Author Topic: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?  (Read 4112 times)

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Offline kreyszigTopic starter

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Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« on: March 06, 2023, 07:08:07 pm »
Hi,

So if I want to decide on a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter for the input of an SMPS (to filter its input, but also to prevent noise from the SMPS to back feed into the source), what is a good approach? I have a hard time to wrap my head around this. Some assumptions can be made about the voltage of the source at rest, the inductance of the wires to the SMPS, the frequency of the SMPS, the current drawn from it (hence its average resistance). Where do we go from there?

For a single-stage low-pass filter I guess it is more straightforward, but for I have a harder time with a multi-stage one. For example, if the impedance of a second stage is large compared to the first stage, then the second stage can be approximated as being independent from the first stage, but is it necessarily something we want to do or just a short cut to make it easier to understand? Also the fact that there is some optimisation to do for the impact of the circuit both for the SMPS and the source confuses me.

Also, if I had an expression for the source Thevenin's equivalent circuit and also for the complex impendance of the load, is there a method to optimize for an n-stage filter?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: March 06, 2023, 07:42:21 pm by kreyszig »
 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2023, 09:33:52 pm »
mains EMI filters are very well documented.

Stock filters, CM, DM chokes,  X, Y caps.

What's the PSU Vin, Vout, P ?

Jon
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Offline kreyszigTopic starter

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2023, 09:53:21 pm »
mains EMI filters are very well documented.

Stock filters, CM, DM chokes,  X, Y caps.

What's the PSU Vin, Vout, P ?

Jon

Vin is 5-15V DC (~12V more likely), Vout is 5V, Pout is 3W, using MP4576 converter (using LPD8035V-333 fly-back for dual outputs) at 300 kHz, forced PWM. Power using about 1 m of cable. I want to prevent prevent oscillations, constrain EMI, limit current draw at startup. There was some off-topic discussion about it here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/surge-protection-grounding-and-fail-safe-biasing-for-isolated-rs-485/ . What I would really like to learn is the full thought process when deciding on a number of stages. designing the filter and picking components. There seem to be so many possible configurations including using TVS, MOVs, ferrite beads, etc.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: March 06, 2023, 10:05:47 pm by kreyszig »
 

Offline Benta

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2023, 10:25:27 pm »
If input noise is a prime consideration, use a SEPIC converter instead. Much more flexible and in your case no more complicated. At 3 W it's a perfect choice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-ended_primary-inductor_converter
 
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Offline kreyszigTopic starter

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2023, 10:41:07 pm »
If input noise is a prime consideration, use a SEPIC converter instead. Much more flexible and in your case no more complicated. At 3 W it's a perfect choice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-ended_primary-inductor_converter

Thanks. I need one dual output, one isolated and one non-isolated, this is why I went with a buck converter+ fly-back ("Fly-buck") design. I am fairly confident that this is a good design for my application. Designing filtering around it (input + outputs) is more what I am looking for. There are two proposed filter configurations in the MP4576 datasheet. As discussed in the other referenced threads it looks like there are issues with the one suggested for EMI filtering.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2023, 11:14:23 pm »
A filter is critically dependent on the impedances at its input and output.

Mains is an unknown, so be careful there.  You have complete control over the load side, but with the restrictions that it must have a low impedance, so that the negative input resistance of the SMPS doesn't create an oscillator, that its switching ripple is low enough for functional purposes (consequence: must have a shunt capacitor at this port), and that step load changes don't result in excessive step voltage changes.

Or general inputs, if not necessarily mains.

General inputs can be anywhere on the Smith chart: low or high impedance, resistive or reactive.  There will always be some inductance due to connecting wires, but this may be fractional ~µH, and this may or may not play well with the input side shunt/branch of the filter.  It could be high impedance from a long (inductive or resistive) cable, or a battery at low charge.  (Obviously, at some point the SMPS will refuse to work on a high enough source impedance, but we might consider anything up to some limiting DC/LF value.)

To be clear, a port is, for these purposes, the connection at each end of the filter.  For network theory purposes, we should confine ourselves to single-ended filters only (assume an ideal ground), in which case a port is two terminals, one being common ground, the other being the input/output node of the filter.

