Author Topic: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply  (Read 237213 times)

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Offline David Hess

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #500 on: February 05, 2018, 03:57:41 pm »
Since the ordinary transistors like the IRF510 can't solve the common problems of this RF power supply,then,can we go with an dedicated Rf Fet like this?

An RF power MOSFET could be used but they are expensive and at only 13.56MHz, not required.  Redesigning the circuit to use a more modern TO-220 part would be much easier and less expensive.
 

Offline SergeyMax

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #501 on: February 10, 2018, 07:12:39 am »
Since the ordinary transistors like the IRF510 can't solve the common problems of this RF power supply,then,can we go with an dedicated Rf Fet like this?
SD1902
RF fets usually have low Vds voltage, SD1902 has 65V only. It is too low for this application. I would recommend you to completely redesign output schematics to make two-stage output amplifier, as it was made in the original Metcal stations. They use such solution to avoid Vds overstress. For example, in the new MX5000 output transistor has 500V Vds! But of course it has very large input capacitance, so it can't be driven directly at 13,6 MHz by the tiny standard driver.
 
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Offline 3roomlab

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Re: DIY 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #502 on: February 19, 2018, 06:30:18 am »
i have some question about the RF drive
i tried to simulate the circuit, the wand load doesnt simulate properly. so im not sure how accurate this whole thing is.

but i see some interesting points about the simulation. like some have said, it seems really easy to kick up a high voltage enough to kill the NMOS (100v?). so i just did a llittle more fiddling. if i try to make the XFMR more "resonant" nearer to 13.65Mhz (higher inductance?), it appears to reduce the danger of a higher voltage at drain (reduce chance of killing MOSFET? but im not entirely sure, as coupling factor of K1 seem to play both good guy and bad guy)

the change in the resonant freq of the XFMR (LTSPICE - wise) is shifted from 70Mhz-ish to around 27Mhz-ish (2x of 13.56Mhz)

could anyone try to see/discuss if the simulation is likely telling the "right story"?

i also did a few more version after this, by trying to change the resonance of the filter stage, the 2nd question is, if the XFMR/filter stage can be made to resonate well, should we expect a higher output at the wand and a reduced power loss?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 06:54:03 am by 3roomlab »
spheres of influence, example linustechtips. can you feel the brainwashing? showing off equipment, etc. were you swayed and baited? with immense popularity (and social "titles"), they have the power to promote things their way.
 

Offline affinekinetic

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #503 on: March 19, 2018, 10:39:11 pm »
Mr.NavyBOFH,is also out from this project,he promised pcb gerber files ,but none yet.......     :--

The Google Drive folder‚ posted by NavyBOFH in reply #473, includes Gerber files.

Which Gerber files are you missing?
 
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Offline mamalala

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #504 on: March 31, 2018, 09:38:00 pm »
Yikes, i almost forgot about all this. Damn real life and work stuff always getting in the way of the fun things :)

Anyways, to (re-)clarify a few things:

- I'm not an RF engineer. It all was mostly trial-and-error, as well as simulations. So there sure is some room for improvement in that section.

- I never spent much time figuring out why the output FET dies sometimes for some people. It usually only happens when powering off  the system. However,  i found that not all IRF510's are the same. They vary between manufacturers.

- Yes, the RF stage isn't incredibly powerfull, using large Talon tips means slower heatup. However, it shouldn't be noticably slower than on a RFG-30 supply. At least it never was for me.

- The whole design was done to be as simple as possible, with mostly cheap off-the-shelf parts. Especially the driver chip is a big point that could be improved, i think. It just can't handle really large FET's. More powerful drivers usually have slower rise/fall times. I guess the only way to reliably get more power with a larger output FET would be to build a discrete driver stage instead of using a simple driver IC.

-  This thing was never meant to be a "final" version of anything. It was just meant to get things started, to get to a usable stage, so that other can jump in and improve on that. As said, i'm not a RF guy, so i'm sure that a lot can be improved there.

- Yes, the cores in the RF transfomer and filters are important. Different manufacturers seem to have wildly different real-world parameters, although the spec sheets suggest otherwise. At least that is what i observed back then.

- The IRF510 is pretty much at it's limit in this application. However, i think it would be somewhat trivial to increase the power with a little re-design of the circuit. Right now the primary side of the RF transformer is single ended, since there is only one FET driving it. One could make that a "real" transformer with a center-tapped primary instead, the center at the +24V supply. Then just use a second driver chip and IRF510, connected to the second leg of the primary, and drive it with an inverted signal. Unless i'm thinking wrong, that should increase the overall power output. This would also mean that the main supply voltage to the RF stage can be a bit lower, decreasing the stress on the FETs. The following output filtering stages (caps and inductors) probably need some beefing-up then as well to handle the increased power. Using proper RF litz wire may be useful as well, instead of solid core copper wire.

- Regarding the  RF transformer and filtering stages in general: Those were also mostly done by trial-and-error (again, because i'm not a RF guy). I tweaked things so that i got the most output power into a 50 ohms RF dummy load. That obviously does not mean that everything is tuned as good as it can. It's possible  that at some point there is a big mismatch and/or power loss, just covered up by having a better tuning at a different stage. I simply lack the tools required to make useful meassurements when it comes to RF power and matching.

Having said that, it's something that someone else has to pick up. As far as i am concerned, i got that initial experiment to work, that is, to come up with something that works and is usable, and that others can take as a starting point for further development. Sorry that i couldn't solve the issue with the output FET sometimes blowing up when switching the unit off hard. Since i only ever encountered that when powering it off by switching off the supply, and never had that issue when first doing a soft "power off" through the user interface, i would guess that this could be fixed in firmware (or hardware).

Take a small recitifier, hook it up to the AC input. Or "isolate" the DC by a big diode before it goes into the smoothing caps. The idea is to get a voltage that goes away as soon as the input voltage is powered off, and not being held up by the filtering caps. Feed that though a resistor+zener combination to give a +5V signal. Put that into a free pin on the microcontroller. Then all thats left is to just hack the firmware so that it disables the driver as soon as that signal goes away (or use some logic gate to combine that with the RF_EN signal). The basic idea being that RF_EN gets de-asserted as soon as the input supply voltage is turned off, even though the input filtering caps are still charged.

Oh, and i won't be making any new batches of boards. If anyone wants boards for the current design, they have to get to Seed, iTead, or similar, and have a batch made for themselves, and then hand out the excess boards to whoever wants some.

Greetings,

Chris
 
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Offline CM800

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #505 on: May 09, 2018, 11:41:48 am »
Im selling my old Metcal Diy Pcb's board if you are interested ,then please write me in private :)
Thanks you very much.

Are you still continuing this project or has this been abandoned now?

I'm really interested in seeing where this project could go.
 

Offline prusony

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #506 on: May 16, 2018, 05:34:18 pm »
Huge thanks to Christian for project!! HUGE!!
I bought PCB and started to do.
Thanks again from Belarus. )
 
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Offline prusony

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #507 on: May 17, 2018, 08:58:43 pm »
Huge thanks to Christian for project!! HUGE!!
I bought PCB and started to do.
Thanks again from Belarus. )
Привет JustNote
Привет! HI , Ciao ! )
 

Offline zmetzing

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #508 on: January 03, 2019, 05:20:51 pm »
This is what I have come up with so far: I have zipped each functional section into its own ZIP. One is the RF board, which seems to be the latest as of June 2013. The BOM is from zoltan and seems to be what Chris references as the "best list" available.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9MnfIuHNf_lNFlZaEwzbXdwOGc

Are these still the definitive latest sources for this project?

Thanks!
 


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