Author Topic: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?  (Read 17390 times)

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Offline sentry7Topic starter

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Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« on: November 01, 2015, 03:31:16 pm »
Hey guys,

I use ExpressPCB for my board manufacturer, and the first board came to a total of about $93 for one board. The cost breakdown was:

$ 61.00   - Setup fee
$ 01.00   - Quantity : 1
$ 16.59   - Area : 23.7 in2
$ 14.05   - Shipping : (2nd day air)

Is this reasonable compared to the other options out there? The service and communication was great. The only downside is that they force you to use their PCB/SCH software, and you can't export to other file formats (such as gerber files).
 

Offline kripton2035

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2015, 03:43:22 pm »
this is around 12x12cm ? ok so the chinese people will do 10 pieces of 15x15cm boards for ... $60 if you can wait a month for shipping, or $76 if you want it in a week
but you get 5 boards for that price ...
http://pcbshopper.com/

try to make 10x10 cm boards, the prices are really cheaper if you can: $16 for 5 boards with shipping !
you need "standard" quality board thought, but for hobby it's always enought.
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2015, 03:43:48 pm »
$93 for one roughly 120mmx120mm board? Hell no that's not reasonable. And forcing you to use their software should put them right out anyway.

I strongly recommend Literally Anyone Else.
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Offline georges80

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2015, 04:23:16 pm »
I typically use http://www.custompcb.com/ for my 2 layer prototypes. They are quick (typically about 1 week), quite inexpensive and the finished quality is good. They have some limitations on minimum drill size, but not a big problem for protos. They also ALLOW you to put multiple designs onto one pcb/panel.

I would NEVER use a PCB house that requires anything other than industry standard gerber files.

cheers,
george.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2015, 06:38:48 pm »
I'm familiar with ExpressPCB. There is a huge catch22 with this service.

For a professional, the price could be reasonable. Shipping is fast. Ordering is easy. Don't even need to make Gerbers. Just click and done.

But a professional would not suffer the limited software. Can't do more than two layers. Can't alter paste layer. Can't make a bottom layer silkscreen. List goes on. ExpressPCB software is excellent for one thing. It is very easy to make simple boards with it, without making new device footprints or schematics. It has tools for simply designing the entire copper layer straight off the bat.

And a professional might need hundreds/thousands of boards after the prototype is tested. For higher quantity, the price just gets worse.

Designing a board in a closed software that can't make gerbers is just a waste of time, unless that software and manufacturing service are simply excellent. This is not the case with either.

So the only thing Express PCB is good for is a hobbyist with money to burn and who finds their software easy to use. For one-offs, 2 day shipping, and one click ordering, the price isn't super terrible. I'd continue to use them while learning a new pcb software, pronto. You may also want to learn how to make your own boards, using photoresist or toner transfer. The only easy alternative manufacturer is yourself. And of course you will continue to use their service in the interim. You don't have any other choice!

ExpressPCB is a useful concept. It's a little like PICAXE of the PCB design/manufacturing world. Super simple, but you pay a premium and will not find it terribly useful beyond proof of concept of simple designs.



« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 06:55:06 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline kolbep

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2015, 06:57:52 pm »
Try PCBshopper.com
Put in your specs, and you can have 5 boards from Smart-Prototyping in 5 Days for $124.25 US DOLLARS.
====================================
www.ShoutingElectronics.com Don't just talk about Electronics, SHOUT ABOUT IT! Electronics Blog Site and Youtube Channel
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2015, 07:12:07 pm »
Basically, IMHO, ExpressPCB is only good for a somewhat rich hobbyist who is not ambitious on going on and getting things done better way. It's expensive, very limited, and it's rather difficult to migrate to more sustainable workflows later because you have learned a whole CAD which is no good for any other manufacturer, and you need to throw the whole experience away and start over.

I understand their business idea and why people "fall" for that. PCB software usually are overly complex. Theirs is simple to use, and hits a certain audience. I love simple PCB CADs too.

