Author Topic: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box  (Read 58165 times)

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Offline senso

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2014, 03:57:18 am »
There is basically no difference between manipulating the engine map inside the ECU or "outside". The outcome is the same: more fuel in the cylinder. And as long as we stay in a reasonable range (10-25%), there is no problem with the air mixture. A diesel engine works with excess air (not like a petrol engine with Lambda = 1). And we have another mechanism working for us: More burned fuel means more exhaust which is driving the the turbocharger. And we can also manipulate the MAP-Sensor (Manifold-Absolute-Pressure).
A lot of commercial tuning Boxes work this way.
As I wrote earlier: You DONT raise the pressure all the time. Just when a "power boost" is needed.
Of course you increase the mechanical stress on all components when using the extra power. If you don't want one: fine. Your choice.
I am still looking for car enthusiasts willing and able to help with the software and test subjects.

fully agree , your statements are  100% valid for diesels with electronically controlled rotary injection pumps and pressure driven injectors (single pilot injection and the main injection) ... those engines got few variables - air flow, boost , amount of fuel to be injected... very simple, elegant and easy to tune engines...... but please stop convincing anyone that it's the same for modern common rail engines ... just have a look at the 3rd generation of VW diesels, apart from the shitload of sensors and way too complicated engine.... those even got an intake manifold flap - something seen on petrol engines only before.

Not to rain in your parade, but my Strakar L200 from 2001 has an intake manifold flap, made by Mikuni, so its a sort of common thing.
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2014, 07:00:29 am »
Not to rain in your parade, but my Strakar L200 from 2001 has an intake manifold flap, made by Mikuni, so its a sort of common thing.

so your diesel engine is considered a modern one ;) in my post i was basically comparing against the easy tunable electronically controlled rotary injection pump engines - and that was every VW TDI engine developed from the 1Z engine and produced in the late 90' by the VW concern. so your 2001 engine might be a modern one compared to those ;)

and again.. anything modern simply can't be SAFELY TUNED via a "power box" , you have to manipulate (correctly and carefully) the ECU maps.
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2014, 07:11:17 am »
Nothing I can show will convince rob77 and people like him that the thing is real. Or would a schematic really convince you? Don't feed the Troll...

Is someone here who is able to understand the function of a common rail diesel engine and likes writing software? At the moment the necessary parameters in the arduino firmware are "hard-coded". It works, but only on my engine and certanly not optimal. A PC interface to show the signals and change the parameters while driving would be the next step.
And how do you check that it is really working and not a placebo effect. Like audiofools are hearing how power cable changes the sound  :-DD

it's very simple ;)  louder, noisier, makes more smoke and it's overheating.... got to be more powerful  :-DD
 

Offline luky315Topic starter

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2014, 07:55:05 am »
If someone wants to work with me on this project, please send me a PM.
Enough trolling and smattering for this week!
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2014, 08:02:28 am »
If someone wants to work with me on this project, please send me a PM.
Enough trolling and smattering for this week!

Don't take it personally it's an engineering tendency, hang around and you'll get used to it :)
 

Offline luky315Topic starter

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2014, 11:21:53 am »
In my world (i'm an EE with a few years of experience in small and big companies, including the automotive industry) a "real" engineer stays silent if he or she is in doubt. Marketing and Sales people are usually overconfident and "decide" what can be done in no time. And then it begins... Again.
 

Offline mc

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2014, 06:10:47 pm »
This is possible, however you really need to know the limits of each major system type, and how each engine manufacturer implements the system. Some systems have potential to be manipulated, but others will pick up issues reasonably quickly.

Anything modern with a DPF is likely to have a wide band oxygen sensor combined with exhaust temp sensors, which allows the ECU to monitor the exhaust and will self-learn/adjust the values it reads from other sensors and adjust the air/fuel mixture accordingly to bring the exhaust oxygen level back into spec, so any minor manipulation is only likely to provide a short term gain, and any major manipulation will trigger faults.
 

Offline mikerj

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2014, 08:31:01 pm »
and again.. anything modern simply can't be SAFELY TUNED via a "power box" , you have to manipulate (correctly and carefully) the ECU maps.

You seem to be (quite aggressively) displaying a lot of ignorance on how modern common rail systems function.  It's not only entirely possible to increase the power output with relative safety, you can buy a wide range of 'tuning boxes' to achieve this.

You can only increase fuel pressure by so much before protection systems with the ECU will flag a fault, but to suggest that is can't be done at all is ridiculous.
 

