Author Topic: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark  (Read 18123 times)

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #100 on: December 16, 2024, 10:45:54 am »
I'm no lawyer, but I believe that under UK consumer protection law, Tom Evans would have been obligated to repair the amplifier for free, irrespective of the warranty, given the extortionate price of the product.

Assuming that letter is genuine, he comes across as a petulant child who's been caught with their pants down.

I question the legality of selling such a 💩 for that price. An arguement could me made that it's fraud.

Price has no bearing on warranty cover.
It's only fraud if it claims to be something it isn't - a £25k preamp is still a preamp - it's up to the customer to decide if it's worth the price to them.
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Offline magic

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #101 on: December 16, 2024, 10:59:46 am »
That's news to me too, although I reserve some skepticism and refuse to automatically reject the possibility of such nonsense actually being real - it's government after all :D
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #102 on: December 16, 2024, 12:49:48 pm »
Price has no bearing on warranty cover.
The manufacture warranty doesn't affect your statutory rights. Even if it has expired, then you're still protected by the law, which mentions price and durability. In other words, one should expect a £25 000 a pre-amp to last a heck of a lot longer than a £25 pre-amp.

Quote from: Consumer Rights Act 2015, Section 9
(2) The quality of goods is satisfactory if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would consider satisfactory, taking account of—

    (a) any description of the goods,

    (b) the price or other consideration for the goods (if relevant), and

    (c) all the other relevant circumstances (see subsection (5)).

(3) The quality of goods includes their state and condition; and the following aspects (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods—

    (a) fitness for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are usually supplied;

    (b) appearance and finish;

    (c) freedom from minor defects;

    (d) safety;

    (e) durability.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/9

Quote
It's only fraud if it claims to be something it isn't - a £25k preamp is still a preamp - it's up to the customer to decide if it's worth the price to them.

I don't know about what claims were made, hence why chose my language carefully, so as not to make any false accusations.

I question the legality of selling such a 💩 for that price. An arguement could me made that it's fraud.

I think it's a fair question to ask, given the build quality vs price.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2024, 04:43:21 pm by Zero999 »
 

Offline Xena E

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #103 on: December 16, 2024, 04:08:15 pm »

I question the legality of selling such a 💩 for that price. An arguement could me made that it's fraud.


Undoubtedly it is a very poorly constructed item, but the principles of its design, at least from the point of view of the signal path and the noise reduction techniques are valid, the overly complex power supply I doubt its value. But I'm not an audiophile: I like to listen to the music, not the equipment.

I really wonder how much, technically better it is than the 1960's Mullard designed preamplifier/equaliser that is in my turntable, that has I think, just four BC109s in the signal path...very little I'd guess.

I can tell the difference between 10% THD+ N and 1%, but buggered if I can tell the difference between 1% and 0.1%...

As for price, nobody is being forced to buy it in the first place, but yes I'd say a lifetime guarantee for the original purchaser would be perfectly reasonable minimum for the unit... and would have gained Evans some kudos and positive customer satisfaction that would have reinforced his reputation, not destroyed it.

X
 

Offline Coordonnée_chromatique

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #104 on: December 16, 2024, 04:58:38 pm »

I question the legality of selling such a 💩 for that price. An arguement could me made that it's fraud.


I like to listen to the music, not the equipment.

You think like an engineer, but you write like an ....phile, you are factually hearing your equipment and it affects drastically the reproduced music.
 

Offline andy3055

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #105 on: December 16, 2024, 05:42:37 pm »
"I really wonder how much, technically better it is than the 1960's Mullard designed preamplifier/equaliser that is in my turntable, that has I think, just four BC109s in the signal path...very little I'd guess..."

