Author Topic: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design  (Read 185484 times)

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Offline blackdog

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #175 on: March 26, 2018, 05:39:07 pm »
Hi All,

I would like to have an indication of the condition of the battery.
There are various ways to do this and the most used is an extra dpdt switch so that the meter can also measure the battery voltage.

I wanted to do it differently, so I have an indication that the ESR meter is on and that just before the battery is completely empty the extra power LED goes out.
But watch out!!! if you applied this in your version, then it is not a 5 transistor ESR meter anymore :-)

Take a look at the picture below, this battery level indicator only works with a low dropout regulator like the TS2950-50 i'am using!
My TS2950-50 stops regulating if the input voltage comes below 360mv dropout voltage, that is 200mV lower than the threshold voltage of the transistor BE voltage.
It is possible to to make the indication more soft, if you place a 47K over the base emittor of Q6, the LED wil be of at 6.2V and almost full on at 7V.
Whitout the extra resistor the LED wil be off at 5.5V and full on at 6V.


I hope you find this a nice addition to this ESR meter.

Kind regards,
Bram


« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 05:40:45 pm by blackdog »
“Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe.”
 
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Offline blackdog

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #176 on: March 28, 2018, 04:02:57 pm »
Hi!

I have done some more steps to finish this ESR meter.
Yesterday I received some material and there was also the regulator of the type: LM2859-50.
This is, I think, better known to you than the TS2950-50 and i tested is and it works fine.

This wil be the box i will use, look at the meter, something is broken....



I also had some of these smaller meters, but I thought it was less fun.



It was a bit difficult to open the meter, it seemed that the meter cap was also glued.



I used the meter scale of Jay_Diddy_B and at printing I adjusted the size for my meter.
Here you can see i'am measuring a 100uF capacitor, the blue version.



The picture below shows my two "hacks", at the top of the extra transistor that controls the battery LED.
And a coax connection via a 47 Ohm resistor...
Why? look at the pictures below this one.



With this simple addition, if you connect a scoop via a 47 resistor you can get an impression of the induction of your connected component.
In the case of a capacitor, this is indicated as ESL.
It is also instructive to see what happens when you test a capacitor with long connecting wires, you will see a lot of overshoot on the edges.

Some measurements, both capacitors are 100uF and 16V.
One is a rubicon ZLM series en the other ... not shure.
First the reference, a 1 Ohm resistor with the shortest possible connection wires.
This gives a nice block of signal without abberations.


And now for the measurement of only the blue capacitor with 8mm long connecting wires.



This is the measurement of the Rubicon capacitor with 8mm long connecting wires.
It is visible that the ESR is smaller with this capacitor, but also that there is still quite a bit of induction present because of the relatively long wires.



What is extra handy of this hack is that you have an opportunity to see if two capacitors do not resonate in parallel.
Blue capacitor and 0.47uF Cer.



And now the Rubicon and the 0.47uF Cer, there is a problem... not a good match!



And this is a picture of the rubicon connected with the smales posible wires.


And this is the measurement of this setup



Laters more, time is up!

Kind regards,
Bram
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 07:17:55 pm by blackdog »
“Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe.”
 

Offline h2oo

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #177 on: May 01, 2018, 02:59:41 pm »
If I don't have an analog Meter, how do I grade the value measured over a 20k resistor (which replaces the meter in my case)?

or how did the scale of the ESR label overlay has been defined?


 

Offline hugo

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #178 on: May 01, 2018, 11:12:34 pm »
Quote
how did the scale of the ESR label overlay has been defined?

It's right here on the first page:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/5-transistor-esr-meter-design/msg172108/#msg172108   ;)

 

Offline m3vuv

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #179 on: August 03, 2018, 10:44:59 am »
are the 2.2uf caps critical values in this?,im having a job finding them local,would 3.3uf be ok?,cheers Paul m3vuv.
 

Online Jay_Diddy_B

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #180 on: August 03, 2018, 05:55:49 pm »
are the 2.2uf caps critical values in this?,im having a job finding them local,would 3.3uf be ok?,cheers Paul m3vuv.

The 2.2uF is not critical, you can use any value up to 47uF. I used ceramic, but other people have built the circuit with electrolytic capacitors.

Good luck with the project!

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
 

Offline m3vuv

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #181 on: August 03, 2018, 07:48:51 pm »
cool,thanks for that.
 

