Author Topic: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator  (Read 25646 times)

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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2012, 03:50:06 pm »
Why not print a 3-D printer?
So you have a free one :-)
why not print more? so you have a free one, and sell more at much cheaper price :D
It's extremely difficult to start life.. one features of nature.. physical laws are mathematical theory of great beauty... You may wonder Why? our knowledge shows that nature is so constructed. We simply have to accept it. One could describe the situation by saying that... (Paul Dirac)
 

Offline joseph.anand

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #51 on: August 15, 2012, 04:40:55 pm »
Why not print a 3-D printer?
So you have a free one :-)
I am not a mechanical engineer, but I think the quality of 3d printed gears is not likely to be as good as the injection molded ones. At the very least they may be good enough for some robotics/mechatronics projects. So while you may have a 3d printed printer, it may not be less precise than the original.
 

Offline FJV

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #52 on: August 15, 2012, 04:52:45 pm »
Quote
I disagree. Being able to put something together cheaper is also innovation. 15 years ago my first HP laserprinter (professional grade) cost me approx. €1200. Last year I bought a new professional grade HP laserprinter for €200. Not only is it cheaper but it has a several neat features like double-sided printing and a network interface.

IMHO it is a good thing that people try to market quality 3D printers for lower prices. Once they become affordable for the big masses the prices will get lower and the number of features will go through the roof. I bet that within a few years someone will come up with a way to print using aluminium or even steel.

The business model of inkjet printers changed *1). It used to be that the money was made on the printer and not the ink. Nowadays the money is made on the ink and not the printer. Even to the point that a replacement cartridge for an inkjet printer costs more than the printer cost brand new.

Is a cheap 3D printer that cannot be serviced with hugely expensive refills, which are chipped  ;) really progress?




 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #53 on: August 15, 2012, 06:22:42 pm »
Nowadays the money is made on the ink and not the printer. Even to the point that a replacement cartridge for an inkjet printer costs more than the printer cost brand new.
Is a cheap 3D printer that cannot be serviced with hugely expensive refills, which are chipped  ;) really progress?
no worry, china is ready for 3rd party cheap refills.
It's extremely difficult to start life.. one features of nature.. physical laws are mathematical theory of great beauty... You may wonder Why? our knowledge shows that nature is so constructed. We simply have to accept it. One could describe the situation by saying that... (Paul Dirac)
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #54 on: August 15, 2012, 09:02:25 pm »
The only thing keeping me from buying any of the existing 3D printers or CNC milling machines is the absence of a feedback mechanism. For the same price, I reckon I should be able to make one with a feedback mechanism. For the time being, I am stuck with deciding on a rotary encoder with suitable gear ratio or a linear encoder for feedback. Any pointers anyone?

If all you care about is knowing if your stepper missed a step,  ignore all of the following and put a encoder on your stepper;

Assuming you are going to do a true servo control loop on the axis and you care about bidirectional accuracy and  repeatbility:

1. Rotary encoder with gearing is the worst. the backlash in the geartrain will add a large amount of position error on top of #2 below. Also will make servo tuning to a fine level next to impossible.

2. Rotary encoder directly on the leadscrew or pulley of a belt system.  Still has the play or reversal error of the leadscrew/nut or pulley/belt combination.

3. linear encoder is the best. It measures the position directly and bypasses most all mechanical innacuracies of the axis. (there are still a huge number of things to consider to get the most out of the linear encoder feedback).  It does not mean you can have a sloppy mechanical system. You will never get the servo loop tuned if the mechanics are sloppy. You may also need to have a separate motor encoder for closing the velocity loop of your control system independent of the positional control loop that is closed by the linear encoder.

What about an optical encoder? They are more robust than mechanical ones and I believe they are more reliable as well. If they are going to include a servo loop, they should control it with a separate processor that can compensate for inertia instead of moving the whole axis back because of overshoot.
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #55 on: August 15, 2012, 09:04:57 pm »
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2012, 11:26:40 pm »
The only thing keeping me from buying any of the existing 3D printers or CNC milling machines is the absence of a feedback mechanism. For the same price, I reckon I should be able to make one with a feedback mechanism. For the time being, I am stuck with deciding on a rotary encoder with suitable gear ratio or a linear encoder for feedback. Any pointers anyone?

