Author Topic: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box  (Read 56059 times)

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Offline luky315Topic starter

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OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« on: November 18, 2014, 03:05:44 pm »
I am developing an Arduino-controlled Turbo Diesel Tuning Box (MAP and Common Rail sensor signal manipulation).
It works on my car, but it needs some testing and software work before releasing the design to the public.
Are there other car enthusiasts willing and able to help?
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2014, 03:22:43 pm »
I'd be happy to help, but all of my diesel's are old school rotary!

If you don't get any hits here, try the guys on www.dieselplace.com, numerous EE level guys there.

Offline Wilksey

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2014, 03:39:21 pm »
If you want people to test it you are going to have to post the project or link to it, as I know I wouldn't be happy to test anything like that until I saw how it specifically worked.
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2014, 03:42:43 pm »
I think that's a given, he just wants a peer review/test or two before posting publicly.

Offline Wilksey

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2014, 05:53:23 pm »
Ok,

Well, at a minimum we need to know:
1. What he has currently done and what interfaces he is using.
2. What he has currently tested with and what the results were, in particular what the reading of the "adjusted" sensors are.
3. What he wants help with.

I.e. what software work needs to be done.
 

Offline luky315Topic starter

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2014, 08:31:44 pm »
I have working hardware on a stripboard and am currently designing the PCB. The circuit is able to manipulate 2 "standard" 0 to 5V (or more realistically 0.5 to 4.5V) sensor signals. Before publishing it is necessary to "clean up" the Arduino programm (with librarys) and writing a PC program for generating and downloading the new engine operating map to the tuning box.
And I need a good name for the Project :-)
 

Offline Wilksey

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2014, 11:27:02 pm »
Are all engine sensors between 0 - 5V? Or do some run from 0 - 12V?

A new map to the tuning box? Are you intercepting ALL of the signals going to the ECU? The MAP / LUT is stored in the ECU, which I assume you are not attempting to change?

I guess you are doing something similar to the old resistor trick on the MAP sensor on petrol engines?
 

Offline luky315Topic starter

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2014, 08:43:05 am »
I've only encountered 5V Sensors. If you have seen something else please let me know. By the way: There is no "12V" in a car.
I don't want to manipulate the original ECU so I manipulate the sensor signals (dynamically, the old trick with the simple resistor / resistor divider is not working on newer engines...).
The idea is to persuade the ECU to inject more fuel under certain conditions.
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2014, 12:13:56 pm »
unless you publish something.... it doesnt' exist ! ;)
how the hell are you going to manipulate the "sensors" on a common rail injection ? apart from the sheer fact that there is literally nothing "to manipulate" on a modern common rail injection, the modern common rail injection systems are kind of "fragile" - a failure of the high pressure pump will destroy everything (been there - Bosch CP4.1 injetor pump failed and flooded the whole system with aluminum fillings destroying all the injectors - a FREAKING EXPENSIVE repair, and i was just using the car without any kind of mods) so it's not a good idea to manipulate anything from outside of the ECU.... THE ONE AND ONLY WAY how to tune a common rail engine is to replace the maps in the ECU, definitely not by manipulating the sensors.
but anyways... there is a rail pressure sensor, and airflow sensor available for manipulation - the others are not easily accessible for a "man in the middle" manipulation, so i'm really really curious what your "solution" is ;)
 

Offline luky315Topic starter

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2014, 02:25:33 pm »
The principle is simple. The ECU uses the rail pressure sensor in a closed-loop control loop to regulate the pressure in the rail according to the value stored in the engine map. If the sensor signal is attenuated (not by much and not always!!) the closed loop control thinks that the desired pressure in the fuel rail is not reached yet and increases the pressure.

There are a lot of tuning boxes out there which work this way, but no OSHW solution...
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2014, 03:22:48 pm »
the closed loop control thinks that the desired pressure in the fuel rail is not reached yet and increases the pressure.
and exactly that excess pressure will kill the high pressure pump (higher temperatures long term - more material fatique and finally kaboom).
futhermore - if you increase the pressure and amount of injected fuell - you need to adjust the airflow as well - otherwise a lot of soot will be created thanks to incomplete combustion and that will kill your DPF and catalytic converter....

adjusting the control loops and processes inside a modern common rail engine is kind of a "black magic" ... any kind of "tuning box" is a quick way to destroy the engine... either tune the maps in the ECU (end even that way you can easily damage the engine) or simply accept the stock setup.

if you want a more powerful car , then buy a more powerful one instead of tuning a weak one - it will be MUCH CHEAPER at the end of the day ;)
 

Offline luky315Topic starter

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2014, 04:57:43 pm »
There is basically no difference between manipulating the engine map inside the ECU or "outside". The outcome is the same: more fuel in the cylinder. And as long as we stay in a reasonable range (10-25%), there is no problem with the air mixture. A diesel engine works with excess air (not like a petrol engine with Lambda = 1). And we have another mechanism working for us: More burned fuel means more exhaust which is driving the the turbocharger. And we can also manipulate the MAP-Sensor (Manifold-Absolute-Pressure).
A lot of commercial tuning Boxes work this way.
As I wrote earlier: You DONT raise the pressure all the time. Just when a "power boost" is needed.
Of course you increase the mechanical stress on all components when using the extra power. If you don't want one: fine. Your choice.
I am still looking for car enthusiasts willing and able to help with the software and test subjects.
 

Online wraper

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2014, 05:51:02 pm »
A lot of commercial tuning Boxes work this way.
You mean, commercial scam boxes?
You will unlikely to get any positive effect and moreover ECU will get a fault code completely crapping performance. Resetting fault code will be only possible with resetting it over CAN bus.
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2014, 05:57:38 pm »
Guys, luky is absolutely correct.  Fooling of sensors is done ALL the time.  Done correctly and in the right portions, while fooling others to compensate is very effective and works.

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2014, 06:36:00 pm »
There is basically no difference between manipulating the engine map inside the ECU or "outside". The outcome is the same: more fuel in the cylinder. And as long as we stay in a reasonable range (10-25%), there is no problem with the air mixture. A diesel engine works with excess air (not like a petrol engine with Lambda = 1). And we have another mechanism working for us: More burned fuel means more exhaust which is driving the the turbocharger. And we can also manipulate the MAP-Sensor (Manifold-Absolute-Pressure).
A lot of commercial tuning Boxes work this way.
As I wrote earlier: You DONT raise the pressure all the time. Just when a "power boost" is needed.
Of course you increase the mechanical stress on all components when using the extra power. If you don't want one: fine. Your choice.
I am still looking for car enthusiasts willing and able to help with the software and test subjects.

fully agree , your statements are  100% valid for diesels with electronically controlled rotary injection pumps and pressure driven injectors (single pilot injection and the main injection) ... those engines got few variables - air flow, boost , amount of fuel to be injected... very simple, elegant and easy to tune engines...... but please stop convincing anyone that it's the same for modern common rail engines ... just have a look at the 3rd generation of VW diesels, apart from the shitload of sensors and way too complicated engine.... those even got an intake manifold flap - something seen on petrol engines only before.
 

Offline luky315Topic starter

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2014, 07:06:30 pm »
"Modern" engines are not Black Magic (nor is high speed digital ;-) ) if you understand how they work.
If you are afraight - don't touch them and look for something else to do.
My car has a Kia / Hyundai CRDi engine and its working fine...
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2014, 07:33:07 pm »
"Modern" engines are not Black Magic (nor is high speed digital ;-) ) if you understand how they work.
If you are afraight - don't touch them and look for something else to do.
My car has a Kia / Hyundai CRDi engine and its working fine...

and what sensors/signals are you manipulating ? since when is arduino high speed digital ? how did you solve the automotive requirements for the electronics ? if you're manipulating just a subset of the signals... isn't the engine going to default/safety mode ? how did you measure the actual results ?

so back to my very first comment.... show something or it doesn't exist ;)  proove me that i'm wrong .. becaue i think you got nothing usable yet and you just talking bullshit here ;)

i'll apologize for my previous statement once we'll see something ;)
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2014, 07:49:36 pm »
i'll apologize for my previous statement once we'll see something ;)

 :palm:

Better just move on luky..  I suggest the project name R.O.B.