Offline pmbrunelle

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2014, 04:23:09 am »
It would seem easier to make a complete computer to run all the engine's functions. Something like FreeEMS, but for diesel.

Spoofing sensor inputs and hoping that the OE black-box mystery computer will react a certain way seems to be the most convoluted/kludged way to retune an engine.
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2014, 03:49:32 pm »
and again.. anything modern simply can't be SAFELY TUNED via a "power box" , you have to manipulate (correctly and carefully) the ECU maps.

You seem to be (quite aggressively) displaying a lot of ignorance on how modern common rail systems function.  It's not only entirely possible to increase the power output with relative safety, you can buy a wide range of 'tuning boxes' to achieve this.

You can only increase fuel pressure by so much before protection systems with the ECU will flag a fault, but to suggest that is can't be done at all is ridiculous.

have you ever used such a "tuning box" ? did you know that the fuel pressure is ONLY ONE VARIABLE determining the amount of fuel injected for common rail engines ? did you even know that there are several injections (even 5+ injections for modern CRs) per cycle , not just the single pilot and main injection per cycle as it was with rotary pumps and pressure driven injectors.

all of those "tuning boxes" are either a scam or something what will give you some boost, but will destroy your engine after few tens of thousands of kilometers.

 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2014, 03:50:33 pm »
It would seem easier to make a complete computer to run all the engine's functions. Something like FreeEMS, but for diesel.

good luck with that - many years of development and many destroyed engines till you get there ;)
 

Offline senso

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2014, 05:00:07 pm »
MegaSquirt ECU's also seem to be popular and there is a lot of tuners using them, but all the testint/fine tuning is done in a rolling road/dyno.
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2014, 08:54:48 pm »
MegaSquirt ECU's also seem to be popular and there is a lot of tuners using them, but all the testint/fine tuning is done in a rolling road/dyno.

that megasquirt is off the bucket ;) quote from their web:

Quote
MegaSquirt® controllers will work on virtually any liquid fueled spark-ignition engine, naturally aspirated or boosted (up to 21 psi boost with the standard MAP sensor) as long as they are not 'pollution controlled'.

the topic was a Turbo Diesel Tuning Box for modern common rail engines. ;)  but otherwise that megasquirt might be an interesting piece of hardware - as a learning platform ;)
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2014, 09:13:16 pm »
I have used MS on several gasser builds, it's a very functional unit.

The MS hardware is also the OEM for some of the larger professionally sold units, don't recall the names off the top of my head.

Offline senso

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2014, 11:26:24 pm »
MegaSquirt ECU's also seem to be popular and there is a lot of tuners using them, but all the testint/fine tuning is done in a rolling road/dyno.

that megasquirt is off the bucket ;) quote from their web:

Quote
MegaSquirt® controllers will work on virtually any liquid fueled spark-ignition engine, naturally aspirated or boosted (up to 21 psi boost with the standard MAP sensor) as long as they are not 'pollution controlled'.

the topic was a Turbo Diesel Tuning Box for modern common rail engines. ;)  but otherwise that megasquirt might be an interesting piece of hardware - as a learning platform ;)

Sorry, had the idea that they already had a unit for diesel engines.
 

Offline wagon

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2014, 05:15:22 am »
I've been running a MS box for about 8years now, they do work well.

One big factor here, the engine will only run as well as your tuning allows.
Hiding from the missus, she doesn't understand.
 

Offline mc

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2014, 11:48:06 pm »
Sorry, had the idea that they already had a unit for diesel engines.

It's all to do with technology, so here's a quick summary.

Ignoring the similar things both ECUs have to monitor/control, the basics a petrol ECU has to do, is control fuel pressure using a bit PWM of the fuel pump, inject the correct amount of fuel at roughly the correct time, and fire the sparkplugs with reasonable accuracy and adjust the timing according to the knock sensor feedback.
When I say roughly, within a degree is usually good enough for a petrol engine to run smoothly.

Now take a modern diesel. It has to control fuel pressure again using PWM but via a solenoid valve on a mechanical pump, so you have the added factor of the amount of regulation varying with engine speed/load, and due to the tolerances on modern systems, this has to be a self learning function to continually adapt as things wear. Then you have to provide ~80V to open the injectors multiple times with accurate timing (latest engines are using upto 7 distinct injection pulses) and vary the fuel quantity according to required torque, aswell as monitoring and compensating for cylinder balance and knock. Then you have particulate filter monitoring/regenerating with some of the latest cars having urea injection, and not forgetting electronic turbo wastegates.