If all you care about is knowing if your stepper missed a step,  ignore all of the following and put a encoder on your stepper;

Assuming you are going to do a true servo control loop on the axis and you care about bidirectional accuracy and  repeatbility:

1. Rotary encoder with gearing is the worst. the backlash in the geartrain will add a large amount of position error on top of #2 below. Also will make servo tuning to a fine level next to impossible.

2. Rotary encoder directly on the leadscrew or pulley of a belt system.  Still has the play or reversal error of the leadscrew/nut or pulley/belt combination.

3. linear encoder is the best. It measures the position directly and bypasses most all mechanical innacuracies of the axis. (there are still a huge number of things to consider to get the most out of the linear encoder feedback).  It does not mean you can have a sloppy mechanical system. You will never get the servo loop tuned if the mechanics are sloppy. You may also need to have a separate motor encoder for closing the velocity loop of your control system independent of the positional control loop that is closed by the linear encoder.

What about an optical encoder? They are more robust than mechanical ones and I believe they are more reliable as well. If they are going to include a servo loop, they should control it with a separate processor that can compensate for inertia instead of moving the whole axis back because of overshoot.

I was only talking about optical encoders.  There is no overshoot in a well tuned servoloop.

Offline nctnico

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2012, 12:05:31 am »
Makerbot should make something that looks like this:

-soliddoodle image-

http://store.solidoodle.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=56
Looking closely at the results of the soliddoodle device I must say I'm not impressed.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Poe

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2012, 03:29:00 pm »
...
Acrylic is probably a very bad idea. It it's clear then you can see all the guts and ugly wiring etc (just look at the Thing-O-Matic). And if it's opaque colour then it's going to look pretty gimmicky and "plasticy".
...
Dave.

You could do what Apple did... and one of my personal favorite prototype tricks.  Make it out of clear plastic and apply the color to the inside.




...or sandblast the inside.


I agree with comments regarding how 3D printers could be improved.  Currently, I can't justify the price given the poor resolution, restrictions and DIY'esk support.  If the price dropped and/or the product improved... I'm sure they would become ubiquitous. 

Even at work I find it's worth the relatively small cost to have a place like Shapeways make it.  Completely hassle free, better resolution/quality, alternate/useful matterials (metal/ceramic), no design restrictions (overhangs) and relatively cheap. 
http://www.shapeways.com/model/565087/raspberry-pi-standard-case.html
http://www.shapeways.com/model/327470/gopro-tripod-mount.html
http://www.shapeways.com/model/95280/swing-motion-truck-22-7-mm-axles.html

A desktop unit like the Replicator or this knockoff is convenient, but the speed isn't worth the trade-offs IMHO... at that price.  I would rather spend three times as much and get a better quality professional unit.

The RepRap project goals are ridiculous.  Instead of trying (and to date failing) to 'self-replicate', design a 3D printer that can be manufactured cheaply.  There are plenty of individuals brave enough to form a company around an open source design. Maybe that would be a good project for this forum?

There's a machine I worked on which detected its position in 3D space with some kind of oscillating magnetic field.  The concept still has me puzzled.

Oh BTW, the guy behind TangiBot (Matt Strong) recently commented regarding support:
"Adjunct Engineering LLC,

I in no way plan on pushing off support to Makerbot. I am building a company and in doing so I plan on supporting my own community.

Thanks,
Matt Strong"
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 11:51:52 pm by Poe »
 

jucole

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #59 on: August 17, 2012, 01:11:38 pm »
I think is a little sad...

me too.  he should have really teamed up with Makerbot to innovate and reduce the price, because they'll be up against the big boys soon!  I couldn't justify the cost of either of these myself; I'd have to print lots of stuff to get my money back, with the basic choice of colours my house would quickly look like an early learning centre for kids.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 08:58:21 am by jucole »
 

Offline mackletus

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2012, 03:22:46 pm »
Hello there,

The reaction from the community was to be expected, the open hardware community has always given the "bad eye" to any "copycat" using free designs for commercial purposes, and yes, OSH is about giving your design away for free, but I think always looking for people to build upon it, not just copy.

