The Imperium programming language - IPL

[Siwastaja]

I started this thread hoping that it would be an informal, friendly sharing of ideas,

 

Yet already one of your first replies, to the first helpful comments, from ataradov, one of the most helpful forum members who I have never seen fighting with anyone or discouraging any useful idea, was this:

Anyway, if you have nothing to contribute then of course, you can stop discussing this subject.

When combined with the initial premise:

I'm a very experienced software developer and very experienced with C

this didn't play well. Rinse and repeat - the rest is history.

The fact you can't deal with anyone here is quite revealing. Maybe take a good look in the mirror?

[tggzzz]

For the avoidance of doubt, while I did post the first quote (and stand by it), I did not post the other quotes. Hence my editing the thread name.

If anybody is interested in "thread archeology", they might find these posts relevant:

• an indication of other people's opinions: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/programming/a-new-hardware-oriented-programming-language/msg4661863/#msg4661863
• my response to the OP's willy waving: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/programming/a-new-hardware-oriented-programming-language/msg4660453/#msg4660453
• the OP's promise: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/programming/a-new-hardware-oriented-programming-language/msg4660582/#msg4660582

and the observant will note the OP has "repurposed" the thread, not that that matters too much.

I don't think anybody here has ever designed a grammar

Good lord, the arrogance. How the heck would you know?

I've been the subject of the OP's arrogance, ignorance and willy waving too. I didn't let I go unchallenged and the OP has avoided challenging my response.

I think some facts are in order here.

I started this thread hoping that it would be an informal, friendly sharing of ideas, experienced engineering minded people who had ideas and enthusiasm for the concept of a new programming language that could deliver things that C is poor or weak at, a language that could be designed from the outset with MCU related needs in mind too.

Because a programming language and compiler are not for the beginner, because they are rather large projects, broad in scope and depth, I explained that I was no novice and had in fact designed and built a functioning compiler for a large language and I'd written that compiler in C, I pointed readers at Github where that codebase is available to anyone to look at.

From the outset, from the very first response to my opening post, there was discouragement, disdain and contempt at the mere suggestion of doing this.

After me making just two posts (this and this) this was what people were posting:

But in that case don't make polls, start doing it.

and

Right now this has a vibe of "making your own high performance oscilloscope" threads from 10 years ago. Those went for pages and pages with people daydreaming about it and not actually doing anything.

Note how discussing ideas, soliciting opinions, gathering potential requirements and considering features is regarded by him as "not actually doing anything"! The thread, the attempt to discuss IS DOING SOMETHING.

That frankly, set the tone for the thread, put downs, insults, dismissal and character assassination, I was made to feel unwelcome after making just two posts; go and read those posts and reflect on what I say.

If I've insulted anyone, if I've posted bluntly sometimes then recognize it is a reaction to the rudeness and insults that started less than ONE HOUR after I started the thread.

If you think I'm wasting my time, if you think I'm an idiot, if you think there's no prospect of this ever going anywhere then fine, you have that right, but all I ask is you leave the thread, don't post insults and inflammatory comments and whine and complain, just go away, leave me in peace to discuss a subject I'm passionate about with the few people here who have been polite and considerate and helpful - please.

For the avoidance of doubt, while I did post the first quote (and stand by it), I did not post the other quotes. Hence my editing the thread name.

If anybody is interested in "thread archeology", they might find these posts relevant:

• an indication of other people's opinions: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/programming/a-new-hardware-oriented-programming-language/msg4661863/#msg4661863
• my response to the OP's willy waving: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/programming/a-new-hardware-oriented-programming-language/msg4660453/#msg4660453
• the OP's promise: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/programming/a-new-hardware-oriented-programming-language/msg4660582/#msg4660582

and the observant will note the OP has "repurposed" the thread, not that that matters too much.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I started this thread hoping that it would be an informal, friendly sharing of ideas,

Yet already one of your first replies, to the first helpful comments, from ataradov, one of the most helpful forum members who I have never seen fighting with anyone or discouraging any useful idea, was this:

Anyway, if you have nothing to contribute then of course, you can stop discussing this subject.

When combined with the initial premise:

I'm a very experienced software developer and very experienced with C

this didn't play well. Rinse and repeat - the rest is history.

The fact you can't deal with anyone here is quite revealing. Maybe take a good look in the mirror?

What you say is untrue, the facts prove it, it is another insinuation with slimy words like "one of your first replies, to the first helpful comments, from ataradov" a blatant mischaracterization of the truth.

Yes I did post that, but when? I'll tell you it was in my 14th post AFTER I'd been insulted with this in the 6th post.

Right now this has a vibe of "making your own high performance oscilloscope" threads from 10 years ago. Those went for pages and pages with people daydreaming about it and not actually doing anything.

That is not a "helpful comment" and you do not speak the truth.

[Siwastaja]

my 14th post

It is interesting that even posts made by others are "your posts".

But I totally get it. Your thread, your rules, other people are yours, too. YOU'RE FIRED IGNORED!!!1 and so on. 