There is a vast improvement in components from that time to the present which contribute to the sound quality and signal to noice ratio etc. That is not a factor in this case anyway because it applies to even the cheap but modern gear made by anyone. It is entirely up to the designer of the circuitry to make it happen using "primier" parts. Even then, how much is it going to cost to make those few boards given the low priced but good components anyone can aquire at present?
If there are suckers to buy at those prices because they have nothing better to do with their money, well then, make hay while the Sun shines.
It is said that the cell phones are more powerful than the computers used by NASA during the Appolo program. So, let him make a black box with a cell phone inside and sell it to NASA for a few millions! Will NASA go for it?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2024, 06:11:21 pm by andy3055 »
 

Offline coppice

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #106 on: December 16, 2024, 05:59:08 pm »
I really wonder how much, technically better it is than the 1960's Mullard designed preamplifier/equaliser that is in my turntable, that has I think, just four BC109s in the signal path...very little I'd guess.
It may or may not be far better than your 1960s design, but that isn't really relevant. You can get a fantastic SNR these days, for very little money. That would stop hiss when the stylus is up, but does that matter when the SNR of a record is quite poor when the stylus is down? A simple late 60s moving magnet phono pre-amp had pretty much got to the point of being better than the records it reproduced combined with the best cartridges. Moving coil cartridges have a lower output, and it took a few more years before a simple pre-amp had sufficient SNR to not influence the output which playing a record. We are still only talking about the early 70s, though.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #107 on: December 16, 2024, 06:03:08 pm »
The physical construction is part of the design. Flimsy mechanical construction aside, the use of tantalum capacitors is a poor design choice. There are superior parts available there's no excuse not to use them, given the product's extortionate price.

The audio amplifier was solved many decades ago. Yes, there's always some room for improvement, but it's beyond the point of diminishing returns, as it's impossible to hear the difference between decent quality amplifiers.
 

Offline Xena E

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #108 on: December 16, 2024, 07:19:44 pm »
Yeah.

Things have been improved to the point of superlatives but anyone who say they can hear the difference between the very good and claimed perfection where they are listening through the surface noise of a vinyl record are talking absolute bollocks.

The basic principles of the Mastergroove can be implemented in a product that is both better made and better value.

People buying the mastergroove are just buying a dream. They are buying bragging rights to owning a rarity, If they had the slightest idea about how such equipment should be engineered and packaged,  they wouldn't buy that. Evans even built a transparent cased version,  plastic stand offs, tant ticks the lot, all on full show to the world, and it still sold!

You've got to admire the person who has the balls to pull that off.

X


« Last Edit: December 16, 2024, 07:30:25 pm by Xena E »
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #109 on: December 16, 2024, 07:25:48 pm »
That's news to me too, although I reserve some skepticism and refuse to automatically reject the possibility of such nonsense actually being real - it's government after all :D
Presumably you're commenting on my reply mentioning UK consumer law.

Why is it nonsense? If you buy something cheap, then you shouldn't expect it to last as something you've paid a lot of money for. It makes perfect sense the law takes this into account. A 1 year warranty (I don't know what the warranty on this item is, but that's often the default) on such an expensive product is just unreasonable.


I question the legality of selling such a 💩 for that price. An arguement could me made that it's fraud.


I like to listen to the music, not the equipment.

You think like an engineer, but you write like an ....phile, you are factually hearing your equipment and it affects drastically the reproduced music.
If the equipment is properly designed and is working properly (guitar amplifiers/effects boxes aside) then the equipment shouldn't drastically affect the reproduced music.
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #110 on: December 16, 2024, 07:55:31 pm »
Yeah.

Things have been improved to the point of superlatives but anyone who say they can hear the difference between the very good and claimed perfection where they are listening through the surface noise of a vinyl record are talking absolute bollocks.

The basic principles of the Mastergroove can be implemented in a product that is both better made and better value.

People buying the mastergroove are just buying a dream. They are buying bragging rights to owning a rarity, If they had the slightest idea about how such equipment should be engineered and packaged,  they wouldn't buy that. Evans even built a transparent cased version,  plastic stand offs, tant ticks the lot, all on full show to the world, and it still sold!

You've got to admire the person who has the balls to pull that off.

X
If you have never been to a high end audio show, where this kind of stuff is sold, try one. Its an interesting experience. There can be some amazing stuff at those places, but the amazing stuff is almost exclusively speakers. In 2024 fairly inexpensive electronics can drive those really nice speakers as well as anything. Take a look at the crazy amps. Massive things, at crazy prices, made of the cheapest materials. You might think they would use aluminium for something expensive, but no. You need to observe the behaviour of the attendees when the vendor opens up one of these things to show the interior. They are impressed by the kilo. The heavier the equipment is, the more impressed they are. So a vendor struggling to lift a thick steel lid off an amp gets a wow from the audience that an aluminium lid would not.
 

