Source.

I'm not a laywer but I think a license has precedence over a faq.

[Simon]

They also don't want to give much away, I don't know if they provide gerbers but if they do I can't see why is will not pass FCC etc. I dn't know what other rule there are though. If it's made in china be honest ? sounds like they hold a huge grudge. Infact the whole thing looks like an attempt to boost the same of their products.

[AlxDroidDev]

the whole thing looks like an attempt to boost the same of their products.

I think you nailed this kickstarter's raison d'être

[donotdespisethesnake]

4 is clearly a "no derivatives" rule, which is against Open Source.

I'm not a laywer but I think a license has precedence over a faq.

Ah, such naivete! I would strongly advise that you consult a lawyer before entering any agreements.

Note : a copyright license is binding on the licensee, but not the licensor. Provided that the licensor reserves rights, they can also withdraw permission to use.

Even if we assume that the stated license has precedence over other, possibly informally stated provisions, if the licensor thinks you have not followed his rules he can still sue you. You will have to turn up in court and mount a defense, even if the defense is "the additional license terms are not binding". You have to spend time and money, even if you win, and there is a risk you don't.

In case of "crayon licenses" where a standard license is used with other clauses tacked on, if they conflict with the main license then there is considerable legal uncertainty. The safest approach is to assume the most restrictive interpretation.

Sadly, the track record of FTDI screwing up what should be quite simple is not good. Possibly the FAQ is totally bogus, but then why did FTDI put it in? They must have thought it was a good idea. I wouldn't like to trust that if you create a clone not to their satisfaction, you wouldn't get a "cease and desist" letter from corporate legal.

[Ian.M]

So do a fork of the original open hardware Arduino design before FTDI mucked with it, to include a switching regulator and a clean-room implementation of any other features that are desirable from the NerO and call it the NemO. 

[donotdespisethesnake]

So do a fork of the original open hardware Arduino design before FTDI mucked with it, to include a switching regulator and a clean-room implementation of any other features that are desirable from the NerO and call it the NemO. 

That is the crazy thing, the whole point of Open Source is freedom to create variations, companies can't lock down designs. FTDI don't seem to get that.

NerO is clearly a derivative of Arduino Uno, and if FTDI were genuinely interested in Open Source they would realise that in the sprit of FOSS they should use the same license terms for any derivatives. But apart from posting to advertise their products, I guess Fred from FTDI is not in the habit of reading here.

As for forking Arduino, I don't use them much.

[Simon]

FTDI want to get their products out there and see themselves as the injured party over the fakes and seem to think because they are the injured party can do as they please which is why they criminally damaged peoples property and now think they can make more new rules in their favour while pretending to use existing rules to publicise their product. The statement about being honest if the chips are chinese/fake says it all. If i were to make one i would have no idea where the chips came from unless i actually bought them off someone in china.

Keep it up FTDI, you are so pathetic its comic.

[parasole]

Interesting and hot topic... I am not defending ftdi and whenever possible trying to buy cheaper products as probably most of us over here  however, I would not blame them that tough, they just did try to protect their IP, admit not very inspired and creative, that is. You should admit that they are victims of their good work, unfortunately for them their chip become so popular that at some point instead of counteracting clones, they will have to release it to public domain as common human asset...

And guys, are you blaming that your Saleae cloned copy doesn't work? Yep, they used a chip which is the same as clones use   
Don't blame any one for cloning of your product, just because at some point it will become popular...Or you will try to protect some how your IP? Interesting in which way...

I have many "ftdi" based units, have no idea which one is original and which is not, and of course it would be tough time to have them out of work. I hope it will not happen, just because ftti guys are Scottish as some one pointed about, and I believe that after quick and uninspired action as you may expect from highlanders  , they will sat down and will take a balanced decision which will affect pirates but not us, end users... I don't see the point to attack them unnecessary, after all they are creators, not pirates...

Sorry guys, possible my first post on this forum should not happen in this thread....

[AlxDroidDev]

And guys, are you blaming that your Saleae cloned copy doesn't work? Yep, they used a chip which is the same as clones use   

Your argument is invalid.

All Saleae clones work. Maybe not with the original Saleae software (although some do), but with certainly work sigrok. Besides, trying to run them the Saleae software will not render them useless for anything else.

So, it's not the same thing. Your argument is still invalid and FTDI still sucks.

[parasole]

And guys, are you blaming that your Saleae cloned copy doesn't work? Yep, they used a chip which is the same as clones use   

Your argument is invalid.

I assume if it would be possible to brick the clones, possible Saleae would do it, however their initial design decision was brilliant from tech point of view, but not from the side they would be able to protect their IP, it is simple not possible since the clones HW is absolutely the same as original...
So, my argument is valid, and yes, I use one of that clone as you do :-) 
I am not going to argue with any one, it was just my particular opinion...

[CatalinaWOW]

I am curious.  Does this Nem0 operate with the Arduino operating system?  Would FTDI be responsive to the next release of Arduino (1.6.7 perhaps) bricking Nem0 systems?  I know the situation is different since one (the FTDI USB interface) is proprietary and the other open source, but it does seem a bit of the pot calling the kettle black here.  An anti-cloner cloning someone elses work.

[FrankBuss]

However, in the NerO Kickstarter page https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1218034479/nero-an-energy-efficient-arduino-uno-compatible-de/description in the FAQ they have

I would say the FAQ is an advice. You can follow it or ignore it.

Looks like a good idea to use a switched voltage regulator for 5V. First I wondered how this would work out for the analog inputs, because of the 200mV ripple on the 5V line, which they stated in the Kickstarter project (most Arduino projects don't configure the ADC for the internal bandgap reference). But they thought about it and AVCC has a LC filter, which maybe reduces it to even lower ripple than with an original Arduino Uno, where it is just connected to 5V, getting all the noise from the CPU and shields without filtering. I don't like FTDI because of their questionable anti-clone strategies, but this project is nice.

[mcinque]

assume if it would be possible to brick the clones, possible Saleae would do it

nope. Saleae said clearly that they don't want to act against the clones.
FTDI sucks.

[donotdespisethesnake]

However, in the NerO Kickstarter page https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1218034479/nero-an-energy-efficient-arduino-uno-compatible-de/description in the FAQ they have

I would say the FAQ is an advice. You can follow it or ignore it.

Sure, but it contradicts the OSHW license. Copyright doesn't cover hardware, so in that sense the OSHW license is also "advisory". So basically they are saying:

1. "Please feel free to modify this design however you like."
2. "Please do not modify the design in certain ways"

It's very confusing, and clearly FTDI don't understand Open Source.

I'm quite tempted to clone their design and just replace the FTDI chip, but I don't bother much with Arduinos nowadays.

[donotdespisethesnake]

I am curious.  Does this Nem0 operate with the Arduino operating system?  Would FTDI be responsive to the next release of Arduino (1.6.7 perhaps) bricking Nem0 systems?  I know the situation is different since one (the FTDI USB interface) is proprietary and the other open source, but it does seem a bit of the pot calling the kettle black here.  An anti-cloner cloning someone elses work.

Arduino has always worked fine with clones, except one point where they detected Arduino's made by the breakaway Arduino.org, but they quickly reverted that behaviour. There is no reason why Arduino IDE would not with with Ner0.

"Cloning" - either exactly copying or creating a derivative - an Open Source design is fine, it is what the author has explicitly allowed. Just don't use the author's trademarks without permission.