Common between petrol and diesel are things like EGR, o2 sensors, air flow, atmospheric and manifold pressure, electronic throttle bodies, electric thermostats, and engine ECUs also often handle the A/C and cooling fans.

Then on top of that, you need the fault monitoring. Petrols will usually just run rough/cut-out if something goes wrong, whereas a diesel runs the very potential risk of extensive engine damage if something goes wrong and doesn't get detected quick enough.
 

Offline pmbrunelle

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2014, 04:49:03 am »
Sorry, had the idea that they already had a unit for diesel engines.

It's all to do with technology, so here's a quick summary.

Ignoring the similar things both ECUs have to monitor/control, the basics a petrol ECU has to do, is control fuel pressure using a bit PWM of the fuel pump, inject the correct amount of fuel at roughly the correct time, and fire the sparkplugs with reasonable accuracy and adjust the timing according to the knock sensor feedback.
When I say roughly, within a degree is usually good enough for a petrol engine to run smoothly.

Now take a modern diesel. It has to control fuel pressure again using PWM but via a solenoid valve on a mechanical pump, so you have the added factor of the amount of regulation varying with engine speed/load, and due to the tolerances on modern systems, this has to be a self learning function to continually adapt as things wear. Then you have to provide ~80V to open the injectors multiple times with accurate timing (latest engines are using upto 7 distinct injection pulses) and vary the fuel quantity according to required torque, aswell as monitoring and compensating for cylinder balance and knock. Then you have particulate filter monitoring/regenerating with some of the latest cars having urea injection, and not forgetting electronic turbo wastegates.

Common between petrol and diesel are things like EGR, o2 sensors, air flow, atmospheric and manifold pressure, electronic throttle bodies, electric thermostats, and engine ECUs also often handle the A/C and cooling fans.

Then on top of that, you need the fault monitoring. Petrols will usually just run rough/cut-out if something goes wrong, whereas a diesel runs the very potential risk of extensive engine damage if something goes wrong and doesn't get detected quick enough.

You're making it seem really complicated to run an engine decently. There's what OEMs need to do to pass XYZ regulations, and then there's what's actually necessary to have a nice-driving vehicle. Most of what you mentioned can be ignored/not implemented for a DIY engine computer.
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2014, 07:10:26 am »
Sorry, had the idea that they already had a unit for diesel engines.

It's all to do with technology, so here's a quick summary.

Ignoring the similar things both ECUs have to monitor/control, the basics a petrol ECU has to do, is control fuel pressure using a bit PWM of the fuel pump, inject the correct amount of fuel at roughly the correct time, and fire the sparkplugs with reasonable accuracy and adjust the timing according to the knock sensor feedback.
When I say roughly, within a degree is usually good enough for a petrol engine to run smoothly.

Now take a modern diesel. It has to control fuel pressure again using PWM but via a solenoid valve on a mechanical pump, so you have the added factor of the amount of regulation varying with engine speed/load, and due to the tolerances on modern systems, this has to be a self learning function to continually adapt as things wear. Then you have to provide ~80V to open the injectors multiple times with accurate timing (latest engines are using upto 7 distinct injection pulses) and vary the fuel quantity according to required torque, aswell as monitoring and compensating for cylinder balance and knock. Then you have particulate filter monitoring/regenerating with some of the latest cars having urea injection, and not forgetting electronic turbo wastegates.

Common between petrol and diesel are things like EGR, o2 sensors, air flow, atmospheric and manifold pressure, electronic throttle bodies, electric thermostats, and engine ECUs also often handle the A/C and cooling fans.

Then on top of that, you need the fault monitoring. Petrols will usually just run rough/cut-out if something goes wrong, whereas a diesel runs the very potential risk of extensive engine damage if something goes wrong and doesn't get detected quick enough.

You're making it seem really complicated to run an engine decently. There's what OEMs need to do to pass XYZ regulations, and then there's what's actually necessary to have a nice-driving vehicle. Most of what you mentioned can be ignored/not implemented for a DIY engine computer.

please stop confusing the MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINES with the old fashion turbo diesels with rotary injection pumps or with the first generation common rail... what we're trying to tell you, is that there is NO WAY of safely tuning a MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE with a tuning box because the MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE is way too complicated.

and don't forget ... in EU any modification to the engine which will result in non compliance to regulations is illegal. so you can only tune your engine within boundaries set by allowed emissions and noise levels.
 

Offline wagon

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2014, 10:52:37 am »
What surprises me is how well engine electronic control last.  For example, Cummins have had the 'Celect' and 'Celect plus' since the early 1990's on heavy diesels.  These are bolted to the side of the motor!  I've repaired quite a few, most of the faults are SMD electrolytics that have leaked.  Caterpillar also bolt their devices to the side of their motors and quite a few have water jackets!