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2014, 08:43:58 pm »
i'll apologize for my previous statement once we'll see something ;)

 :palm:

Better just move on luky..  I suggest the project name R.O.B.

i'll rather see people "facepalming" at my comments than people "facepalming" after the "arduino power box" destroyed their engine. and that's all just because of someone got the brilliant  idea of "arduino manipulating" the sensors of a common rail diesiel engine ;)

so common luky... we're all corious ;)
 

Offline luky315Topic starter

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2014, 09:05:34 pm »
Nothing I can show will convince rob77 and people like him that the thing is real. Or would a schematic really convince you? Don't feed the Troll...

Is someone here who is able to understand the function of a common rail diesel engine and likes writing software? At the moment the necessary parameters in the arduino firmware are "hard-coded". It works, but only on my engine and certanly not optimal. A PC interface to show the signals and change the parameters while driving would be the next step.
 

Online wraper

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2014, 09:15:30 pm »
Nothing I can show will convince rob77 and people like him that the thing is real. Or would a schematic really convince you? Don't feed the Troll...

Is someone here who is able to understand the function of a common rail diesel engine and likes writing software? At the moment the necessary parameters in the arduino firmware are "hard-coded". It works, but only on my engine and certanly not optimal. A PC interface to show the signals and change the parameters while driving would be the next step.
And how do you check that it is really working and not a placebo effect. Like audiofools are hearing how power cable changes the sound  :-DD
 

Offline TheEnd

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2014, 09:47:16 pm »
It's a simple idea, the rail pressure sensor will output something like 0.5-4.5v with pressure from 0 to about 1800bar, and the MAP sensor will do similar for the Boost pressure between 0 -3 bar (absolute)

If you decrease these sensor voltages, the ECU will adapt and increase the boost and rail pressure.
Almost all diesel tuning boxes just do this, and skew the voltage.
It's not going to be hard to take some more sensor readings and make the amount of "skew" change at different pedal positions or RPMs of the engine.

You might be able to tap into the pedal potentiometers to gain a pedal angle signal, RPM might be harder, but there may be an analogue output, otherwise you'll be able to read these from the CAN bus, or with an OBD2 reader.
 

Offline luky315Topic starter

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2014, 10:12:49 pm »
You don't need an RPM signal or the gas pedal position. It is possible to get all the necessary information from the slew rate of the "original" sensor signal. If power is needed / demanded by the driver, the sensor voltage goes up as the ECU increases the Rail pressure. If the box detects this, it decreases the sensor voltage seen by the ECU, which leads to more pressure in the rail.
The schreenshot shows an old version of the circuit. CH1 is the original signal and CH2 is the manipulated signal. The new firmware is able to smoothly switch between "Original" and "Boost" state.
 

Offline m100

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2014, 10:41:21 pm »
I've no diesel modifying experience but having modified ECU maps on petrol turbo vehicles before, and IMHO in a manner both more effective and safer than that of some of the kludges of so called 'professionals'  I tend towards the view you need to get access to a rolling road or in car data logging and a means of measuring the composition of the exhaust gases to ensure you are getting real measurable effects,  that they are controllable, and you are not causing issues with other ECU functionality such as DPF regen for instance.

(P.S. Modifying the output of MAP sensors with zener clamps was a crude technique I came across in the distant past)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 12:42:03 pm by m100 »
 

Offline Scrts

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2014, 11:28:49 pm »
Oh yes, we do hundreds of tests for months in automotive, calculate everything precisely, do a bunch of reviews, prepare tons of documents and then someone in the garage outsmarts all the engineers and does a better job on ECU stuff. Nice, I am so happy that we have so many talents!
 

Offline senso

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2014, 03:57:18 am »
There is basically no difference between manipulating the engine map inside the ECU or "outside". The outcome is the same: more fuel in the cylinder. And as long as we stay in a reasonable range (10-25%), there is no problem with the air mixture. A diesel engine works with excess air (not like a petrol engine with Lambda = 1). And we have another mechanism working for us: More burned fuel means more exhaust which is driving the the turbocharger. And we can also manipulate the MAP-Sensor (Manifold-Absolute-Pressure).
A lot of commercial tuning Boxes work this way.
As I wrote earlier: You DONT raise the pressure all the time. Just when a "power boost" is needed.
Of course you increase the mechanical stress on all components when using the extra power. If you don't want one: fine. Your choice.
I am still looking for car enthusiasts willing and able to help with the software and test subjects.

fully agree , your statements are  100% valid for diesels with electronically controlled rotary injection pumps and pressure driven injectors (single pilot injection and the main injection) ... those engines got few variables - air flow, boost , amount of fuel to be injected... very simple, elegant and easy to tune engines...... but please stop convincing anyone that it's the same for modern common rail engines ... just have a look at the 3rd generation of VW diesels, apart from the shitload of sensors and way too complicated engine.... those even got an intake manifold flap - something seen on petrol engines only before.

Not to rain in your parade, but my Strakar L200 from 2001 has an intake manifold flap, made by Mikuni, so its a sort of common thing.
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2014, 07:00:29 am »
Not to rain in your parade, but my Strakar L200 from 2001 has an intake manifold flap, made by Mikuni, so its a sort of common thing.

so your diesel engine is considered a modern one ;) in my post i was basically comparing against the easy tunable electronically controlled rotary injection pump engines - and that was every VW TDI engine developed from the 1Z engine and produced in the late 90' by the VW concern. so your 2001 engine might be a modern one compared to those ;)

and again.. anything modern simply can't be SAFELY TUNED via a "power box" , you have to manipulate (correctly and carefully) the ECU maps.
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2014, 07:11:17 am »
Nothing I can show will convince rob77 and people like him that the thing is real. Or would a schematic really convince you? Don't feed the Troll...

Is someone here who is able to understand the function of a common rail diesel engine and likes writing software? At the moment the necessary parameters in the arduino firmware are "hard-coded". It works, but only on my engine and certanly not optimal. A PC interface to show the signals and change the parameters while driving would be the next step.
And how do you check that it is really working and not a placebo effect. Like audiofools are hearing how power cable changes the sound  :-DD

it's very simple ;)  louder, noisier, makes more smoke and it's overheating.... got to be more powerful  :-DD
 

Offline luky315Topic starter

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2014, 07:55:05 am »
If someone wants to work with me on this project, please send me a PM.
Enough trolling and smattering for this week!
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2014, 08:02:28 am »
If someone wants to work with me on this project, please send me a PM.
Enough trolling and smattering for this week!

Don't take it personally it's an engineering tendency, hang around and you'll get used to it :)
 

Offline luky315Topic starter

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2014, 11:21:53 am »
In my world (i'm an EE with a few years of experience in small and big companies, including the automotive industry) a "real" engineer stays silent if he or she is in doubt. Marketing and Sales people are usually overconfident and "decide" what can be done in no time. And then it begins... Again.
 

Offline mc

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2014, 06:10:47 pm »
This is possible, however you really need to know the limits of each major system type, and how each engine manufacturer implements the system. Some systems have potential to be manipulated, but others will pick up issues reasonably quickly.

Anything modern with a DPF is likely to have a wide band oxygen sensor combined with exhaust temp sensors, which allows the ECU to monitor the exhaust and will self-learn/adjust the values it reads from other sensors and adjust the air/fuel mixture accordingly to bring the exhaust oxygen level back into spec, so any minor manipulation is only likely to provide a short term gain, and any major manipulation will trigger faults.
 

