> > > The math becomes intractable. The sidebands are not symmetric about > > the carrier. > > > Jerry > > Really? �I thought the spectra would be symmetric as long as the > modulating waveform was real. �I haven't looked at a spectrum analyser in > years though. >Yes I was thinking about that too.. I thought the sidebands would always be symmetrical as long as we were talking about pure FM with no AM combined and the modulating waveform was symmetrical around 0. But what if the modulating wavform is f + 2f such that it's not symmetrical around 0 and the + deviation is not equal to the - deviation, then the sidebands might be asyymetrical.. I think I'm going to hook up a generator to the spectrum analyzer and see.

# Frequency Modulation Spectra

Started by ●December 19, 2008

Reply by ●December 20, 20082008-12-20

Reply by ●December 21, 20082008-12-21

On Dec 19, 4:29�pm, Vladimir Vassilevsky <antispam_bo...@hotmail.com> wrote:> It is much more complicated. AFAIK there is no closed form solution for > this case.Very true. The expression for the spectrum of the general FM signal is messy because of the need to take various special cases (e.g. narrowband FM versus wideband FM) into account. But some special cases can be obtained in "closed form". For example, if the modulator signal is x(t) = M_1 sin(2 pi f_1t) + M_2 sin(2 pi f_2 t) where |M_1| + |M_2| < 1 (so that |x(t)| < 1), then sin(2 pi f_c t - pi x(t)), a **phase-modulated** signal at carrier frequency f_c with a maximum phase deviation of plus/minus pi can be expressed as an unmodulated carrier signal (2/pi) sin(2pi f_c t) together with a sum of signals J_m(pi M_1)J_n(pi m_2)sin(2 pi [f_c - mf_1 - nf_2]t) at frequencies f_c - mf_1 - nf_2 where m and n range from -infinity to +infinity, and J_m, J_n denote ordinary Bessel functions of orders m and n respectively. Since frequency modulation is a special case of phase modulation, this result does give the spectrum of at least one FM signal. Which one is left as an exercise for the reader. As noted by many respondents in this discussion, there are tones separated by mf_1 from the carrier, by nf_2 from the carrier (harmonics of the modulating tones), and also by mf_1 + nf_2 (intermodulation products of the modulating tones). Additional matters worth mentioning are that (i) every multiple of the greatest common divisor of f_1 and f_2 can be expressed as mf_1 + nf_2, so that if f_c = 1 MHz, f_1 = 100 Hz and f_2 = 225 H_z, then there will be spectral lines every 25 Hz, (note that -2f_1 + f_2 = 25 Hz) and (ii) the amplitude of a tone at a particular frequency is the sum of a series of Bessel function products in general. This is because (in our example) 9f_1 - 4f_2 = 0 and so not only does -2f_1 + f_2 = 25 Hz, but 7f_1 -3f_2 = 25 Hz as well, and 16f_1 - 7f_2 = 25 Hz too, and so on. Nitpickers are welcome to think of the case when f_1 f_2 are incommensurate..... The result above generalizes to more than two tones. More details can be found in a paper available at (http://www.ifp.uiuc.edu/~sarwate/pubs/zsdvs.ps) (see especially Section 4 and Eqs (71) and (72). Surfers and downloaders are warned that the paper is primarily concerned with the frequency spectrum of PWM signals, and the phase modulation result is an incidental byproduct...) Hope this helps... --Dilip Sarwate

Reply by ●December 21, 20082008-12-21

dvsarwate@yahoo.com wrote:> On Dec 19, 4:29 pm, Vladimir Vassilevsky <antispam_bo...@hotmail.com> > wrote: > >> It is much more complicated. AFAIK there is no closed form solution for >> this case. > > Very true. The expression for the spectrum of the > general FM signal is messy because of the need > to take various special cases (e.g. narrowband FM > versus wideband FM) into account. But some special > cases can be obtained in "closed form". For example, > if the modulator signal is > > x(t) = M_1 sin(2 pi f_1t) + M_2 sin(2 pi f_2 t) > > where |M_1| + |M_2| < 1 (so that |x(t)| < 1), then > sin(2 pi f_c t - pi x(t)), a **phase-modulated** signal at > carrier frequency f_c with a maximum phase deviation > of plus/minus pi can be expressed as an unmodulated > carrier signal (2/pi) sin(2pi f_c t) together with a sum > of signals > > J_m(pi M_1)J_n(pi m_2)sin(2 pi [f_c - mf_1 - nf_2]t) > > at frequencies f_c - mf_1 - nf_2 where m and n range from > -infinity to +infinity, and J_m, J_n denote ordinary Bessel > functions of orders m and n respectively. Since frequency > modulation is a special case of phase modulation, this result > does give the spectrum of at least one FM signal. Which > one is left as an exercise for the reader.Is there a difference between phase-and frequency modulation? As far as I know, a differentiator in the modulator converts one to the other. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������

Reply by ●December 21, 20082008-12-21

Allan Herriman wrote:> Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote in > news:iE83l.65356$JU5.59230@newsfe20.iad: > >> Dr. Darth wrote: >>> I was referring to adding a baseband signal to the same modulator - >>> in other words, two modulating sinusoids into one modulator. >> The math becomes intractable. The sidebands are not symmetric about >> the carrier. >> >> Jerry > > Really? I thought the spectra would be symmetric as long as the > modulating waveform was real. I haven't looked at a spectrum analyser in > years though.I haven't gone through my old texts, but unless it has changed since the 1950s, yes, really.> To the OP: the maths is intractable in the general case, but we might be > able to make some simplifications if certain conditions apply. > > If the small angle approximation holds (i.e. the peak phase modulation is > much less than perhaps 0.1 radian), then we can regard the entire process > as linear and the spectra add just like in AM (or QAM). > > This is the same condition that allows us to use the approximation: > sin x = x = tan x > > This is called NBFM (narrow band FM). C.F. WBFM (wide band FM), in which > this assumption does not hold.Note that NBFM is essentially double-sideband AM with the carrier shifted 90 degree. Armstrong's early crystal-stabilized FM modulators used this. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������

Reply by ●December 21, 20082008-12-21

On Dec 20, 10:06�pm, "dvsarw...@yahoo.com" <dvsarw...@gmail.com> averred:>....... >....... > then > sin(2 pi f_c t - pi x(t)), a **phase-modulated** signal at > carrier frequency f_c �with a maximum phase deviation > of plus/minus pi can be expressed as an unmodulated > carrier signal (2/pi) sin(2pi f_c t) together with a sum > of signals > > J_m(pi M_1)J_n(pi M_2)sin(2 pi [f_c - mf_1 - nf_2]t) > > at frequencies f_c - mf_1 - nf_2 where m and n range from > -infinity to +infinity, and J_m, J_n denote ordinary Bessel > functions of orders m and n respectively. >�......The phrase beginning "an unmodulated carrier..." and ending ".... together with" should be deleted from this assertion. There *can* be a tone at the carrier frequency but it arises from terms such as J_0(pi M1)J_0(pi M_2)sin(2 pi f_c t) and J_m(pi M_1)J_n(pi M_2)sin(2 pi [f_c - mf_1 - nf_2]t) where mf_1 + nf_2 = 0, etc. --Dilip Sarwate

Reply by ●December 21, 20082008-12-21

On Dec 20, 9:57�pm, makol...@yahoo.com wrote:> > > The math becomes intractable. The sidebands are not symmetric about > > > the carrier. > > > > Jerry > > > Really? �I thought the spectra would be symmetric as long as the > > modulating waveform was real. �I haven't looked at a spectrum analyser in > > years though. > > Yes I was thinking about that too.. � I thought the sidebands would > always be symmetrical as long as we were talking about pure FM with no > AM combined �and the modulating waveform was symmetrical around 0. > But what if the modulating wavform is f + 2f such that it's not > symmetrical around 0 and the + deviation is not equal to the - > deviation, then the sidebands might be asyymetrical.. > > I think I'm going to hook �up a generator to the spectrum analyzer and > see.I did the experiment... with two tones, if the tones are unrelated and therefore the combined modulating waveform is symmetrical around zero, then the sidebands are symmetrical around the carrier. But for the speical case where the two tones are harmonically related, then the phase realtionship controls the symmetry of the modulating waveform around zero and also the symmetry of the sidebands around the carrier. Conclusion: a symmetrical modulating waveform yields symmetrical sidebands. Mark