Offline m3vuv

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #182 on: August 12, 2018, 09:32:09 am »
hi,i just built this using the mirrored image for the pcb traces and the un mirrored silkscreen on the top of the board,looks like the transistor pinouts are inverted,am i going mad?,cheers m3vuv.
 

Offline m3vuv

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #183 on: August 12, 2018, 02:23:15 pm »
gave up on the pcb idea,building it on veroboard now,im checking each stage as i go,the oscillator is running at 61.3khz measured with my freq counter,does that sound ok,i thought it was supposed to be 100khz?,cheers Paul m3vuv.73
 

Online Jay_Diddy_B

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #184 on: August 14, 2018, 12:24:40 pm »
gave up on the pcb idea,building it on veroboard now,im checking each stage as i go,the oscillator is running at 61.3khz measured with my freq counter,does that sound ok,i thought it was supposed to be 100khz?,cheers Paul m3vuv.73

Paul and the group,

I would start by checking the value of C1, the 1.5nF capacitor in the oscillator. It could have a high tolerance.

W2AEW did a video on this circuit. You can find it here:



Here is a screen shot from the video:



If you look the oscillation is about 5.3 div at 2us/div so 10.6us = 94 kHz

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
 

Online Jay_Diddy_B

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #185 on: August 14, 2018, 12:31:57 pm »
i must say these cap ESR sense things are one of the most interesting LTspice thingy to play in LTspice. I have tried (in LTspice) a few types of oscillators, versions of pulsing the drive current, input protection for surge and a supply voltage like a single 3.6v cell.

Snip ...


Can you post (attach) the LTspice Files (.asc) the .GIF files are hard to read.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
 

Offline m3vuv

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #186 on: August 15, 2018, 06:38:25 pm »
hi mauroh,is there any way you can post the thru hole pfd toner transfer and the coresponding silkscreen?,ive etched the board from the mirrored pdf and etched it but no way does the silkscreen marry up to it,sort of mirrored ,can you post a matching set but say whats ready to print,ie no mirroring and whats not,cheers Paul m3vuv.
 

Offline m3vuv

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #187 on: August 16, 2018, 05:08:39 pm »
just a heads up,i spent ages building the thru hole version as posted on page 5,if you trace out the tracks from Q4 you will see the base and emitter pinouts are wrong,the base and collector are inverted,the silkscreen is wrong for the type of transistor used!!,regards Paul m3vuv .
 

Online Jay_Diddy_B

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #188 on: August 17, 2018, 02:12:07 am »
just a heads up,i spent ages building the thru hole version as posted on page 5,if you trace out the tracks from Q4 you will see the base and emitter pinouts are wrong,the base and collector are inverted,the silkscreen is wrong for the type of transistor used!!,regards Paul m3vuv .

Paul,

I am not too sure what you mean. Here is the artwork:




This follows the convention that boards are drawn with the component side on top, even if it is a single-sided board.

And here is a picture of the assembled (working) board:



And here is a picture from the 2N3904 datasheet:



It looks right to me.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 02:15:00 am by Jay_Diddy_B »
 

Offline m3vuv

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #189 on: August 17, 2018, 09:12:18 am »
its the board that Mauro did in talking about on page 5 ,check out Q4 and how it is on the silkscreen,unfortunatly your artwork is no good to me as i need to toner transfer it so needs to be black and white also the component markings will screw things up,regards paul.
 

Offline mikerj

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #190 on: August 17, 2018, 09:32:39 am »
There is a toner transfer PDF version of Jay's board attached to his original post.
 

Offline mauroh

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #191 on: August 17, 2018, 05:55:09 pm »
Hi Paul, I've verified the files I posted and I can't find any issue.
Q4 looks fine to me with emitter, base and collector in the same position as in the original Jay_Diddy_B design.

Edit: "My design" is actually the original Jay_Diddy_B design, I just slightly modified a R.Hirst Eagle PCB to make it more veroboard friendly with all the holes on a 100mils grid and toner transfer friendly with all the traces enlarged.

Also the silkscreen match with the PCB.
I tried to overlay the mirrored image to be use for the toner transfer method with the silkscreen and everything seems to be aligned.
Can you please tell me which transistors have you used?
What exactly is not matching up?

Mauro
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 07:56:55 pm by mauroh »
 

Offline battlecoder

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #192 on: August 18, 2018, 09:27:09 pm »
This is a really smart design, thanks for sharing, Jay_Diddy_B.
I have one of those Transistor testers that can measure ESR, but I was looking into getting a dedicated device for that task alone, so I think I'll be building this one.
I'll need to get the 50uA analog meter first, but once I do that I'll post my pictures here.
 