Online mikerj

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2014, 08:31:01 pm »
and again.. anything modern simply can't be SAFELY TUNED via a "power box" , you have to manipulate (correctly and carefully) the ECU maps.

You seem to be (quite aggressively) displaying a lot of ignorance on how modern common rail systems function.  It's not only entirely possible to increase the power output with relative safety, you can buy a wide range of 'tuning boxes' to achieve this.

You can only increase fuel pressure by so much before protection systems with the ECU will flag a fault, but to suggest that is can't be done at all is ridiculous.
 

Offline pmbrunelle

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2014, 04:23:09 am »
It would seem easier to make a complete computer to run all the engine's functions. Something like FreeEMS, but for diesel.

Spoofing sensor inputs and hoping that the OE black-box mystery computer will react a certain way seems to be the most convoluted/kludged way to retune an engine.
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2014, 03:49:32 pm »
and again.. anything modern simply can't be SAFELY TUNED via a "power box" , you have to manipulate (correctly and carefully) the ECU maps.

You seem to be (quite aggressively) displaying a lot of ignorance on how modern common rail systems function.  It's not only entirely possible to increase the power output with relative safety, you can buy a wide range of 'tuning boxes' to achieve this.

You can only increase fuel pressure by so much before protection systems with the ECU will flag a fault, but to suggest that is can't be done at all is ridiculous.

have you ever used such a "tuning box" ? did you know that the fuel pressure is ONLY ONE VARIABLE determining the amount of fuel injected for common rail engines ? did you even know that there are several injections (even 5+ injections for modern CRs) per cycle , not just the single pilot and main injection per cycle as it was with rotary pumps and pressure driven injectors.

all of those "tuning boxes" are either a scam or something what will give you some boost, but will destroy your engine after few tens of thousands of kilometers.

 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2014, 03:50:33 pm »
It would seem easier to make a complete computer to run all the engine's functions. Something like FreeEMS, but for diesel.

good luck with that - many years of development and many destroyed engines till you get there ;)
 

Offline senso

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2014, 05:00:07 pm »
MegaSquirt ECU's also seem to be popular and there is a lot of tuners using them, but all the testint/fine tuning is done in a rolling road/dyno.
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2014, 08:54:48 pm »
MegaSquirt ECU's also seem to be popular and there is a lot of tuners using them, but all the testint/fine tuning is done in a rolling road/dyno.

that megasquirt is off the bucket ;) quote from their web:

Quote
MegaSquirt® controllers will work on virtually any liquid fueled spark-ignition engine, naturally aspirated or boosted (up to 21 psi boost with the standard MAP sensor) as long as they are not 'pollution controlled'.

the topic was a Turbo Diesel Tuning Box for modern common rail engines. ;)  but otherwise that megasquirt might be an interesting piece of hardware - as a learning platform ;)
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2014, 09:13:16 pm »
I have used MS on several gasser builds, it's a very functional unit.

The MS hardware is also the OEM for some of the larger professionally sold units, don't recall the names off the top of my head.

Offline senso

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2014, 11:26:24 pm »
MegaSquirt ECU's also seem to be popular and there is a lot of tuners using them, but all the testint/fine tuning is done in a rolling road/dyno.

that megasquirt is off the bucket ;) quote from their web:

Quote
MegaSquirt® controllers will work on virtually any liquid fueled spark-ignition engine, naturally aspirated or boosted (up to 21 psi boost with the standard MAP sensor) as long as they are not 'pollution controlled'.

the topic was a Turbo Diesel Tuning Box for modern common rail engines. ;)  but otherwise that megasquirt might be an interesting piece of hardware - as a learning platform ;)

Sorry, had the idea that they already had a unit for diesel engines.
 

Offline wagon

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2014, 05:15:22 am »
I've been running a MS box for about 8years now, they do work well.

One big factor here, the engine will only run as well as your tuning allows.
Hiding from the missus, she doesn't understand.
 

Offline mc

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2014, 11:48:06 pm »
Sorry, had the idea that they already had a unit for diesel engines.

It's all to do with technology, so here's a quick summary.

Ignoring the similar things both ECUs have to monitor/control, the basics a petrol ECU has to do, is control fuel pressure using a bit PWM of the fuel pump, inject the correct amount of fuel at roughly the correct time, and fire the sparkplugs with reasonable accuracy and adjust the timing according to the knock sensor feedback.
When I say roughly, within a degree is usually good enough for a petrol engine to run smoothly.

Now take a modern diesel. It has to control fuel pressure again using PWM but via a solenoid valve on a mechanical pump, so you have the added factor of the amount of regulation varying with engine speed/load, and due to the tolerances on modern systems, this has to be a self learning function to continually adapt as things wear. Then you have to provide ~80V to open the injectors multiple times with accurate timing (latest engines are using upto 7 distinct injection pulses) and vary the fuel quantity according to required torque, aswell as monitoring and compensating for cylinder balance and knock. Then you have particulate filter monitoring/regenerating with some of the latest cars having urea injection, and not forgetting electronic turbo wastegates.

Common between petrol and diesel are things like EGR, o2 sensors, air flow, atmospheric and manifold pressure, electronic throttle bodies, electric thermostats, and engine ECUs also often handle the A/C and cooling fans.

Then on top of that, you need the fault monitoring. Petrols will usually just run rough/cut-out if something goes wrong, whereas a diesel runs the very potential risk of extensive engine damage if something goes wrong and doesn't get detected quick enough.
 

Offline pmbrunelle

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2014, 04:49:03 am »
Sorry, had the idea that they already had a unit for diesel engines.

It's all to do with technology, so here's a quick summary.

Ignoring the similar things both ECUs have to monitor/control, the basics a petrol ECU has to do, is control fuel pressure using a bit PWM of the fuel pump, inject the correct amount of fuel at roughly the correct time, and fire the sparkplugs with reasonable accuracy and adjust the timing according to the knock sensor feedback.
When I say roughly, within a degree is usually good enough for a petrol engine to run smoothly.

Now take a modern diesel. It has to control fuel pressure again using PWM but via a solenoid valve on a mechanical pump, so you have the added factor of the amount of regulation varying with engine speed/load, and due to the tolerances on modern systems, this has to be a self learning function to continually adapt as things wear. Then you have to provide ~80V to open the injectors multiple times with accurate timing (latest engines are using upto 7 distinct injection pulses) and vary the fuel quantity according to required torque, aswell as monitoring and compensating for cylinder balance and knock. Then you have particulate filter monitoring/regenerating with some of the latest cars having urea injection, and not forgetting electronic turbo wastegates.

Common between petrol and diesel are things like EGR, o2 sensors, air flow, atmospheric and manifold pressure, electronic throttle bodies, electric thermostats, and engine ECUs also often handle the A/C and cooling fans.

Then on top of that, you need the fault monitoring. Petrols will usually just run rough/cut-out if something goes wrong, whereas a diesel runs the very potential risk of extensive engine damage if something goes wrong and doesn't get detected quick enough.

You're making it seem really complicated to run an engine decently. There's what OEMs need to do to pass XYZ regulations, and then there's what's actually necessary to have a nice-driving vehicle. Most of what you mentioned can be ignored/not implemented for a DIY engine computer.
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2014, 07:10:26 am »
Sorry, had the idea that they already had a unit for diesel engines.

It's all to do with technology, so here's a quick summary.

Ignoring the similar things both ECUs have to monitor/control, the basics a petrol ECU has to do, is control fuel pressure using a bit PWM of the fuel pump, inject the correct amount of fuel at roughly the correct time, and fire the sparkplugs with reasonable accuracy and adjust the timing according to the knock sensor feedback.
When I say roughly, within a degree is usually good enough for a petrol engine to run smoothly.