More generally, a port is a 2-terminal element for which there is some voltage drop, and no common-mode current (the terminal currents are equal and opposite, i.e. current flowing into one terminal flows immediately out the other); in other words, an ideal transformer (which can be approximated using real transformers and/or transmission lines*, if we need to).  But for present purposes, we can consider them common-ground, and it only matters that it's one node with respect to ground.

*Transformers are a special case of transmission line, really.

If we later must consider the common mode response, we can develop a CM equivalent model, and express that as a single-ended filter.  So this is nice and general, and we can smoosh things together later as needed.  (For example, the DM and CM response of a CMC can be designed separately.)

What does the impedance of a filter mean, anyway?  A couple things:
- It is the impedance, terminated into which, the designed frequency response will appear. (So, Butterworth/Chebyshev/etc..)
- It is the ratio of peak voltage in the transient response, to a peak current step applied to the port (or vice versa).  (Mind, if it's poorly damped, a pulse train could excite much higher peak voltage/current; but for a single lone step, that isn't happening.  And we should provide adequate damping anyway.)
- Squared, it is the ratio of inductance to capacitance, i.e. Zo = sqrt(L/C).  (The product of course gives frequency, Fc = 1 / (2 pi sqrt(L C)).)

For a generic low-pass filter of ladder topology (alternating shunt C and branch (series) L), the overall L and C values are given by these two relations.  Thus we can scale a prototype filter, say of Zo = ω_0 = 1, to any frequency and impedance desired, by scaling L and C respectively.  The filter characteristic is given by the relative values of these elements to this (unity) baseline.

A filter must have at least one termination in the system.  The most common prototypes use two (matched source and load).  This works when you are embedding a filter in a resistive system impedance such as 50Ω matched source and load.  It doesn't work so well here, as the above requirements show(!).

When we can assume the source impedance (say from a LISN), we might use that to dampen (terminate) the system.  This already can be tricky, because the impedance might be very different from what we need (i.e. 50 ohms, when we need 0.1 or something!).  When we can't, we can add impedance in series with the source, or in parallel to it, to equalize its impedance -- in effect providing our own LISN.

The key benefit to resistance is, it absorbs energy.

An unterminated (pure LC) filter will carry energy back and forth forever, at all frequencies -- there will always be some combination of source and load impedances where zero attenuation between source and load can be found.  Maybe your source/load can't manifest such impedances so there will always be some minimum attenuation, but this is the hazard when using high quality components (and not providing damping resistance).

And yes, this is one of those "waves exist for all time" kind of aspects.  We're considering frequency response here, for which it isn't important how long it takes the signal to propagate through the filter -- if we consider a step response for example, it might look alright --maybe it's got a lot of ringing, but it's not the full steppy step, so you might assume the highest frequencies have been attenuated -- but given enough time, we can still couple any frequency through a lossless network.

All this is basically to say, put some ESR on the capacitor(s), and you're fine.  But which ones, and how much, is the key, and for which one should know some network behavior (if not a full understanding of network theory).

So, for typical examples, and given the constraints above, we could have:

Just C:
If we assume resistive source, it's single order.  If inductive source, 2nd order.  If capacitive source, they add together, still single order (with respect to whatever resistance the source has; I mean here whether it's dominant reactive, but it's still going to have some resistance too).

We can dampen this by putting an R+Cb in parallel, Cb > 2.5 C, R = Zo = sqrt(L/C).  Here, we need to know the maximum source inductance L, and the impedance at the load side will be no higher than Zo (or, give or take a small factor) for any 0 < L < Lmax and any frequency near or above cutoff.

LC:
Starting with a series branch allows us to increase the source impedance, forcing the above situation with some L.  We might still want a shunt R+C at the inlet, to account for the case of excessive source L (and to further increase attenuation, making a 4th order filter in that case), or we might want to use a lossy L (that is, in parallel with some R, or in series with L || R) so it remains damped when a very low impedance (short cables to a battery or large capacitor?) is connected.

Ferrite beads are often used this way, though they aren't very good in power applications as they saturate at quite low currents.  They're best for signal purposes, where the peak currents are perhaps 10s mA, and involve component pins and transmission lines (PCB traces, wires in cables, wires or cables through free space) so the impedances are very modest (ballpark 100 ohms).