And all ataradov did was to rectify the false ideas about the importance and mechanisms of NOP insertion. Completely helpful.

[tggzzz]

I started this thread hoping that it would be an informal, friendly sharing of ideas,

Yet already one of your first replies, to the first helpful comments, from ataradov, one of the most helpful forum members who I have never seen fighting with anyone or discouraging any useful idea, was this:

Anyway, if you have nothing to contribute then of course, you can stop discussing this subject.

When combined with the initial premise:

I'm a very experienced software developer and very experienced with C

this didn't play well. Rinse and repeat - the rest is history.

The fact you can't deal with anyone here is quite revealing. Maybe take a good look in the mirror?

What you say is untrue, the facts prove it, it is another insinuation with slimy words like "one of your first replies, to the first helpful comments, from ataradov" a blatant mischaracterization of the truth.

Yes I did post that, but when? I'll tell you it was in my 14th post AFTER I'd been insulted with this in the 6th post.

Right now this has a vibe of "making your own high performance oscilloscope" threads from 10 years ago. Those went for pages and pages with people daydreaming about it and not actually doing anything.

That is not a "helpful comment" and you do not speak the truth.

Sijwasta didn't make that comment about scopes; ataradov did. It would be better if you didn't mis-attribute statements.

Even if you dislike that part of the comment, after 1052(!) posts in this thread I don't think it was too far off the mark

[Sherlock Holmes]

Sijwasta didn't make that comment about scopes; ataradov did.

I never said otherwise.

It would be better if you didn't mis-attribute statements.

I didn't.

[Sherlock Holmes]

my 14th post

It is interesting that even posts made by others are "your posts".

But I totally get it. Your thread, your rules, other people are yours, too. YOU'RE FIRED IGNORED!!!1 and so on. 

And all ataradov did was to rectify the false ideas about the importance and mechanisms of NOP insertion. Completely helpful.

Yet despite your false claims I actually did make the 14th post Siwastaja here it is.

The insult that led to me to make the 14th post came before, in the 6th post (less than one hour after me starting the thread) here it is.

[Siwastaja]

Yet despite your false claims I actually did make the 14th post

Oh, but your claim was that it was your 14th post, which is only true under the premise that all posts in a thread started by you are "yours".

In actual real world where others do not belong to you, post #14 was your 6th post (including the opening), or your 5th reply.

Or then again, there is the possibility of, to quote Nominal Animal, me failing English.

I can totally feel the importance of this discussion!

[tggzzz]

my 14th post

It is interesting that even posts made by others are "your posts".

But I totally get it. Your thread, your rules, other people are yours, too. YOU'RE FIRED IGNORED!!!1 and so on. 

And all ataradov did was to rectify the false ideas about the importance and mechanisms of NOP insertion. Completely helpful.

Yet despite your false claims I actually did make the 14th post Siwastaja here it is.

The insult that led to me to make the 14th post came before, in the 6th post (less than one hour after me starting the thread) here it is.

Ataradov's post was a calm statement of his tentative opinion. You may not have liked his opinion, but that is a different issue.

You have a tendency, in this thread at least, of being too ready to interpret a statement of a differing opinion as being an insult. (Hint: that's an opinion, not an insult!)

[tggzzz]

Yet despite your false claims I actually did make the 14th post

Oh, but your claim was that it was your 14th post, which is only true under the premise that all posts in a thread started by you are "yours".

In actual real world where others do not belong to you, post #14 was your 6th post (including the opening), or your 5th reply.

Or then again, there is the possibility of, to quote Nominal Animal, me failing English.

Nah. It is yet another comprehension failure - but not on your part.

IMNSHO the OP would benefit from re-reading a post and his response before posting his response.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Yet despite your false claims I actually did make the 14th post

Oh, but your claim was that it was your 14th post, which is only true under the premise that all posts in a thread started by you are "yours".

In actual real world where others do not belong to you, post #14 was your 6th post (including the opening), or your 5th reply.

Or then again, there is the possibility of, to quote Nominal Animal, me failing English.

I can totally feel the importance of this discussion!

My sincere apologies, I mistakenly wrote "my 14th post" I meant "the 14th post". My 14th post was absolute post 29.

Just to be very clear then, the 6th post submitted less than an hour after the thread started was an insult, a disparaging remark directed at me. The 14th post was my response to that insult.

Those insults and disparaging and demeaning comments began at the 6th post and have continued unabated (with a small number of notable exceptions) for two months.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Nah. It is yet another comprehension failure - but not on your part.

I made a simple mistake and just apologized for it - but as usual, this is seen as an opportunity give me another kick in the face another insult "comprehension failure" and on and on it goes...

[Sherlock Holmes]

my 14th post

It is interesting that even posts made by others are "your posts".

But I totally get it. Your thread, your rules, other people are yours, too. YOU'RE FIRED IGNORED!!!1 and so on. 

And all ataradov did was to rectify the false ideas about the importance and mechanisms of NOP insertion. Completely helpful.

Yet despite your false claims I actually did make the 14th post Siwastaja here it is.