There is a BIG difference between making a copy for yourself or for a small group of friends or a hackerspace, and to try and build a company "for profit" on somebody else design (Just slapping a "new" logo/name is not enough).

If anything, Matt had failed to demonstrate his abilities by not bringing any innovation to the product he is using to "Kickstart" his company and that may be an irreparable mistake.

I hope this gets MakerBot on it's toes, they got a FREE market study, if there's anybody "listening" to these forums, only one thing is clear: "people want affordable/reliable 3D printers".

May be they will realize this and steer on the "right" direction, or may be somebody will catch up and come up with some "real" competition. May be even Matt will regroup and relaunch his plan.

We'll see....

Just my two cents...

MacKletus
(A.K.A. Victor Milazzo :))
 

Offline poorchava

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2012, 03:42:03 pm »
I guess that the easiest way to level the platform is to add adjustable height standoffs under the machine, which would enable user to make it perfectly level, and then some high precision mems gyroscope attached to the build platform. I'm not that much into mems sensors, so I dunno if this is possible to achieve such high precision on a commercial mems sensor.
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Online EEVblog

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #62 on: September 20, 2012, 12:48:56 pm »
I hope this gets MakerBot on it's toes, they got a FREE market study, if there's anybody "listening" to these forums, only one thing is clear: "people want affordable/reliable 3D printers".

Well, with the recent announcement of the Replicator 2, Makerbot have gone in the completely opposite direction!
I was a tad surprised.

Dave.
 

Offline bullet308

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #63 on: September 20, 2012, 02:59:05 pm »
Cant say I was surprised. They would be hard-pressed to tool up and compete with lower-cost producers. The cats out of the bag when it comes to the low end and that can serve as a basis for people to start knocking out cheap clones done properly; even if the TangiBot effort came up short, I am inclined to believe that somebody like them *will* get it right sooner rather than later and at a price-point that MB probably wants no part of. If you look at how much small CNC milling machine you can get out of China now even cheaper than any of the 3D printers to-date (and I regard machine tools as being a good bit more challenging to design and make overall), you can see that MB has very little room to maneuver at the consumer level. And how about if somebody like an HP wants to play? How'd you like to be out on a limb with a lot of consumer grade stuff just in time for a Fortune 500 player decides to stomp you? Ugly.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #64 on: September 20, 2012, 05:54:18 pm »
Hello there,

The reaction from the community was to be expected, the open hardware community has always given the "bad eye" to any "copycat" using free designs for commercial purposes, and yes, OSH is about giving your design away for free, but I think always looking for people to build upon it, not just copy.


they should change their terms then... it explicitly allows to commercialize the designs... maybe they can put a note in ( but if you do we will give you the stink-eye )
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Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #65 on: September 24, 2012, 10:58:40 am »
Why not print a 3-D printer?
So you have a free one :-)
I am not a mechanical engineer, but ...

And you do not notice when someone is making a joke :-)
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Online EEVblog

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #66 on: September 24, 2012, 11:42:49 am »
they should change their terms then... it explicitly allows to commercialize the designs...

Yes, but it is generally expected that you also "play nice", and at least change/improve something, and generally not play heavily upon their name or reputation.
That kinda "warm-fuzzy" is hard to put into legal terms.
IMO it was a mistake for the OSHW community to not put a few of these "play nice" things into the documented "philosophy".
If some people don't agree with that "warm fuzzy" stuff, and just want to play legal-eagle, that's their right, but they risk getting burned like the Tangibot guy did. Because that's reality of how the OSHW community generally operates.

Dave.
 

Offline Poe

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Re: The TangiBot 3D Printer, a clone of Makerbot Replicator
« Reply #67 on: January 19, 2013, 05:57:34 pm »
...
Make it out of clear plastic and apply the color to the inside.
...or sandblast the inside.


Well at least 3D systems likes that look.

 


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