Note that, any time we put resistance together with reactance, we're making a pole-zero network, i.e. the impedance goes up or down to some limiting, constant (resistive) value.  If we changed all the capacitors in an LC(LC..) network to R+C, we'd get a high-frequency equivalent circuit (i.e. short out the capacitors) of a chain of L-R dividers -- we've added zeroes to the transfer function, which reduces attenuation at HF.  We probably want a few C's without R, or smaller C in parallel with some bulky R+C, to get the damping near Fc (and correspondingly we get a softer transition band -- this type of filter cannot give very sharp response) without having to rely on input or output resistance.

CLC:
Very popular as Cs are cheaper than Ls, and sources often have some inductance (as alluded to above), so you might even get an implicit 4th order response.  The inlet C might be low-ESR for good attenuation, while terminating it with a C || (R+C) on the load side -- choosing an impedance low enough to satisfy the impedance constraints, and Fc low enough to get the desired ripple rejection.

Higher order filters probably aren't a big deal (for DC, say at a buck input, you rarely need more than this; at mains, maybe two stages, or one onboard plus an inlet filter module), but there are some things you can do with them:

CLCLC
Suppose we put LCs either side of a midpoint, bisect the filter, and put termination resistance here instead.  To keep low DC/LF losses we still need to use R+C or R||Ls, but we can make the L or C of them almost arbitrarily large.  The filter prototype(s), I think... doubly terminated would be best?  So the average case is the best case (outside ports terminated), but the worst case is never more than twice as bad (one side still terminated)?  Some research may be needed on that (i.e. optimal prototype choice for one side terminated, other side random impedance).  Anyway, with the termination in the middle -- we can fully isolate the two halves of the filter, making input and output response independent of each other.

I kinda did a bit of that with this LISN, which I wanted to have well-damped response independent of the DC side impedance:
https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/Images/LISN_20MHz_30A.png
https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/Images/LISN_Built.jpg
note that the lossy inductor and both R+C'd C's contribute damping, so even if the DC port is short-circuit, L2 and C2 are damped, and if open, C3 is as well.  The extra order meanwhile gives good attenuation between DC and RF ports.

In a power supply, you might use a similar scheme, but at a lower impedance, using electrolytics for the ESR.

Constant impedance filters
Probably the most technical generalization, we can construct filters of most prototypes*, such that a constant input resistance is had.  This can be done at one or both ports, in which case the response indeed does not depend upon the source or load impedance -- there's no reactance from the filter (nor transfer through it, from source to load or vice versa, for the doubly-so case) to have any impact on the frequency response at either port, so it's perfectly ideal in that sense.

*Well, you can make a diplexing filter in any type, so there's that, but that requires double the element count.  But of types that only require an RC, RL and/or RLC -- just the gentler types (Butterworth, Bessel), I believe?

This may be of interest: http://jeroen.web.cern.ch/jeroen/reports/crfilter.pdf

I don't recall if filter tables are available for these in more types, or if you're kind of stuck optimizing one on your own.  Anyway, for power-line purposes, quite loose accuracy is required so it's no biggie to tweak a couple component values say in SPICE and be done with it.  Which also satisfies the other not-so-hidden constraint: use few elements to keep cost and layout area down.

Speaking of area, you can optimize that as well by considering the energy storage of the whole filter.  For a given attenuation at Fstop, you can find the minimum filter order such that energy storage is minimized.  It can indeed be valuable to increase filter order to get a steeper slope, than to use a low order and very low Fc.  Hmm, I derived that once, but don't recall the exact relation.  I should derive that again, it's simple enough...  Well, just to mention that that's a thing, anyway.

Tim
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Offline Benta

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2023, 11:40:39 pm »
Thanks. I need one dual output, one isolated and one non-isolated, this is why I went with a buck converter+ fly-back ("Fly-buck") design.
It's not a problem doing a multi-output (isolated) SEPIC design:
https://www.edn.com/power-tips-83-isolating-a-sepic/
 
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Offline jonpaul

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2023, 12:23:33 am »
Rebonjour a  kreyszig et TeskaCoil....

kreyszig  a  few questions please:

DC  source ..battery? Lin PSU? SMPS? UPS? Solar?

Transient perceived sources... eg lightning? Vehicle alt load dump? Inductive load off/on on same bus?

Environment Vehicle?  Land, sea air?

one off /DIY/production?