Now, to get to my point, it's quite common to to upload a new 'tune' to the controllers without doing any mechanical changes, like a C18 could be derated to 500hp or run as hard as 650hp.  Given how much they cost if you bust one, you wouldn't want to get it wrong through tricking sensors and stuff, would you.
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Offline dr.diesel

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2014, 11:31:50 am »
is that there is NO WAY of safely tuning a MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE with a tuning box because the MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE is way too complicated.


 |O

 :palm:

This is simply not true.  Piggy back systems are still available for modern common rail engines, by modern I assume you mean the past ~10 years.

Piggy back has some advantages over ECM reflash.  First of all, OEM ECMs are so damn complicated it takes a while for tuner companies to crack them.  Also, some of the very latest ECM detect and count ECM reflashes, which "informs" the dealership of tampering, in-line/piggy back systems are still not detectable if you end up in a warranty situation.

Last big advantage, piggy back systems more easily allow for selectable tunes via rotary dash switch, this is very desirable for many, economy tune, to a race tune while driving down the street. 

Just one example of a popular piggy back system, up to 13' model year

https://www.diablosport.com/products/powerpuck.html

Lastly, when all out performance is demanded, neither a piggy back or a reflash will do, nothing beats a P-Pump.

Offline m100

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2014, 11:39:49 am »
and don't forget ... in EU any modification to the engine which will result in non compliance to regulations is illegal.

That is precisely why it is done.  Some people apparently run all year round without a catalytic converter and only fit it for the emissions test.    ::)
 

Offline pmbrunelle

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2014, 01:21:24 am »
Sorry, had the idea that they already had a unit for diesel engines.

It's all to do with technology, so here's a quick summary.

Ignoring the similar things both ECUs have to monitor/control, the basics a petrol ECU has to do, is control fuel pressure using a bit PWM of the fuel pump, inject the correct amount of fuel at roughly the correct time, and fire the sparkplugs with reasonable accuracy and adjust the timing according to the knock sensor feedback.
When I say roughly, within a degree is usually good enough for a petrol engine to run smoothly.

Now take a modern diesel. It has to control fuel pressure again using PWM but via a solenoid valve on a mechanical pump, so you have the added factor of the amount of regulation varying with engine speed/load, and due to the tolerances on modern systems, this has to be a self learning function to continually adapt as things wear. Then you have to provide ~80V to open the injectors multiple times with accurate timing (latest engines are using upto 7 distinct injection pulses) and vary the fuel quantity according to required torque, aswell as monitoring and compensating for cylinder balance and knock. Then you have particulate filter monitoring/regenerating with some of the latest cars having urea injection, and not forgetting electronic turbo wastegates.

Common between petrol and diesel are things like EGR, o2 sensors, air flow, atmospheric and manifold pressure, electronic throttle bodies, electric thermostats, and engine ECUs also often handle the A/C and cooling fans.

Then on top of that, you need the fault monitoring. Petrols will usually just run rough/cut-out if something goes wrong, whereas a diesel runs the very potential risk of extensive engine damage if something goes wrong and doesn't get detected quick enough.

You're making it seem really complicated to run an engine decently. There's what OEMs need to do to pass XYZ regulations, and then there's what's actually necessary to have a nice-driving vehicle. Most of what you mentioned can be ignored/not implemented for a DIY engine computer.

please stop confusing the MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINES with the old fashion turbo diesels with rotary injection pumps or with the first generation common rail... what we're trying to tell you, is that there is NO WAY of safely tuning a MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE with a tuning box because the MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE is way too complicated.

and don't forget ... in EU any modification to the engine which will result in non compliance to regulations is illegal. so you can only tune your engine within boundaries set by allowed emissions and noise levels.

What exactly is complicated about tuning a modern diesel engine... if you only seek a level of refinement that is on-par with mechanical injection? Consider that for us hobbyists compliance with emissions is irrelevant.

Is it the lack of a prechamber?

Furthermore, I would never suggest a man-in-the-middle tuning box, only a complete computer replacement.
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2014, 07:41:56 pm »
Sorry, had the idea that they already had a unit for diesel engines.

It's all to do with technology, so here's a quick summary.

Ignoring the similar things both ECUs have to monitor/control, the basics a petrol ECU has to do, is control fuel pressure using a bit PWM of the fuel pump, inject the correct amount of fuel at roughly the correct time, and fire the sparkplugs with reasonable accuracy and adjust the timing according to the knock sensor feedback.
When I say roughly, within a degree is usually good enough for a petrol engine to run smoothly.