Now take a modern diesel. It has to control fuel pressure again using PWM but via a solenoid valve on a mechanical pump, so you have the added factor of the amount of regulation varying with engine speed/load, and due to the tolerances on modern systems, this has to be a self learning function to continually adapt as things wear. Then you have to provide ~80V to open the injectors multiple times with accurate timing (latest engines are using upto 7 distinct injection pulses) and vary the fuel quantity according to required torque, aswell as monitoring and compensating for cylinder balance and knock. Then you have particulate filter monitoring/regenerating with some of the latest cars having urea injection, and not forgetting electronic turbo wastegates.

Common between petrol and diesel are things like EGR, o2 sensors, air flow, atmospheric and manifold pressure, electronic throttle bodies, electric thermostats, and engine ECUs also often handle the A/C and cooling fans.

Then on top of that, you need the fault monitoring. Petrols will usually just run rough/cut-out if something goes wrong, whereas a diesel runs the very potential risk of extensive engine damage if something goes wrong and doesn't get detected quick enough.

You're making it seem really complicated to run an engine decently. There's what OEMs need to do to pass XYZ regulations, and then there's what's actually necessary to have a nice-driving vehicle. Most of what you mentioned can be ignored/not implemented for a DIY engine computer.

please stop confusing the MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINES with the old fashion turbo diesels with rotary injection pumps or with the first generation common rail... what we're trying to tell you, is that there is NO WAY of safely tuning a MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE with a tuning box because the MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE is way too complicated.

and don't forget ... in EU any modification to the engine which will result in non compliance to regulations is illegal. so you can only tune your engine within boundaries set by allowed emissions and noise levels.
 

Offline wagon

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2014, 10:52:37 am »
What surprises me is how well engine electronic control last.  For example, Cummins have had the 'Celect' and 'Celect plus' since the early 1990's on heavy diesels.  These are bolted to the side of the motor!  I've repaired quite a few, most of the faults are SMD electrolytics that have leaked.  Caterpillar also bolt their devices to the side of their motors and quite a few have water jackets!

Now, to get to my point, it's quite common to to upload a new 'tune' to the controllers without doing any mechanical changes, like a C18 could be derated to 500hp or run as hard as 650hp.  Given how much they cost if you bust one, you wouldn't want to get it wrong through tricking sensors and stuff, would you.
Hiding from the missus, she doesn't understand.
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2014, 11:31:50 am »
is that there is NO WAY of safely tuning a MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE with a tuning box because the MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE is way too complicated.


 |O

 :palm:

This is simply not true.  Piggy back systems are still available for modern common rail engines, by modern I assume you mean the past ~10 years.

Piggy back has some advantages over ECM reflash.  First of all, OEM ECMs are so damn complicated it takes a while for tuner companies to crack them.  Also, some of the very latest ECM detect and count ECM reflashes, which "informs" the dealership of tampering, in-line/piggy back systems are still not detectable if you end up in a warranty situation.

Last big advantage, piggy back systems more easily allow for selectable tunes via rotary dash switch, this is very desirable for many, economy tune, to a race tune while driving down the street. 

Just one example of a popular piggy back system, up to 13' model year

https://www.diablosport.com/products/powerpuck.html

Lastly, when all out performance is demanded, neither a piggy back or a reflash will do, nothing beats a P-Pump.

Offline m100

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2014, 11:39:49 am »
and don't forget ... in EU any modification to the engine which will result in non compliance to regulations is illegal.

That is precisely why it is done.  Some people apparently run all year round without a catalytic converter and only fit it for the emissions test.    ::)
 

Offline pmbrunelle

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2014, 01:21:24 am »
Sorry, had the idea that they already had a unit for diesel engines.

It's all to do with technology, so here's a quick summary.

Ignoring the similar things both ECUs have to monitor/control, the basics a petrol ECU has to do, is control fuel pressure using a bit PWM of the fuel pump, inject the correct amount of fuel at roughly the correct time, and fire the sparkplugs with reasonable accuracy and adjust the timing according to the knock sensor feedback.
When I say roughly, within a degree is usually good enough for a petrol engine to run smoothly.

Now take a modern diesel. It has to control fuel pressure again using PWM but via a solenoid valve on a mechanical pump, so you have the added factor of the amount of regulation varying with engine speed/load, and due to the tolerances on modern systems, this has to be a self learning function to continually adapt as things wear. Then you have to provide ~80V to open the injectors multiple times with accurate timing (latest engines are using upto 7 distinct injection pulses) and vary the fuel quantity according to required torque, aswell as monitoring and compensating for cylinder balance and knock. Then you have particulate filter monitoring/regenerating with some of the latest cars having urea injection, and not forgetting electronic turbo wastegates.

Common between petrol and diesel are things like EGR, o2 sensors, air flow, atmospheric and manifold pressure, electronic throttle bodies, electric thermostats, and engine ECUs also often handle the A/C and cooling fans.

Then on top of that, you need the fault monitoring. Petrols will usually just run rough/cut-out if something goes wrong, whereas a diesel runs the very potential risk of extensive engine damage if something goes wrong and doesn't get detected quick enough.

You're making it seem really complicated to run an engine decently. There's what OEMs need to do to pass XYZ regulations, and then there's what's actually necessary to have a nice-driving vehicle. Most of what you mentioned can be ignored/not implemented for a DIY engine computer.

please stop confusing the MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINES with the old fashion turbo diesels with rotary injection pumps or with the first generation common rail... what we're trying to tell you, is that there is NO WAY of safely tuning a MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE with a tuning box because the MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE is way too complicated.

and don't forget ... in EU any modification to the engine which will result in non compliance to regulations is illegal. so you can only tune your engine within boundaries set by allowed emissions and noise levels.

What exactly is complicated about tuning a modern diesel engine... if you only seek a level of refinement that is on-par with mechanical injection? Consider that for us hobbyists compliance with emissions is irrelevant.

Is it the lack of a prechamber?

Furthermore, I would never suggest a man-in-the-middle tuning box, only a complete computer replacement.
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2014, 07:41:56 pm »
Sorry, had the idea that they already had a unit for diesel engines.

It's all to do with technology, so here's a quick summary.

Ignoring the similar things both ECUs have to monitor/control, the basics a petrol ECU has to do, is control fuel pressure using a bit PWM of the fuel pump, inject the correct amount of fuel at roughly the correct time, and fire the sparkplugs with reasonable accuracy and adjust the timing according to the knock sensor feedback.
When I say roughly, within a degree is usually good enough for a petrol engine to run smoothly.

Now take a modern diesel. It has to control fuel pressure again using PWM but via a solenoid valve on a mechanical pump, so you have the added factor of the amount of regulation varying with engine speed/load, and due to the tolerances on modern systems, this has to be a self learning function to continually adapt as things wear. Then you have to provide ~80V to open the injectors multiple times with accurate timing (latest engines are using upto 7 distinct injection pulses) and vary the fuel quantity according to required torque, aswell as monitoring and compensating for cylinder balance and knock. Then you have particulate filter monitoring/regenerating with some of the latest cars having urea injection, and not forgetting electronic turbo wastegates.

Common between petrol and diesel are things like EGR, o2 sensors, air flow, atmospheric and manifold pressure, electronic throttle bodies, electric thermostats, and engine ECUs also often handle the A/C and cooling fans.

Then on top of that, you need the fault monitoring. Petrols will usually just run rough/cut-out if something goes wrong, whereas a diesel runs the very potential risk of extensive engine damage if something goes wrong and doesn't get detected quick enough.