See the  excellent BOOKS on EMI filter design

Have fun,



Jon

Jean-Paul (EE 1968, the Internet Dinosaur)
 
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Offline kreyszigTopic starter

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2023, 02:19:16 am »

Thank you for all the info! I will go through all the types of filters you mentioned!
 

Offline kreyszigTopic starter

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2023, 02:25:28 am »
Thanks. I need one dual output, one isolated and one non-isolated, this is why I went with a buck converter+ fly-back ("Fly-buck") design.
It's not a problem doing a multi-output (isolated) SEPIC design:
https://www.edn.com/power-tips-83-isolating-a-sepic/

It looks interesting. How important is it to have coupled L1 and L2 inductors? Low leakage, isolated 1:1:1 30 uH transformers seem to be even harder to find than two coil ones... Is it common for people to make their one transformers? Maybe it would be better to discuss the regulator topic in this thread instead: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/efficient-regulated-5v-and-isolated-reg-5v-supply-from-unreg-2w-12-7-v/ . Thanks!
 

Offline kreyszigTopic starter

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2023, 02:33:18 am »
Bonjour Jon,

Rebonjour a  kreyszig et TeskaCoil....

kreyszig  a  few questions please:

DC  source ..battery? Lin PSU? SMPS? UPS? Solar?

DC source is another board (connecting to a port with a 12V DC line using a ~1m cable. The 12V Dc is generated from mains)

Transient perceived sources... eg lightning? Vehicle alt load dump? Inductive load off/on on same bus?

Environment Vehicle?  Land, sea air?

one off /DIY/production?
The board powering my circuit is part of a house heat pump air handler. The circuit I am working on is to control the heat pump using RS-485. It is a one off for now, but I am part of a community working with these heat pumps, so their might be interest from other people.

See the  excellent BOOKS on EMI filter design

Have fun,



Jon

Thank you for the book suggestions. They seem a bit difficult to find, but I will keep lookgin!
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2023, 03:29:16 am »
See also Henry Ott's book(s).

Triple windings aren't so important as you can just parallel the primaries of two 1:1s. The downside is maximum leakage between s1-s2 (i.e. Ls1-s2 = Lp-s1 + Lp-s2; in a single transformer, there can be better coupling between them), which affects cross-regulation. But that might not be a big deal.

Transformers are easy enough to make; at a minimum you need magnet wire, cores and tape, with bobbins a plus (maybe not strictly necessary for shape cores, but a big plus).  Fortunately they're carried by the major distributors these days.

And tape is somewhat optional if you have good enough insulation on the wire; there aren't many good sources of TIW (triple insulated wire) but it's great stuff when you can get it.

Transformers are hard to make well; for EMI purposes, understanding the transmission line nature of one can help quite a bit.

Also consider a 5V supply then a 1:1 DC-DC, which can be a module, or make your own with a pair of transistors or SN6501/MAX253 or etc.  Often a quite crappy sort of supply (no regulation, maybe not even current limiting/protection), but when you only need a watt and the load is consistent and known, that can be tolerable.

One advantage is, these can be on the quiet side thanks to the relatively low gain at high frequencies (for oscillators) and balanced operation.  (That is, for 1CT:1CT windings, equal and opposite voltages are applied across the inter-winding capacitance, giving little residual.  Mainly what's left is due to timing mismatches between the winding halves and the leakage inductance between them.  Which can still be quite small; I measured this part https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/pulse-electronics/PH9185-011NLT/3503430 with suspiciously low leakage between any 4 winding halves.  Hm, I forget what it was anymore; 100nH? 10nH seems to come to mind...  It's made with TIW by the way, hence the low leakage despite the high isolation.)

And high frequencies are easier to deal with in terms of CM filtering, at least as long as it's not gotten into any wires or circuit bulk (read: antennas) yet.

Tim
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 03:30:53 am by T3sl4co1l »
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Offline kreyszigTopic starter

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2023, 02:48:47 pm »
See also Henry Ott's book(s).

Triple windings aren't so important as you can just parallel the primaries of two 1:1s. The downside is maximum leakage between s1-s2 (i.e. Ls1-s2 = Lp-s1 + Lp-s2; in a single transformer, there can be better coupling between them), which affects cross-regulation. But that might not be a big deal.

Transformers are easy enough to make; at a minimum you need magnet wire, cores and tape, with bobbins a plus (maybe not strictly necessary for shape cores, but a big plus).  Fortunately they're carried by the major distributors these days.