Learn another CAD, export standard manufacturing files and use pcbshopper.com to compare prices. I have had very good experience from both Shenzen2u and Pcbway; either one almost always tends to be the cheapest one. Fabled "hobbyist-friendly" fabs such as Seeedstudio or OSHpark are often considerably more expensive and do not offer any real benefits AFAIK. Minus side for Shenzen2u and PCBway is that they use shady marketing tactics; OTOH, OSHpark has publicly shamed a customer for no reason and they apparently use sub-hobbyist level machinery, refusing to produce perfectly normal boards, so it's not always great with these "higher-profile" options either! Just use the cheapest.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 07:13:55 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline fivefish

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2015, 09:08:10 pm »
Quote
and you can't export to other file formats (such as gerber files).

Right there is a big deal breaker for me. No gerber means you're locked in to only using them for your designs. I didn't even bother to use ExpressPCB when I was starting out.

Plus... it's now 2015. PCB setup fees are so passé.  Lots of companies that are cheaper, without setup fees and reasonably fast too. (within 1 week, coming from China).

I just checked my last order with PCBWay, $80 for a 5.75" x 4.5" PCB, 25 pcs total. + shipping. I think shipping was $38, with tracking # via DHL. PCBs arrived within a week.

Quote
you can have 5 boards from Smart-Prototyping in 5 Days for $124.25 US DOLLARS.
For me, that's still expensive compared to what I can get from PCBWay.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 09:10:29 pm by fivefish »
 

Offline _dx

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2015, 09:17:47 pm »
http://dirtypcbs.com/
Have some experience with this guys. Best price, no problems with >200pcs. of  2layer 0.254/0.2mm PCB with 0.5mm Vias. Quality was really prefect!
 

Offline bson

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2015, 09:24:25 pm »
How many layers?  HASL/ENIG?  Premium-tier w/s specs?  Special needs?

I'm really cheap so mostly use dirtypcbs.com.  Actually, to be specific there is inherent value in getting a pile of 5x5cm HASL boards back for $14 even if it takes 3-4 weeks.  Though DHL doesn't add much if doing 2-3 boards in one order.  Cheap promotes all manner of experimentation and testing.  Curious about a new uC?  Make a small test board.  The low price allows treating boards as a consumable.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2015, 10:12:47 pm »
Way too much.

Try pcbway.com  or Goldenphoenixpcb

On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline JoeB83

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2015, 10:16:15 pm »
I'd personally recommend OSHPark. https://oshpark.com/

Great boards & even better customer service. Can upload gerbers or Eagle .brd files.
 

Offline philh

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2015, 10:51:06 pm »
Here you are price can't be beat and every option you want.
Regular Two sided 5cm x 5cm boards 10 pieces $9.90 highly recommended.
http://www.seeedstudio.com/service/index.php?r=pcb
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2015, 10:51:24 pm »
Just FYI, regarding sending an Eagle .brd file,  I have heard other people call this a feature, too. But unless the manufacturer is going to actually fix your mistakes and send the .brd file back to you, there's absolutely no reason to do this over sending Gerbers. It's a security risk for nothing.

If you can design a board in Eagle, outputting Gerbers to meet any manufacturer's specification is child's play. Another 20 minutes of fiddling on the 50 hours you spent learning the quirks of Eagle. That's like running a triple iron man and stopping 2 inches from the finish line! And without actually looking at everything that goes into the Gerber layers, anyway, you will eventually run into some issues/conflicts which are difficult to handle through laborious and time-sucking email or phone correspondence. Stuff that would have been obvious and easily corrected/conveyed in an absolute manner, if you had made the Gerbers.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 11:08:58 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline LukeW

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2015, 06:23:21 am »
As far as ExpressPCB is concerned, the first thing you have to do is learn to use some other standard Gerber-output CAD/CAM/EDA tool, because until you've done that, looking at other fabs is moot.
 

Offline Dielectric

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2015, 04:48:23 pm »
I typically use http://www.custompcb.com/ for my 2 layer prototypes. They are quick (typically about 1 week), quite inexpensive and the finished quality is good. They have some limitations on minimum drill size, but not a big problem for protos. They also ALLOW you to put multiple designs onto one pcb/panel.

cheers,
george.