You're making it seem really complicated to run an engine decently. There's what OEMs need to do to pass XYZ regulations, and then there's what's actually necessary to have a nice-driving vehicle. Most of what you mentioned can be ignored/not implemented for a DIY engine computer.

please stop confusing the MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINES with the old fashion turbo diesels with rotary injection pumps or with the first generation common rail... what we're trying to tell you, is that there is NO WAY of safely tuning a MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE with a tuning box because the MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE is way too complicated.

and don't forget ... in EU any modification to the engine which will result in non compliance to regulations is illegal. so you can only tune your engine within boundaries set by allowed emissions and noise levels.

What exactly is complicated about tuning a modern diesel engine... if you only seek a level of refinement that is on-par with mechanical injection? Consider that for us hobbyists compliance with emissions is irrelevant.

Is it the lack of a prechamber?

Furthermore, I would never suggest a man-in-the-middle tuning box, only a complete computer replacement.

and exactly that was my point ! it's impossible to tune a modern CR engine via manipulating the sensor signals (a.k.a. tuning/power box) you have to manipulate the ECU maps (or if you wish , develop a whole new ECU).
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2014, 07:55:39 pm »
is that there is NO WAY of safely tuning a MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE with a tuning box because the MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE is way too complicated.


 |O

 :palm:

This is simply not true.  Piggy back systems are still available for modern common rail engines, by modern I assume you mean the past ~10 years.

Piggy back has some advantages over ECM reflash.  First of all, OEM ECMs are so damn complicated it takes a while for tuner companies to crack them.  Also, some of the very latest ECM detect and count ECM reflashes, which "informs" the dealership of tampering, in-line/piggy back systems are still not detectable if you end up in a warranty situation.

Last big advantage, piggy back systems more easily allow for selectable tunes via rotary dash switch, this is very desirable for many, economy tune, to a race tune while driving down the street. 

Just one example of a popular piggy back system, up to 13' model year

https://www.diablosport.com/products/powerpuck.html

Lastly, when all out performance is demanded, neither a piggy back or a reflash will do, nothing beats a P-Pump.

modern means up to 5-6 yrs old, or in other words anything what uses a pump capable of making 2000 bars of pressure in  the injection rail and uses fine and fast injectors capable 5+ injections per cycle.

if a car is '13 model (especially in the US) it doesn't mean it's a modern CR engine - in the US the diesel fuel is so bad that VW stopped selling diesel cars there... the issues with GM cars using the Bosch CP4.2 pump is another proof of the low diesel fuel quality in the US... so it means there will be not too much of modern CRs in the US.

do you really believe that bullshit promising +100 horsepower ? ... well ok.. it's possible with bigger engines, but you'll be invisible because of the black smoke behind you.


EDIT:

checked that powerpuck web more in detail - it's only for older engines (upto bosch CP3 pumps) and mainly for big ass engines (in Europe we're using such engines in trucks) ... btw.. a modern CR engine for GM cars has a displacement of 3 litres ONLY and it's called Ecodiesiel. and that one is not listed among the engines which are tunable by that powerpuck.

FYI... in EU a 2.0 litre CR diesel is a standard size for mid-class cars.. lower end cars are using even smaller ones... 1.4 - 1.6 litre.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 08:20:55 pm by rob77 »
 

Online mikerj

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2014, 06:32:39 pm »
and again.. anything modern simply can't be SAFELY TUNED via a "power box" , you have to manipulate (correctly and carefully) the ECU maps.

You seem to be (quite aggressively) displaying a lot of ignorance on how modern common rail systems function.  It's not only entirely possible to increase the power output with relative safety, you can buy a wide range of 'tuning boxes' to achieve this.

You can only increase fuel pressure by so much before protection systems with the ECU will flag a fault, but to suggest that is can't be done at all is ridiculous.

have you ever used such a "tuning box" ? did you know that the fuel pressure is ONLY ONE VARIABLE determining the amount of fuel injected for common rail engines ? did you even know that there are several injections (even 5+ injections for modern CRs) per cycle , not just the single pilot and main injection per cycle as it was with rotary pumps and pressure driven injectors.

all of those "tuning boxes" are either a scam or something what will give you some boost, but will destroy your engine after few tens of thousands of kilometers.
#

Yes I knew all these things.  If you calmed down and applied a little bit of common sense, you'd realise that the points you have made regarding pilot injection events is exactly why fuel pressure can be used to manipulate engine output without having to mess with injector timing and duration.


and exactly that was my point ! it's impossible to tune a modern CR engine via manipulating the sensor signals (a.k.a. tuning/power box) you have to manipulate the ECU maps (or if you wish , develop a whole new ECU).

100% incorrect I'm afraid.  Tuning boxes work whether you want to believe this or not.  Some vehicles yield better results than others for sure, but they give a useful power/torque increases on most common rail diesels.

Obviously if you are trying to extract every last bit of power from an engine, a tuning box would be useless and a complete re-map (likely on an aftermarket ECU) would be needed to cope with the vastly different fueling requirements.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 06:37:34 pm by mikerj »
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2014, 07:06:52 pm »
Might as well give it up Mike, arguing with a politician is pointless!  Just make one more addition to your ignore list and move on happy.

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2014, 09:10:24 pm »


and exactly that was my point ! it's impossible to tune a modern CR engine via manipulating the sensor signals (a.k.a. tuning/power box) you have to manipulate the ECU maps (or if you wish , develop a whole new ECU).

100% incorrect I'm afraid.  Tuning boxes work whether you want to believe this or not.  Some vehicles yield better results than others for sure, but they give a useful power/torque increases on most common rail diesels.

Obviously if you are trying to extract every last bit of power from an engine, a tuning box would be useless and a complete re-map (likely on an aftermarket ECU) would be needed to cope with the vastly different fueling requirements.

show me please ONE power box for a modern CR engine (high pressure pump - 2k bars, particulate filter - DPF , SCR with adblue/def injection) and then feel free to add me into your ignore list ;) btw...that powepuck mentioned above is definitely not a powerbox for a modern CR.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2014, 01:41:09 pm »
(P.S. Modifying the output of MAP sensors with zener clamps was a crude technique I came across in the distant past)
What worked very well in my previous car was a 1.2V zener diode in the ground leg of the turbo pressure sensor giving it an offset at low pressure. It improved the driveability (more power at low RPM) and fuel economy a lot.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online mikerj

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2014, 12:50:27 pm »


and exactly that was my point ! it's impossible to tune a modern CR engine via manipulating the sensor signals (a.k.a. tuning/power box) you have to manipulate the ECU maps (or if you wish , develop a whole new ECU).

100% incorrect I'm afraid.  Tuning boxes work whether you want to believe this or not.  Some vehicles yield better results than others for sure, but they give a useful power/torque increases on most common rail diesels.

Obviously if you are trying to extract every last bit of power from an engine, a tuning box would be useless and a complete re-map (likely on an aftermarket ECU) would be needed to cope with the vastly different fueling requirements.

show me please ONE power box for a modern CR engine (high pressure pump - 2k bars, particulate filter - DPF , SCR with adblue/def injection) and then feel free to add me into your ignore list ;) btw...that powepuck mentioned above is definitely not a powerbox for a modern CR.

One large portion of bitter tasting humble pie coming up:

http://www.tdi-tuning.co.uk/car_and_van_diesel_tuning_boxes_C7.html
http://www.diesel-performance.co.uk
http://www.bluesparkautomotive.com/
http://www.tuningbox.com/en/home.htm
 

Offline DeepDive

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2014, 01:34:55 pm »
Diesel Tuning boxes on Modern CR engines do work!
I have been using one for more than 50k odd clicks and I'm happy with the performance gains. I agree that the performance gains are not as high as what a professional ECU remap can deliver, but a tuning box is definitely a good and often cheaper alternative.

Are there other car enthusiasts willing and able to help?

I would love to help in testing this as much as possible.
Also I would like to understand how this is accomplished via 'duino.