And tape is somewhat optional if you have good enough insulation on the wire; there aren't many good sources of TIW (triple insulated wire) but it's great stuff when you can get it.

Transformers are hard to make well; for EMI purposes, understanding the transmission line nature of one can help quite a bit.

Also consider a 5V supply then a 1:1 DC-DC, which can be a module, or make your own with a pair of transistors or SN6501/MAX253 or etc.  Often a quite crappy sort of supply (no regulation, maybe not even current limiting/protection), but when you only need a watt and the load is consistent and known, that can be tolerable.

One advantage is, these can be on the quiet side thanks to the relatively low gain at high frequencies (for oscillators) and balanced operation.  (That is, for 1CT:1CT windings, equal and opposite voltages are applied across the inter-winding capacitance, giving little residual.  Mainly what's left is due to timing mismatches between the winding halves and the leakage inductance between them.  Which can still be quite small; I measured this part https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/pulse-electronics/PH9185-011NLT/3503430 with suspiciously low leakage between any 4 winding halves.  Hm, I forget what it was anymore; 100nH? 10nH seems to come to mind...  It's made with TIW by the way, hence the low leakage despite the high isolation.)

And high frequencies are easier to deal with in terms of CM filtering, at least as long as it's not gotten into any wires or circuit bulk (read: antennas) yet.

Tim

Thanks for the book suggestion, "Electromagnetic Compatibility Engineering" seems good. About TIW, there seem to be some options on Aliexpress for reasonably sized rolls. Not my default place to look, but when there is no availability at Digikey, etc and for more straightforward stuff? Do you think going with a SEPIC vs a buck SMPS would be worth it? I was hoping to finish designing my circuit soon. I am learning a ton, but doing a lot of redesign.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 02:52:28 pm by kreyszig »
 

Offline Benta

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2023, 05:07:32 pm »
The nice thing about the SEPIC is that its input is a capacitor and an inductor. For this reason, it sends practically no switching noise back on the DC input bus. You might say it's filtered already.
Same thing for the Cuk, by the way.
 
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Offline kreyszigTopic starter

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2023, 06:11:06 pm »
The nice thing about the SEPIC is that its input is a capacitor and an inductor. For this reason, it sends practically no switching noise back on the DC input bus. You might say it's filtered already.
Same thing for the Cuk, by the way.

Yes I agree these are nice features. I am just not sure if I want to start making a custom transformer in order to use this design (I was aiming for ~80% power conversion efficiency, 600 mA total isolated + non-isolated 5V outputs), as it looks like what is available off the shelf from WE, CoilCraft and Pulse is rather limited.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 06:12:54 pm by kreyszig »
 

Offline kreyszigTopic starter

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2023, 04:16:00 pm »
Just C:
If we assume resistive source, it's single order.  If inductive source, 2nd order.  If capacitive source, they add together, still single order (with respect to whatever resistance the source has; I mean here whether it's dominant reactive, but it's still going to have some resistance too).

We can dampen this by putting an R+Cb in parallel, Cb > 2.5 C, R = Zo = sqrt(L/C).  Here, we need to know the maximum source inductance L, and the impedance at the load side will be no higher than Zo (or, give or take a small factor) for any 0 < L < Lmax and any frequency near or above cutoff.

Hi Tim,

I am trying to reproduce what you said above so I make sure I understand properly. I wrote the transfer function for an inductor in series with a capacitor C which is itself in parallel with a capacitor Cb in series with a resistor R. The transfer function I get is

H(s) = 1/ (R L C Cb)   (1 + s R Cb) / {s^3 + [ 1/(RC) + 1/(RCb) ] s^2 + s / (LC)  + 1 / (R L C Cb) }

Where do you go from here to get to Cb > 2.5 C, R = Zo = sqrt(L/C) , given that the transfer function has three poles?

Thanks!!
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2023, 04:32:42 am »
If you don't need an analytical proof, it will suffice to put things in terms of omega = 1/sqrt(LC), Zo = sqrt(L/C), zeta = R/Zo, and alpha = Cb/C, then plot around normalized omega = 1 and Zo = 1 and see the effect of alpha and zeta on overall Q, Fc and shape (pole/zero locations).  Otherwise, keep working it to get magnitude transfer function and peak amplitude, and see what minimum Cb is needed to eliminate the peak (actually, that might be a bad plan of attack, since the peak going away means there's no local maxima to find..).  Or find the poles and zeroes of the transfer function (it's "only" cubic?) and solve for various interesting properties: pole-zero cancellation, Q of the complex pole pair (for target response, or critical or over damping), etc.