Offline Stringwinder

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #111 on: December 16, 2024, 08:12:11 pm »
I have never seen a design that totally misses the "do's & don'ts" to get mechanical
reliability like this one does. Instead it could be used as an example of how not to build
electronics. If you pay ridiculous amounts of money you could also expect things to
arrive in good working order. This amplifier has flaws with a very weak design combined
with structures that encourage resonances and resulting high forces exactly at its weakest
points (not to mention the choise of the materials used).

I have experience from vibration testing of many types of products from simple consumer
electronics up to actual "rocket science" (a few G up to ~3000 G). Putting boards on
thin plastic stilts is ridiculous. A simple low G-level sine sweep (sideways) will make
it fall/fail like a card-house when the stilts break.
 

Offline Coordonnée_chromatique

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #112 on: December 16, 2024, 08:13:17 pm »
Immaging few milliseconds that a pair of JBL K2 S9800 sound not different than a pair of cheap loudspeakers is simply amazing stupid... because both are well designed.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #113 on: December 16, 2024, 09:10:56 pm »
Immaging few milliseconds that a pair of JBL K2 S9800 sound not different than a pair of cheap loudspeakers is simply amazing stupid... because both are well designed.
You're now going off topic and shifting the goal posts. This thread is about amplifiers, not speakers. :palm:

Speakers do affect the sound quality, much more than any amplifier, but there's no need to spend silly money. Room acoustics are also important, even more so than decent speakers. If your room echos, then it can create distortion, as the reflected sound interferes with that produced by the speakers and it'll sound bad, irrespective of how much money you've wasted on them.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2024, 09:15:58 pm by Zero999 »
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #114 on: December 16, 2024, 10:05:30 pm »
Immaging few milliseconds that a pair of JBL K2 S9800 sound not different than a pair of cheap loudspeakers is simply amazing stupid... because both are well designed.
You're now going off topic and shifting the goal posts. This thread is about amplifiers, not speakers. :palm:

Speakers do affect the sound quality, much more than any amplifier, but there's no need to spend silly money. Room acoustics are also important, even more so than decent speakers. If your room echos, then it can create distortion, as the reflected sound interferes with that produced by the speakers and it'll sound bad, irrespective of how much money you've wasted on them.
These were silly money, but if you ever heard them you might realise silly money can buy you something interesting in speakers. http://www.infinity-classics.de/models/IRS-series+Beta+Gamma-Delta-Sigma-Epsilon-1988-95-98/IRS/IRS2.jpg
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #115 on: December 16, 2024, 10:46:19 pm »
I'm no lawyer, but I believe that under UK consumer protection law, Tom Evans would have been obligated to repair the amplifier for free, irrespective of the warranty, given the extortionate price of the product.

Assuming that letter is genuine, he comes across as a petulant child who's been caught with their pants down.

I question the legality of selling such a 💩 for that price. An arguement could me made that it's fraud.

Price has no bearing on warranty cover.
It's only fraud if it claims to be something it isn't - a £25k preamp is still a preamp - it's up to the customer to decide if it's worth the price to them.

When it comes to consumer law, price is a component of it. Warranty and legislative guarantees are two different things.

It comes down to whether a product is "reasonably durable". If you spend $25k on a piece of fairly basic audio equipment, a reasonable person would expect it to last quite a number of years (I'd suggest 10+ years). If it were a $25 product, a year might be more reasonable.

That being said, these types of audiophool products go against the "you get what you pay for" notion. Whilst they might work, at those kinds of prices, it's starting to be more of a scam than anything else.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2024, 10:48:45 pm by Halcyon »
 

Offline magic

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #116 on: December 16, 2024, 11:02:19 pm »
That being said, these types of audiophool products go against the "you get what you pay for" notion. Whilst they might work, at those kinds of prices, it's starting to be more of a scam than anything else.
They don't. You pay for a feeling that you own something unique and better than the rest, and no one can take that from you until some asshole publishes a teardown on YouTube.
Delete it, damnit!
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #117 on: December 16, 2024, 11:47:27 pm »
I have never seen a design that totally misses the "do's & don'ts" to get mechanical
reliability like this one does. Instead it could be used as an example of how not to build
electronics. If you pay ridiculous amounts of money you could also expect things to
arrive in good working order. This amplifier has flaws with a very weak design combined
with structures that encourage resonances and resulting high forces exactly at its weakest
points (not to mention the choise of the materials used).