  • Which variant of Arduino are you using?
  • Are you using the PWM DAC using AnalogWrite() or a dedicated DAC?
  • Apart from the signal from the CR sensor (0.5-4.5v), any other signal that you are modifying? - The tuning box which I have modifies only the CR sensor signal, but I've heard about boxes which manipulates more than one signal for better performance - No experience in using multi-channel boxes yet.
  • If you are manipulating more than one signal, are there any correlation between them? Any way to deduce LOAD or RPM from these signals?
  • How did you arrive at the variations required to the original signal? Are they a fixed increment or a condition based LUT or formula?

« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 01:46:42 pm by DeepDive »
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2014, 02:31:40 pm »


and exactly that was my point ! it's impossible to tune a modern CR engine via manipulating the sensor signals (a.k.a. tuning/power box) you have to manipulate the ECU maps (or if you wish , develop a whole new ECU).

100% incorrect I'm afraid.  Tuning boxes work whether you want to believe this or not.  Some vehicles yield better results than others for sure, but they give a useful power/torque increases on most common rail diesels.

Obviously if you are trying to extract every last bit of power from an engine, a tuning box would be useless and a complete re-map (likely on an aftermarket ECU) would be needed to cope with the vastly different fueling requirements.

show me please ONE power box for a modern CR engine (high pressure pump - 2k bars, particulate filter - DPF , SCR with adblue/def injection) and then feel free to add me into your ignore list ;) btw...that powepuck mentioned above is definitely not a powerbox for a modern CR.

One large portion of bitter tasting humble pie coming up:

http://www.tdi-tuning.co.uk/car_and_van_diesel_tuning_boxes_C7.html
http://www.diesel-performance.co.uk
http://www.bluesparkautomotive.com/
http://www.tuningbox.com/en/home.htm

yeah for sure it's safe ... and that'w the reason why they placing all the bullshit on their webpage as a bitmap and not text.... (google can't index the bulshit if it's in a bitmap instead of text).

increase airflow, flueal while not over-stressing the turbo and pump... for sure grandma... now tell me the one about red riding hood :-DD 


one which looks more-or-less believable is TDUK, but i'm not able to find any details HOW it's connected to the engine... they just mention "DPF safe" (however on various forums there are threads about "limp-mode days" and need to upgrade the software for that "DPF safe" version)

 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2014, 02:36:17 pm »
Diesel Tuning boxes on Modern CR engines do work!
I have been using one for more than 50k odd clicks and I'm happy with the performance gains. I agree that the performance gains are not as high as what a professional ECU remap can deliver, but a tuning box is definitely a good and often cheaper alternative.

Are there other car enthusiasts willing and able to help?

I would love to help in testing this as much as possible.
Also I would like to understand how this is accomplished via 'duino.

  • Which variant of Arduino are you using?
  • Are you using the PWM DAC using AnalogWrite() or a dedicated DAC?
  • Apart from the signal from the CR sensor (0.5-4.5v), any other signal that you are modifying? - The tuning box which I have modifies only the CR sensor signal, but I've heard about boxes which manipulates more than one signal for better performance - No experience in using multi-channel boxes yet.
  • If you are manipulating more than one signal, are there any correlation between them? Any way to deduce LOAD or RPM from these signals?
  • How did you arrive at the variations required to the original signal? Are they a fixed increment or a condition based LUT or formula?

before you try to hook your arduino into the control loop of the high pressure pump... please hook it into the feedback loop of your bench power supply first... and have a look how wildly your bech psu will oscillate.... now imagine what will happen if the high pressure pump's controll loop will oscillate like that.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2014, 02:28:53 pm »
yeah for sure it's safe ... and that'w the reason why they placing all the bullshit on their webpage as a bitmap and not text.... (google can't index the bulshit if it's in a bitmap instead of text).
Most 'car tuning' parts are complete bullshit just like audiophool components. There is a sucker born every minute so the market is huge. I expect a tuning box to have some effect though. More power at lower RPM and maybe a few kW more power in the high end. In the NL you can't legally increase the power of the engine in your car by more than 10% without having the car tested and the registration changed. It has to do with safety; a faster car needs better brakes. I guess it is the same in many other countries.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online mikerj

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2014, 06:13:52 pm »
yeah for sure it's safe ... and that'w the reason why they placing all the bullshit on their webpage as a bitmap and not text.... (google can't index the bulshit if it's in a bitmap instead of text).

Progress!  We've suddenly shifted from "it's impossible to tune a modern CR engine via manipulating the sensor signals" to "it's not safe"  :-DD

It is pretty safe since the ECU knows the permissible range of pump or PCV drive levels, so you can only manipulate the output within those constraints.  Attempting to increase the fuel pressure too much will simply result in a fault code being thrown and the ECU dropping to it's fail safe operating mode ("limp home").
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2014, 06:13:06 am »
yeah for sure it's safe ... and that'w the reason why they placing all the bullshit on their webpage as a bitmap and not text.... (google can't index the bulshit if it's in a bitmap instead of text).

Progress!  We've suddenly shifted from "it's impossible to tune a modern CR engine via manipulating the sensor signals" to "it's not safe"  :-DD

It is pretty safe since the ECU knows the permissible range of pump or PCV drive levels, so you can only manipulate the output within those constraints.  Attempting to increase the fuel pressure too much will simply result in a fault code being thrown and the ECU dropping to it's fail safe operating mode ("limp home").

reply #26 (and that reply wasn't edited so it was there)...

Quote
and again.. anything modern simply can't be SAFELY TUNED via a "power box" , you have to manipulate (correctly and carefully) the ECU maps.
Modify message

please read the whole thread before commenting on "improvements"  ;)

can you please explain how the hell will the ECO know that the pressure is outside of permissible range if the powerbox is manipulating the pressure sensor signal ? you will always rely on the powerbox and hope it will not push the limits too far.

and don't forget guys... good long lasting engines with lot's of headroom are a thing of the past :( today's engines are already pushed closer to the limits by the manufacturer.
 

Online mikerj

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2014, 05:02:07 pm »
can you please explain how the hell will the ECO know that the pressure is outside of permissible range if the powerbox is manipulating the pressure sensor signal ? you will always rely on the powerbox and hope it will not push the limits too far.

I thought the answer was pretty obvious from my previous post, but I'll try again.

Fuel pressure is under closed loop control, i.e. the ECU measures fuel pressure and controls either the pump or the PVR to achieve a target pressure value.
The drive range to either the fuel pump or PRV is limited within the ECU.  Raising the fuel pressure by manipulating the pressure sensor readings will increase the FP/PVR drive level.
If the drive level hits the internal safety limit, the ECU reverts to it's safe operating strategy.

FWIW I'm taking Dr Diesel's advice,  I really can't be bothered trying to convince you any more.
 

Offline DeepDive

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2014, 02:42:50 am »
Can we please go ahead discussing the project specifics (hardware, firmware, software and implementation) rather than just the "perceived" cons of it?

I am actually waiting for luky315 to provide more project details so that we all can understand these "black boxes" better.

I totally agree with mikerj that it is almost impossible to overdrive the fuel rail or high pressure pump. It is just that they would be working more time at slightly higher pressures over its average pressure, but not over their hard-coded limits built into the ECU tables. MTBF may come down a tiny bit, but not big enough to be panicked about.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 02:48:42 am by DeepDive »
 

Offline ben.indo

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #63 on: December 16, 2014, 05:32:37 pm »
Hi Everyone,

Registered because of this topic.  It is safe to alter the rail pressure by fooling the CRP sensor.  ECU will throw a code when the rail pressure is too high, and the relief valve in the common rail will also engaged if the pressure is getting too high.  Higher pressure means more fuel getting delivered by the injector and also better atomization of the diesel inside the combustion chamber.