Now take a modern diesel. It has to control fuel pressure again using PWM but via a solenoid valve on a mechanical pump, so you have the added factor of the amount of regulation varying with engine speed/load, and due to the tolerances on modern systems, this has to be a self learning function to continually adapt as things wear. Then you have to provide ~80V to open the injectors multiple times with accurate timing (latest engines are using upto 7 distinct injection pulses) and vary the fuel quantity according to required torque, aswell as monitoring and compensating for cylinder balance and knock. Then you have particulate filter monitoring/regenerating with some of the latest cars having urea injection, and not forgetting electronic turbo wastegates.

Common between petrol and diesel are things like EGR, o2 sensors, air flow, atmospheric and manifold pressure, electronic throttle bodies, electric thermostats, and engine ECUs also often handle the A/C and cooling fans.

Then on top of that, you need the fault monitoring. Petrols will usually just run rough/cut-out if something goes wrong, whereas a diesel runs the very potential risk of extensive engine damage if something goes wrong and doesn't get detected quick enough.

You're making it seem really complicated to run an engine decently. There's what OEMs need to do to pass XYZ regulations, and then there's what's actually necessary to have a nice-driving vehicle. Most of what you mentioned can be ignored/not implemented for a DIY engine computer.

please stop confusing the MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINES with the old fashion turbo diesels with rotary injection pumps or with the first generation common rail... what we're trying to tell you, is that there is NO WAY of safely tuning a MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE with a tuning box because the MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE is way too complicated.

and don't forget ... in EU any modification to the engine which will result in non compliance to regulations is illegal. so you can only tune your engine within boundaries set by allowed emissions and noise levels.

What exactly is complicated about tuning a modern diesel engine... if you only seek a level of refinement that is on-par with mechanical injection? Consider that for us hobbyists compliance with emissions is irrelevant.

Is it the lack of a prechamber?

Furthermore, I would never suggest a man-in-the-middle tuning box, only a complete computer replacement.

and exactly that was my point ! it's impossible to tune a modern CR engine via manipulating the sensor signals (a.k.a. tuning/power box) you have to manipulate the ECU maps (or if you wish , develop a whole new ECU).
 

Offline rob77

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Re: OSHW Turbo Diesel Tuning Box
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2014, 07:55:39 pm »
is that there is NO WAY of safely tuning a MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE with a tuning box because the MODERN COMMON RAIL ENGINE is way too complicated.


 |O

 :palm:

This is simply not true.  Piggy back systems are still available for modern common rail engines, by modern I assume you mean the past ~10 years.

Piggy back has some advantages over ECM reflash.  First of all, OEM ECMs are so damn complicated it takes a while for tuner companies to crack them.  Also, some of the very latest ECM detect and count ECM reflashes, which "informs" the dealership of tampering, in-line/piggy back systems are still not detectable if you end up in a warranty situation.

Last big advantage, piggy back systems more easily allow for selectable tunes via rotary dash switch, this is very desirable for many, economy tune, to a race tune while driving down the street. 

Just one example of a popular piggy back system, up to 13' model year

https://www.diablosport.com/products/powerpuck.html

Lastly, when all out performance is demanded, neither a piggy back or a reflash will do, nothing beats a P-Pump.

modern means up to 5-6 yrs old, or in other words anything what uses a pump capable of making 2000 bars of pressure in  the injection rail and uses fine and fast injectors capable 5+ injections per cycle.

if a car is '13 model (especially in the US) it doesn't mean it's a modern CR engine - in the US the diesel fuel is so bad that VW stopped selling diesel cars there... the issues with GM cars using the Bosch CP4.2 pump is another proof of the low diesel fuel quality in the US... so it means there will be not too much of modern CRs in the US.

do you really believe that bullshit promising +100 horsepower ? ... well ok.. it's possible with bigger engines, but you'll be invisible because of the black smoke behind you.


EDIT:

checked that powerpuck web more in detail - it's only for older engines (upto bosch CP3 pumps) and mainly for big ass engines (in Europe we're using such engines in trucks) ... btw.. a modern CR engine for GM cars has a displacement of 3 litres ONLY and it's called Ecodiesiel. and that one is not listed among the engines which are tunable by that powerpuck.

FYI... in EU a 2.0 litre CR diesel is a standard size for mid-class cars.. lower end cars are using even smaller ones... 1.4 - 1.6 litre.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 08:20:55 pm by rob77 »
 


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