I'll +1 CustomPCB / Silver Circuits.  I've been using them for years now, nice stuff cheap with a reasonable time period.  I get my boards in about 10 days, typically.  Great registration, nice clear silkscreens too.  OSHPark is fine, too.  I just placed my first order with Dirty because someone had some stuff I wanted linked up there.  I guess it's really cheap but I don't know if I've got the patience, ordered on Oct 11, shipped out in a couple of days but no tracking so who knows if/when I'll see the boards.  Hong Kong airmail, 1-8+ weeks.
 

Offline rea5245

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2015, 11:45:04 pm »
You should switch to a different PCB CAD software package. A little-known feature of PCBShopper is that it has a list of free CAD software. The list includes open source software and zero-cost, crippled versions of commercial packages. What makes this list different from others is that it tells you in what way the commercial packages have been limited (e.g. Eagle has size limits, DipTrace has pin limits, etc.). You can then decide which limits you're willing to live with.

And as others here have mentioned, once you have your PCB design ready, you can use PCBShopper's price comparison calculator to help find a manufacturer.

- Bob
 

Offline rs20

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2015, 11:56:16 pm »
If you can design a board in Eagle, outputting Gerbers to meet any manufacturer's specification is child's play. Another 20 minutes of fiddling on the 50 hours you spent learning the quirks of Eagle. That's like running a triple iron man and stopping 2 inches from the finish line! And without actually looking at everything that goes into the Gerber layers, anyway, you will eventually run into some issues/conflicts which are difficult to handle through laborious and time-sucking email or phone correspondence. Stuff that would have been obvious and easily corrected/conveyed in an absolute manner, if you had made the Gerbers.

This. I've found so many errors that are virtually invisible on in the CAD software, but are revealed by careful layer-by-layer inspection/sanity-checking of the final Gerbers.

I've even made little tweaks to Gerber files, even though that is terrible practice for obvious reasons.
 

Offline sentry7Topic starter

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2015, 01:14:02 am »
Thanks for all of the useful suggestions here guys. I'll be parsing through all of the good stuff here, but keep the suggestions coming.

I guess I should've saw it coming when I went in with this manufacturer. The bad part is that now, I have no way of moving the work I've already done to other CAD packages. The good news is that with the better software, it should be a breeze to redo the one board I've designed already. It could've been much worse.
 

Offline rs20

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2015, 01:17:13 am »
The bad part is that now, I have no way of moving the work I've already done to other CAD packages.

Heh, it's almost as if that is part of their business plan...
 

Offline sentry7Topic starter

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2015, 01:19:39 am »
The bad part is that now, I have no way of moving the work I've already done to other CAD packages.

Heh, it's almost as if that is part of their business plan...
I know...makes me wonder.  ::)
 

Offline fivefish

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2015, 10:09:37 am »
rs20, can you provide some examples of what kind of errors you're talking about?

ExpressPCB has the "walled garden" approach to customer retention. Locks you in.
All is dandy until you try to escape -- then you realize you've been screwed over.
 

Offline rs20

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2015, 10:32:44 am »
rs20, can you provide some examples of what kind of errors you're talking about?

Obviously design rules check catches the things that are certain to make the board fail, but I'm talking about unnecessarily iffy clearances, pour segments which are almost islands, tracks that don't quite reach the pad (so are technically connected but unnecessarily thin), and so on. Also, tented vs non tented vias, unwanted silkscreens, verifying that graphics on the solder mask layers have been interpreted correctly. As well as more aesthetic things. These things can be lost in the CAD package where you're seeing everything at once.

I also just genuinely enjoy looking at all the layers and how they correlate together.
 

Offline oodavid

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2015, 10:57:22 am »
I too need to start thinking about PCB printing. Do any of the suggested board houses do Pick n Place too?

The bad part is that now, I have no way of moving the work I've already done to other CAD packages. The good news is that with the better software, it should be a breeze to redo the one board I've designed already. It could've been much worse.

Will you make an exact replica or do you think the new board will end up different?
 

Offline rs20

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Re: Am I paying too much to have PCBs made?
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2015, 12:19:55 pm »
I too need to start thinking about PCB printing. Do any of the suggested board houses do Pick n Place too?

Are you getting hundreds or thousands of boards made? Watch Dave's video tour of a pick and place facility to understand why getting 10 or less boards pick-and-placed for you is unreasonable.
 


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