I have experience from vibration testing of many types of products from simple consumer
electronics up to actual "rocket science" (a few G up to ~3000 G). Putting boards on
thin plastic stilts is ridiculous. A simple low G-level sine sweep (sideways) will make
it fall/fail like a card-house when the stilts break.

Well the designer doesn't buy your argument, and goes all in by cantilevering heavy components on thin plastic stilts.    Probably has some mumbo jumbo about lowering mechanical resonances a decade or more below audible frequencies thus eliminating acousto-magnetic coupling for an exceptionally deep sound with fine clear defined edges on mid-frquencies.
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #118 on: December 16, 2024, 11:55:46 pm »
This audiophile pre-amp design / construction is more inline with its price being 1/5th the other one:
(And guess what, this manufacturer did not send MIM a copyright take-down notice...)



 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #119 on: December 17, 2024, 01:14:00 am »
That's news to me too, although I reserve some skepticism and refuse to automatically reject the possibility of such nonsense actually being real - it's government after all :D
Presumably you're commenting on my reply mentioning UK consumer law.

Why is it nonsense? If you buy something cheap, then you shouldn't expect it to last as something you've paid a lot of money for. It makes perfect sense the law takes this into account. A 1 year warranty (I don't know what the warranty on this item is, but that's often the default) on such an expensive product is just unreasonable.
Zero999, I understand this is the law of the land, but that is the kind of B.S. law that leaves to interpretation something that should be clearly stated in a warranty card or any other terms and conditions of the sale. The way it is, any disputes will require the intervention of the justice system, which is discouraging ($$$) for a great deal of cases.

If there is a clear warranty statement on the product or in the pre-sales material, it should left to the buyer the decison to pay so much for such puny warranty.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline Xena E

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #120 on: December 17, 2024, 01:18:36 am »

If you have never been to a high end audio show...

No need. Ive spoken to Russ Andrews on a dare several years ago.

The challenge was to speak to him for ten minutes without my swearing at him, (I have a form of tourettes syndrome, I'm not just a potty mouth).

Got a lifetimes supply of audiophool bullshit there.

Guy actually told me that he occasionaly went to live music performances to, and I quote here:

"Recalibrate  my ears."

 :-DD  |O

https://www.russandrews.com/

To be fair to Russ Andrews, I will say that unlike the subject of the thread, Russ Andrews Accessories give a money back guarantee on all their products and I believe 25 year guarantee...
The gear is also well made...

Would I buy any of it?

Hell no!

X
 

Online themadhippy

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #121 on: December 17, 2024, 01:21:31 am »
Quote
Ive spoken to Russ Andrews
so have i,all be it for about 30 seconds before he ran off and hid >:D
 

Offline Xena E

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #122 on: December 17, 2024, 02:03:44 am »
Quote
Ive spoken to Russ Andrews
so have i,all be it for about 30 seconds before he ran off and hid >:D

Bully!  :-DD
 

Offline coppice

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #123 on: December 17, 2024, 02:47:57 am »
If you have never been to a high end audio show...
No need. I've spoken to Russ Andrews on a dare several years ago.
That's the producer side. They seem to be a mix of bullshitters and true believers. Its the consumer side which is more interesting.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: £25,000 Audiophile Pre-Amp repair video by Mend It Mark
« Reply #124 on: December 17, 2024, 03:07:14 am »
Zero999, I understand this is the law of the land, but that is the kind of B.S. law that leaves to interpretation something that should be clearly stated in a warranty card or any other terms and conditions of the sale. The way it is, any disputes will require the intervention of the justice system, which is discouraging ($$$) for a great deal of cases.

The mere threat of someone exercising their rights will, in most cases, gain compliance with reasonable demands without the need for legal intervention.

Quote
If there is a clear warranty statement on the product or in the pre-sales material, it should left to the buyer the decison to pay so much for such puny warranty.

Real-world effect: The buyer will have no choice but to accept the bare minimum terms offered by the manufacturers, because they won't offer you anything they don't have to. Oh, but you can buy additional insurance which will have at least twenty ways to deny your claim for only another 15% of the purchase price!
 


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