Offline m3vuv

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #193 on: September 05, 2018, 09:47:28 am »
well ive etched a board from the design on page 5,ive printed the toner pdf as is without mirroring,the silkscreen pdf doesent match up unless i mirror it,then its all inverted,is there a set of both pcb artwork ie to etch and silkscreen ready to go as is without mirroring,p.s ive got self adhesive photo paper for the silkscreen,this is driving me nuts!,has it actualy been build with the files provided and tested?,cheers m3vuv.
 

Offline mauroh

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #194 on: September 05, 2018, 10:58:34 am »
Hi Paul, I think I've got your issue now...
As always, depending on witch proccess you are using i.e. P&P, photo-etching, veroboard, you should check If you need to mirror or not the image provided.

In your case, you should have used the not mirrored file provided here for the copper side:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/5-transistor-esr-meter-design/msg1456176/#msg1456176

Since you already etched the board mirrored, you could just mount all the components on the copper side, bending the center pin of the transistors in the opposite direction and mounting the voltage regulator facing down.
The only component you will not be able to fit will be the power connector, but you can just use the wires of the 9V battery clip.

Please let me know if this will work for you.

I mounted mine on a piece of veroboard and giftged to a friend...

Mauro

Offline m3vuv

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #195 on: September 05, 2018, 01:24:24 pm »
i etched the board with the pcb tonner pdf on page 5 and corresponding silkscreen pdf( as p diddy said the pcb etch was mirrored and ready to print i printed and etched it without mirroring it,ive tried all ways none seems to match!,cheers m3vuv. ps . didnt mirror the silkscreen just printed it and stuck it on the pcb as is,something is wrong im sure.
 

Offline mauroh

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #196 on: September 05, 2018, 02:55:55 pm »
Can you please post a picture of your board?

As I wrote, to save the already etched board you can forget abou the silkscren and since there are no components with more than 3 pins you can easily mount all the components on the copper side, or bend the pins of the transistors and mount the voltage regulator facing down.

You don't like this solution?

Mauro

Offline m3vuv

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #197 on: September 05, 2018, 11:26:06 pm »
i think ive sorted it,ive used the unmirrored pcb track layout with the un mirrored silkscreen,im just waiting for the board to etch,ill keep you posted cheers,m3vuv 73
 
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Offline karchiba

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #198 on: October 22, 2018, 11:29:35 pm »
Good afternoon all,

I have built Jay_Diddy_B's original circuit, on a perf-board, and it seems to be measuring very well with test resistors and known capacitors.

I do have one issue that I'm trying to understand...

When the DUT terminals are left disconnected, there is ~10uA of idle current going through the meter.
I assume it is my choice of diodes D1 and D2... I used 1N4003's, which have a reverse leakage current of 1.1uA, and a Forward Voltage of 0.63v.  I am assuming that these Diodes are used to dissipate voltage which may be contained in the DUT.

I have looked at the graph that the designer (THANK YOU Jay_Diddy_B, it's fantastic!) created, and it does seem that his numbers do show some idle current flowing through the meter.  I also looked at the video that W2AEW created, which was extremely helpful to understand how the circuit worked, and it did show some current without a DUT.

Any suggestions as to a better component choice for the diodes?
Could these be the source of the voltage difference off the bridge which could be showing as the 10uA that I'm measuring?   
Does this 10uA of idle current compare with other builders of this circuit?

Thank you all!  I really am enjoying this build.

_karchiba

 

Offline Mikeva

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Re: 5 Transistor ESR Meter Design
« Reply #199 on: November 22, 2018, 08:44:28 am »
Hi everybody,
I also trying to build this esr meter myself but something goes wrong.
Im using the Mauro's layout for the breadboard.All the components are the correct ones except the two 2.2 uf caps which i 've used electrolytics.
The thing is that i do get the right voltages up to Q3 but after the Q3 somethings goes wrong.
My meter says 1.9v on the Q4 collector and 1.4v on the collector of Q5.These ara way lower compare to the values that Jay Diddy posted.

Also in the R24 possition should i use 12k as you guys or should i use  this formula: 1800 ohm(50uAmeter) + 10k/2(pot) -7500ohms=700ohm?
If anyone can help it would be great!
 


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