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Electronics => Projects, Designs, and Technical Stuff => Topic started by: SArepairman on April 06, 2014, 05:19:58 am

Title: 1/f noise of PWM -> RC filter *thought experiment not really practical*
Post by: SArepairman on April 06, 2014, 05:19:58 am
I was wondering what the 1/f noise will look like for a PWM signal that is sent through a RC filter.

Does the 1/f noise of the resistor dominate the circuit? Does the capacitor cause anything?

how about a really big LC filter?
Title: Re: 1/f noise of PWM -> RC filter
Post by: SArepairman on April 06, 2014, 06:35:47 pm
I ask this because I need a null voltage circuit, I have a PWM output that I don't need... I was wondering if I used a big transformer and a capacitor could I get a nice "nuller"
Title: Re: 1/f noise of PWM -> RC filter
Post by: T3sl4co1l on April 06, 2014, 08:04:37 pm
Nulling what, just a low bandwidth (a few Hz) DC signal to read off a galvanometer?

I'd be way more concerned about the supply stability (your PWM digital output buffer is being used as a 1-bit DAC) and switching speed (and stability) than 1/f noise from a resistor.  Which, if this is for nulling...will carry zero DC current anyway, so what's the 1/f noise coming from?

If this is more about, like, nulling on a scope, then you'll probably want more attenuation than just a few stages of RC or LC filtering can provide.  Just to get the ripple down, nothing to do with noise.

Noise is more of a microvolts thing, what are you doing that you need that kind of precision?  Is there a better way to do it?  If it's that precise, it's probably best done in analog in the first place, leave the MCU out of it.  Is that an option?

Tim
Title: Re: 1/f noise of PWM -> RC filter
Post by: SArepairman on April 06, 2014, 08:33:09 pm
well im 99.9% likely to implement this using a DAC, I am just wondering what the filtered signal would look like on a FFT in a DSA.

its not a practical solution considering that highly stable dacs are available.



its just difficult to imagine for me what it would look like.

I imagine that a LC filter changing would just cause the ripple voltage to drift ( as when the cut off frequency changes the attenuation @ ripple frequency will change by some miniscule amount).,.
but what about 1/f?

like, if you took the output signal of the RC/LC filter and put it into a 1Hz cutoff preamplifier filter connected to a digital signal analyzer and nulled out the error from the amplifier to get accurate 1/f information about the DUT.
Title: Re: 1/f noise of PWM -> RC filter *thought experiment not really practical*
Post by: GK on April 07, 2014, 02:08:11 am
I was wondering what the 1/f noise will look like for a PWM signal that is sent through a RC filter.

Does the 1/f noise of the resistor dominate the circuit? Does the capacitor cause anything?

how about a really big LC filter?


I couldn't imagine the thermal noise voltage of the resistor being anywhere near the amplitude of the raw PWM, let alone any flicker (1/f) noise that the resistor may have.