The insult that led to me to make the 14th post came before, in the 6th post (less than one hour after me starting the thread) here it is.

Ataradov's post was a calm statement of his tentative opinion. You may not have liked his opinion, but that is a different issue.

You have a tendency, in this thread at least, of being too ready to interpret a statement of a differing opinion as being an insult. (Hint: that's an opinion, not an insult!)

He said

This is plain stupid

and

don't make polls, start doing it and if you have something useful implemented, we can discuss.

and

Right now this has a vibe of "making your own high performance oscilloscope" threads from 10 years ago. Those went for pages and pages with people daydreaming about it and not actually doing anything.

I have no idea whether he was calm or not, I made no suggestion he was not calm. The post and its tone was an insult, here's the test would a reasonable professional person speak that way to a coworker in a team setting in front of others? in front of say a HR staff member?

I really shouldn't have to even explain this, its just so basic that I'm dumbfounded at your support for it.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Anyway, I'm done with off topic posts and insults, carry on if you must but it's not going to deter me from continuing these discussion with the few individuals that have earned my respect.

[Siwastaja]

Don't you see the difference in saying:

This [doing X] is stupid[, so don't waste your time doing it]
vs.
The person saying this is stupid
?

First is being helpful with no bad intentions, but just without sugar coating. This is discussing matters, not persons. I mean, someone like ataradov writes like that all the freaking time and I'm serious when I'm saying I don't remember it ever causing a misunderstanding before. You're the first I'm seeing having a problem with it, after many years hanging here.

Of course, after enough escalation and actual insults from your part, quite some many of us started really insulting you. You are free to actually ignore everybody as you said you'd do but failed to deliver. You are also free to stop reacting to every little comment you find nasty.

[magic]

I mean, someone like ataradov writes like that all the freaking time and I'm serious when I'm saying I don't remember it ever causing a misunderstanding before. You're the first I'm seeing having a problem with it, after many years hanging here.

Many were triggered but they weren't brave enough to speak up against this horrible abuse.

OP today is starting to sound like Elizabeth Holmes

[tggzzz]

my 14th post

It is interesting that even posts made by others are "your posts".

But I totally get it. Your thread, your rules, other people are yours, too. YOU'RE FIRED IGNORED!!!1 and so on. 

And all ataradov did was to rectify the false ideas about the importance and mechanisms of NOP insertion. Completely helpful.

Yet despite your false claims I actually did make the 14th post Siwastaja here it is.

The insult that led to me to make the 14th post came before, in the 6th post (less than one hour after me starting the thread) here it is.

Ataradov's post was a calm statement of his tentative opinion. You may not have liked his opinion, but that is a different issue.

You have a tendency, in this thread at least, of being too ready to interpret a statement of a differing opinion as being an insult. (Hint: that's an opinion, not an insult!)

He said

This is plain stupid

and

don't make polls, start doing it and if you have something useful implemented, we can discuss.

and

Right now this has a vibe of "making your own high performance oscilloscope" threads from 10 years ago. Those went for pages and pages with people daydreaming about it and not actually doing anything.

I have no idea whether he was calm or not, I made no suggestion he was not calm. The post and its tone was an insult, here's the test would a reasonable professional person speak that way to a coworker in a team setting in front of others? in front of say a HR staff member?

I really shouldn't have to even explain this, its just so basic that I'm dumbfounded at your support for it.

If that's what triggers you, then I am surprised you have survived in a corporate environment!

As someone another person on your ignore list observed...

Don't you see the difference in saying:
This [doing X] is stupid[, so don't waste your time doing it]
vs.
The person saying this is stupid
?

Many many of my statements have been called stupid, and I've called other people's statements stupid. In all cases the comments were right, and absolutely no offence was taken. There may of been to-and-fro establishing why the statements were stupid, but that's all part of coming up with new inventions.

As I taught my daughter (as far as I can see to her benefit), 99% of ideas turn out to be silly, but you need to be prepared to have them in order to discover the 1% that aren't.

[tggzzz]

Anyway, I'm done with off topic posts and insults, carry on if you must but it's not going to deter me from continuing these discussion with the few individuals that have earned my respect.

Are those people that haven't examined, questioned, and challenged your statements? If so, then that's merely an echo chamber or mutual-support group.

[brucehoult]

Giving five values:

Code: [Select]

raw(8), utf(8), raw(16), utf(16), utf(32) (being identical also raw(32) but we'd not bother to include that attribute).

So raw strings have every character represented by the same size unit, easy to index, iterate the strings and utf strings are encoded less wasted space but more costly to iterate and search. Simply assigning one to another would implicitly convert the string format too.

Lovely!

According to nextpcb.com, one of the most used microcontrollers in 2022 was the PIC 16F84, with 1024 instructions of ROM and 68 bytes of RAM.

It's going to love 5x duplicated string libraries.

Don't make any decisions ... just include every possible option! This is indeed the true spirit of PL/I and Algol68, not to mention the CPL.

Thank God for Martin Richards, Niklaus Wirth, and Dennis Ritchie is all I can say. Half a century on they still look more practical than their (would be) successors.