Reply by ●December 21, 20082008-12-21

Please clarify "... the combined modulating waveform is symmetrical around zero ..." Symmetrical in what sense? Waveform amplitude above and below zero, where zero input voltage represents the nominal modulator carrier output frequency? I have in mind two audio generators summed at the modulator input capacitively coupled with zero DC offset. Would that be what you mean by symmetrical? <makolber@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:a7007bd3-f82c-420f-8465-3c8fcf04b20c@q26g2000prq.googlegroups.com... On Dec 20, 9:57 pm, makol...@yahoo.com wrote:> > > The math becomes intractable. The sidebands are not symmetric about > > > the carrier. > > > > Jerry > > > Really? I thought the spectra would be symmetric as long as the > > modulating waveform was real. I haven't looked at a spectrum analyser in > > years though. > > Yes I was thinking about that too.. I thought the sidebands would > always be symmetrical as long as we were talking about pure FM with no > AM combined and the modulating waveform was symmetrical around 0. > But what if the modulating wavform is f + 2f such that it's not > symmetrical around 0 and the + deviation is not equal to the - > deviation, then the sidebands might be asyymetrical.. > > I think I'm going to hook up a generator to the spectrum analyzer and > see.I did the experiment... with two tones, if the tones are unrelated and therefore the combined modulating waveform is symmetrical around zero, then the sidebands are symmetrical around the carrier. But for the speical case where the two tones are harmonically related, then the phase realtionship controls the symmetry of the modulating waveform around zero and also the symmetry of the sidebands around the carrier. Conclusion: a symmetrical modulating waveform yields symmetrical sidebands. Mark

Reply by ●December 22, 20082008-12-22

> Please clarify "... the combined modulating waveform is symmetrical around > zero ..." �Symmetrical in what sense? �Waveform amplitude above and below > zero, where zero input voltage represents the nominal modulator carrier > output frequency?Yes that is what I meant. Symmetrical above and below zero Volts where zero Volts into the modulator results in zero freq deviation from the nominal carrier frequency.> > I have in mind two audio generators summed at the modulator input > capacitively coupled with zero DC offset. �Would that be what you mean by > symmetrical? >In the typical case YES. But not just the AVERAGWE voltage above and below zero, but also the peak and the shape are symmetrical above and below zero Volts. This will be true for the combination of two typical unrelated sine tones. But... I also tested and spoke about a special pathological case where one generator frequency was set to exactly 2x the other generator frequency (I used 5 kHz and 10 kHz) so that we have F and 2F. Then I could vary the phase relationship between them. This results in a tone with a second harmonic which is NOT a symmetrical signal around zero volts. (If you AC couple, the average voltage above and below zero may (must) be the same, but not the peak. The waveform is asymmetrical in voltage.) In this special pathological case the sidebands also are not symmetrical and I could change the upper sideband re lower sideband by adjusting the phase between the two tones and that also effects the asymmetry of the voltage waveform. If you can, I strongly suggest connecting a generator to a spectum analyzer and playing. P.S. sorry for any spelling errors. Mark

Reply by ●December 22, 20082008-12-22

Very helpful. Thank you. I plan to do some tests here as you suggest. <makolber@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:2b2c1822-8fde-4d9c-88b6-3862034b53ec@y1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...> Please clarify "... the combined modulating waveform is symmetrical around > zero ..." Symmetrical in what sense? Waveform amplitude above and below > zero, where zero input voltage represents the nominal modulator carrier > output frequency?Yes that is what I meant. Symmetrical above and below zero Volts where zero Volts into the modulator results in zero freq deviation from the nominal carrier frequency.> > I have in mind two audio generators summed at the modulator input > capacitively coupled with zero DC offset. Would that be what you mean by > symmetrical? >In the typical case YES. But not just the AVERAGWE voltage above and below zero, but also the peak and the shape are symmetrical above and below zero Volts. This will be true for the combination of two typical unrelated sine tones. But... I also tested and spoke about a special pathological case where one generator frequency was set to exactly 2x the other generator frequency (I used 5 kHz and 10 kHz) so that we have F and 2F. Then I could vary the phase relationship between them. This results in a tone with a second harmonic which is NOT a symmetrical signal around zero volts. (If you AC couple, the average voltage above and below zero may (must) be the same, but not the peak. The waveform is asymmetrical in voltage.) In this special pathological case the sidebands also are not symmetrical and I could change the upper sideband re lower sideband by adjusting the phase between the two tones and that also effects the asymmetry of the voltage waveform. If you can, I strongly suggest connecting a generator to a spectum analyzer and playing. P.S. sorry for any spelling errors. Mark