Please google racechip.  It has 2 potentiometer which set the value of power increase (or rather decrease of sensor values), and the width of the band (upper limit of voltage which the unit decrease sensor values). This 2 setting will allow fine tuning so that final setting will not make the ECU throw a fail code.

If its possible to make in Arduino, I would also take a reading of the MAP sensor, but instead of lowering value, we will increase the value, higher pressure makes the ECU command to inject more fuel. But doing this will need to take throttle value, make a 2D map/matrix of RPM and TPS for the boost pressure adjustment.

Would love to see this come to a reality. I don't know much about Arduino but I know a bit about diesel common rail system (Denso, but bosch should be similar).

Best regards,

Ben

 

Offline luky315Topic starter

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2015, 10:00:35 am »
I need informations about the input characteristics (Impedance, Bandwidth, protection circuit) from the analog inputs from different ECUs.
I have a Bosch ECU with approximately 800k input resistance and I wonder if other ECUs have similar specs.
Unfortunately I don't have informations on the analog input bandwith.
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2015, 08:43:16 am »
Forget tuning individual injections (3 to 10 per cycle); it's a piezo and the whole system is lubrificated/cooled by the fuel. Don't touch this, I dare not on a ship sized one (many orders more tolerant and resistant) so a car sized one is like modding a Swiss watch with a claw hammer.
If the engine is stock, modding it like you imply can only yield results within the tolerance - if you are lucky - 5% max. Anything more is fantasy, as a colleague of mine discovered when he destroyed litteraly every part of his engine upstream of the clutch on his Ford Galaxy; the specialised garage in Luxemburg told him to leave at the lowest level, he turned the nob to 11 and nuked it in 4 months.
But that does not mean that your idea could not have uses in "overall" management: if you change the airbox, filter, booster pump, intercooler etc... The ECU might not "understand" the implications so modding the values of airflow, heat etc it gets to make work in it's standard tune but at a higher power level might be needed / work.
But beware, more and more sensors are digital... So just amplification both positive & negative is going to do bugger all in your engine's Unicorn Output.

And a last thing, that most people forget: a 10% change in Hp implies modifying the cooling, if you don't, your engine will heat soak and reduce it's lifespan. This does not matter if you reside in Iceland.
I'm electronically illiterate
 

Online mikerj

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #66 on: February 27, 2015, 04:41:28 pm »
And a last thing, that most people forget: a 10% change in Hp implies modifying the cooling, if you don't, your engine will heat soak and reduce it's lifespan. This does not matter if you reside in Iceland.

Possibly true if you live somewhere like Arizona and you already have marginal cooling,  but most cooling systems should easily cope with an extra 10% increase in power.  Don't forget that engines are very rarely run continuously at full output for extended periods.

Also "heat soak" seems to be the most misused and misunderstood term ever.  People now commonly use this term when they really mean to say "overheating" or "getting hotter" but want to make it sound more technical and important.  Heat soak is a very specific phenomenon in engine cooling systems whereby the temperature increases when the engine is switched off due to lack of coolant circulation.
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #67 on: February 27, 2015, 06:24:08 pm »
And a last thing, that most people forget: a 10% change in Hp implies modifying the cooling, if you don't, your engine will heat soak and reduce it's lifespan. This does not matter if you reside in Iceland.

Possibly true if you live somewhere like Arizona and you already have marginal cooling,  but most cooling systems should easily cope with an extra 10% increase in power.  Don't forget that engines are very rarely run continuously at full output for extended periods.

Also "heat soak" seems to be the most misused and misunderstood term ever.  People now commonly use this term when they really mean to say "overheating" or "getting hotter" but want to make it sound more technical and important.  Heat soak is a very specific phenomenon in engine cooling systems whereby the temperature increases when the engine is switched off due to lack of coolant circulation.
If you get a real 10% across the range (not just peak), on modern engines, you might be getting too near tolerance.
10% more HP might mean anything from 12 to 25% more heat...

It's also a big differentiator between diesel and gasoline engines:
- Gasoline engines go on and off the boost, sot the intercooler (on normal street cars) acts more like a air cooled heat sink.
- On diesels, boost is always on (in some cases, no turbo, no start) so the intercooler is a constant radiator.
On bigger engines, there's a whole method to the madness of getting a clean start without the engine surging, the turbo going nuts and having a runaway...

But

« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 06:27:44 pm by gildasd »
I'm electronically illiterate
 

Offline dtnicholls

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #68 on: March 18, 2015, 09:44:34 am »
There is basically no difference between manipulating the engine map inside the ECU or "outside". The outcome is the same: more fuel in the cylinder. And as long as we stay in a reasonable range (10-25%), there is no problem with the air mixture. A diesel engine works with excess air (not like a petrol engine with Lambda = 1). And we have another mechanism working for us: More burned fuel means more exhaust which is driving the the turbocharger. And we can also manipulate the MAP-Sensor (Manifold-Absolute-Pressure).
A lot of commercial tuning Boxes work this way.
As I wrote earlier: You DONT raise the pressure all the time. Just when a "power boost" is needed.
Of course you increase the mechanical stress on all components when using the extra power. If you don't want one: fine. Your choice.
I am still looking for car enthusiasts willing and able to help with the software and test subjects.

fully agree , your statements are  100% valid for diesels with electronically controlled rotary injection pumps and pressure driven injectors (single pilot injection and the main injection) ... those engines got few variables - air flow, boost , amount of fuel to be injected... very simple, elegant and easy to tune engines...... but please stop convincing anyone that it's the same for modern common rail engines ... just have a look at the 3rd generation of VW diesels, apart from the shitload of sensors and way too complicated engine.... those even got an intake manifold flap - something seen on petrol engines only before.

So that last part isn't quite right... my 93 vintage 2LTE surf has a throttle body, it's used mostly for EGR but also to help with smoothing out startup and shutdown.

At the end of the day, the OP is just doing an open source version of the DP Chip and many others. Nothing wrong with that.

I wouldn't be messing about with fuel pressures too much though, particularly peak pressure. That really needs to stay at factory. Also, there are risks to altering fuel volume without also adjusting timing...
 

Offline brainwash

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2016, 11:56:10 am »
Resurrecting this old topic since it makes more sense than starting a new topic.
First off, I'm running such a box on a 2008 VW engine (gen 3?) and it does something, for better or worse. I've also found at least one scientific paper and several other source, linked in my post:
http://hackcorrelation.blogspot.de/2016/04/racechip-tuning-box-part-2-reverse.html

Second, having an open-source design for this makes a lot of sense. For the particular numbers, I at least know what my car is able to handle and a standard tuning box does not allow me the necessary flexibility.

The fail-safe is that the engine is run with reduced power if an abnormality is detected - a failsafe ECU curve. Search the web for SSP 350 and SSP 351 for an explanation from the source.

Third, I've been using the box for almost a year, noting the improvements and deteriorations in various fields: economy, power, torque, noise and vibrations. Also the automatic gearbox shifting behavior is altered by this, not sure exactly by which mechanism.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2016, 01:22:19 pm »
and don't forget ... in EU any modification to the engine which will result in non compliance to regulations is illegal. so you can only tune your engine within boundaries set by allowed emissions and noise levels.

Actually, I would say that any manufacturer unapproved mod is going to make you fail the mandatory technical check simply by the mere presence of the box/"chip" in the car, making it defacto illegal. Of course, if the engine exceeds the exhaust emission limits during the check above or gets you stopped by cops because of excessive noise thanks to the badly bungled ("tuned") settings, that's yet another matter.

I certainly wouldn't tinker with this stuff on a car that I have the intention to use in normal traffic and thus must be kept road legal unless you like living on the edge (I heard the fines in Austria are quite hefty!).  Outside of that - racing specials, various experimental vehicles not meant to be driven on public roads, etc. - have your fun :)

It is actually cool that there are people tinkering with this stuff, proving that even a modern engine is not running on black magic requiring only expensive manufacturer's service and know-how. Just keep it away from public roads, OK?


« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 01:27:22 pm by janoc »
 

Offline SaabFAN

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2016, 02:30:11 pm »
If you do something to your car in Germany with stuff that has no universal operating permit (Allgemeine Betriebserlaubnis), you have to let the TÜV (an agency that checks if a car meets the requirements to be road-legal) check your modification.
If the engineers there say everything is okay, it gets entered into papers of your car and is therefore road-legal.
At least that's how several people in school had to do to make their tuned up scooters legal :)

Offline brainwash

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2016, 02:58:29 pm »
AFAIK the tuning box I have has the necessary regulations, but I'm not sure ho w well recognized they are. Also not sure what happens in case of an accident (insurance, police, etc.) but it can probably be debated in court.
Regarding road-worthy and emissions I would just say this stuff is for track/private use only otherwise there'll be a gajilion anal people against, just for the sake of argument. This is being done all the time (also discussed on German forums), there is at least a defcon talk on this topic and it's really related to electronics more than to any other topic.

This is just turning into a standard debate topic: loud music, lipo batteries, cheap multimeters, arduino clones, drone registration, electronic cigarettes - with the SNR being under 10%.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2016, 06:43:29 pm »
If you do something to your car in Germany with stuff that has no universal operating permit (Allgemeine Betriebserlaubnis), you have to let the TÜV (an agency that checks if a car meets the requirements to be road-legal) check your modification.
If the engineers there say everything is okay, it gets entered into papers of your car and is therefore road-legal.
At least that's how several people in school had to do to make their tuned up scooters legal :)

I think that is pretty much universal regulation across Europe. If the gizmo isn't manufacturer-approved or doesn't have a relevant certificate/permit, it is illegal to install in the car. It is a fairly common reason to get a fine and have the car declared not roadworthy by the police - cheap aftermarket day lights, various spoilers, etc. without the required paperwork. If you get stopped by cops and they see something on the car that is obviously non-stock, they will be asking for those papers.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2016, 06:48:29 pm »
AFAIK the tuning box I have has the necessary regulations, but I'm not sure ho w well recognized they are. Also not sure what happens in case of an accident (insurance, police, etc.) but it can probably be debated in court.

I believe there is some sort of international agreement the car accessories have to follow - if the manufacturer provides the paperwork in accordance with it, then it should be recognized and you don't have to have extra testing done, only may have to have it recorded in your car papers. But YMMV ...

 

Offline Wilksey

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #75 on: April 30, 2016, 09:07:47 pm »
Am I the only one wondering for a self confessed OSHW project, where the project files are?  :-//
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #76 on: May 04, 2016, 09:50:38 am »
If you do something to your car in Germany with stuff that has no universal operating permit (Allgemeine Betriebserlaubnis), you have to let the TÜV (an agency that checks if a car meets the requirements to be road-legal) check your modification.
If the engineers there say everything is okay, it gets entered into papers of your car and is therefore road-legal.
At least that's how several people in school had to do to make their tuned up scooters legal :)
same here.
for those who wonder about an OSHW project.. most if not all the hardware is trivial, all the magic lies in the software ;)
 

Offline brainwash

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #77 on: May 04, 2016, 10:15:26 am »
I've already started working on my own version - at a slow pace - documenting the steps on my blog.
The hardware is trivial if only you've done things like this before. Even if it's not approved it should still have the possibility to be so by ensuring adequate protection:

Here's what could happen on the power supply: spike of 30, 150, 20kV, with various durations, reverse polarity, 24V for a minute. All modules should accept shorting data lines to VCC and GND without failure. Are the parts being used documented for this? I haven't seen anything related to this in the ESP8266 datasheet for example, what the ESD protection diodes are able to withstand.

The original sensor is specced for 12-20mA current draw, 2-5mA current output, is the module able to work within those limits? How much load does the ECU expect on the VCC (5V) line? What's its input impedance?
You could get by using some existing 12V from somewhere else but then everything changes.

What connectors are in use? There's Bosch Kompact, there are some from TE (available only in qty >4k or 'sourced' from ali*), but there might be quite a few others. You could splice the wires, but what then?

The sensor has 2 voltage options: 5V and 12V - with different requirements. The 5V one has error signaling at 0-0.5V and 4.8-5V. Is the module able to forward these voltages back to the ECU? Rather, is the opamp you are using for buffering able to swing that much?

What's the response time of the original sensor? Is the ECU using that information?
What's the voltage offset? How much is the ECU able to compensate for? (that's why older Bosch ECUs work with a resistor and new ones don't)

Failure modes?

Temperature range, water ingress, vibration tolerance...

Doable? Yes. Trivial? Up to you to decide.



Anyway, my plan is to feed the data back via wireless (something low-power) to get telemetry data: idle, snap acceleration, city and highway rpm/pressure range. Since it's a two-way communication you should be able to send a response curve back to the device that applies an offset based on the input. A curve with 5-10 data points should be enough. It would output the unmodified signal if no commands are given or the MCU locks up.
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #78 on: May 07, 2016, 12:04:51 am »
I find it strange that some people insist in detuning their engine...
Too much money I suppose.

Now a really interesting project would be recreate an ECU from scratch.
But knowing the complexity involved, that won't happen soon.

Offline janoc

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #79 on: May 08, 2016, 04:12:44 pm »
I find it strange that some people insist in detuning their engine...
Too much money I suppose.

Now a really interesting project would be recreate an ECU from scratch.
But knowing the complexity involved, that won't happen soon.

That did happen already:
http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
or this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaSquirt

 
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Offline brainwash

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #80 on: May 23, 2016, 01:16:51 pm »
Here's my progress so far: http://hackcorrelation.blogspot.de/2016/05/designing-better-diesel-tuning-box-part_23.html

TL;DR version: ">30% fuel savings while idle." "25% highway mileage increase".

This was a version done as a proof of concept, I still have to wait and see if the ECU will adapt itself to the new values and revert to the old consumption, but so far it was on the car for more than 600km.
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #81 on: May 23, 2016, 06:45:33 pm »
Doable? Yes. Trivial? Up to you to decide.
there is one line of high class tuning boxes that is two PIC18 and two can transceivers. period. nothing else on the board (well, a bit of supply filtering and protection but that's it)
That one can be used with a limited range of cars (also because you need to decode/encode the messages from/to the ECU and for that you have to know the right people) but that's an example on how simple it can become on the hardware side
others that i've opened never had impressive hardware or protection anyway
 

Offline russian2

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #82 on: June 23, 2016, 01:03:50 am »
That did happen already:
http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
And this is OSHW by the way. See also https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/rusefi-open-source-standalone-engine-management-system/

I would love to add diesel logic into the firmware once we find somebody to try this on a diesel.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 01:17:20 am by russian2 »
 

Offline harlesk

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #83 on: May 04, 2023, 12:34:10 pm »
Did anyone get any further with this?

I have had Diesel boxes on several of my cars but have always been interested if there was something more open source available.
 

Offline brainwash

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #84 on: May 05, 2023, 08:17:02 am »
I did link above to a blog post which was eventually continued and a project was published some years ago. But after extensive testing I've figured out that it doesn't do much. The consumption is almost exactly the same, there is some additional low-end torque (depending on settings). Basically the computer things it's pumping less fuel so it's compensating. The estimated consumption looks lower than the real one since the car computer doesn't have the correct data to calculate it.

The new TL;DR is: don't bother.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #85 on: May 06, 2023, 07:34:37 pm »
What I did with my turbo diesel was make the ECU think there was more pressure in the inlet then there actually was causing it to inject more fuel at low RPM. That was a 5 cent diode in series with the pressure sensor signal to give it a bit of offset. Worked like a charm to get more power at low RPM.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2023, 07:47:09 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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