I believe Cb = 2.5 C and R = Zo gives Q <= 2 or something like that.  It's been a while since I went through the calculation (or plotting).

Tim
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Offline kreyszigTopic starter

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2023, 01:23:31 pm »
If you don't need an analytical proof, it will suffice to put things in terms of omega = 1/sqrt(LC), Zo = sqrt(L/C), zeta = R/Zo, and alpha = Cb/C, then plot around normalized omega = 1 and Zo = 1 and see the effect of alpha and zeta on overall Q, Fc and shape (pole/zero locations).  Otherwise, keep working it to get magnitude transfer function and peak amplitude, and see what minimum Cb is needed to eliminate the peak (actually, that might be a bad plan of attack, since the peak going away means there's no local maxima to find..).  Or find the poles and zeroes of the transfer function (it's "only" cubic?) and solve for various interesting properties: pole-zero cancellation, Q of the complex pole pair (for target response, or critical or over damping), etc.

I believe Cb = 2.5 C and R = Zo gives Q <= 2 or something like that.  It's been a while since I went through the calculation (or plotting).

Tim

Thanks. I will express the transfer function in terms of omega, Z0, zeta and alpha and see if I can manage to find analytical expressions for the poles. Last time I tried I obtained a very ugly expression. I did some plotting with Spice though, and what I found is that RL has to be slightly under half Z0 in order to get to critical damping, otherwise I end up with an underdamped response (see example with RL ~= 2/3 Zo)?

Edit: Hmm, in fact if I try with different scales (e.g. L=253.3u, C=10n, R=159.15, RL~=2/3R), I get a totally different response from Spice, as if the critical damping condition for L, C, R and RL was different from the one you provided. Am I using the right circuit? Thanks!
« Last Edit: March 12, 2023, 01:38:23 pm by kreyszig »
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2023, 10:30:54 pm »
With RL alone you can solve for any level of damping without the RC.  The RC is only needed to cover the worst case (maximum) RL values, or if load is CCS (since we don't care about its DC characteristic, only AC / incremental resistance).

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Offline kreyszigTopic starter

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2023, 01:43:31 am »
With RL alone you can solve for any level of damping without the RC.  The RC is only needed to cover the worst case (maximum) RL values, or if load is CCS (since we don't care about its DC characteristic, only AC / incremental resistance).

Tim

Yes, in fact I had added the RL after trying without it. Without RL the response I have is more underdamped (see attachment). Without RL there is no R value that seems to reach critical damping using Cb=2.5C.

Edit: There was an issue with the original Spice simulation. I updated this post with the right results
« Last Edit: March 13, 2023, 12:14:41 pm by kreyszig »
 

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2023, 02:07:01 am »
In order to reach critical damping with the same values for L and C, I need very different Cb and R values (R needs to be smaller, and Cb needs to be 3 orders of magnitudes larger)

Note: I edited this post due for the same reason as my previous post.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2023, 12:24:17 pm by kreyszig »
 

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2023, 02:39:04 am »
At those values, we can ignore C and reduce it to a series RLC.  That should be heavily overdamped, not critical: sqrt(253.3u/500u) ~= 0.71Ω and R is 11 times larger.  There will be a pair of real poles near Fc (not quite the R*Cb and L/R time constants, because they pull together) with a zero at Cb*Rb, then one additional pole much higher at C*Rb.

For closely clustered values, the poles all affect each other and simple approximations like the above aren't possible, you more or less have to factorize the transfer function to separate them.

It might be the case that for Cb = 2.5C, maximum damping is Q ~ 1, or 1.5 or thereabouts; I'm not sure exactly.  Like I said, it's been a while since I derived this (if I did at all?..).  But still, that's close enough for supply purposes.

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Offline kreyszigTopic starter

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2023, 01:07:46 pm »
At those values, we can ignore C and reduce it to a series RLC.  That should be heavily overdamped, not critical: sqrt(253.3u/500u) ~= 0.71Ω and R is 11 times larger.  There will be a pair of real poles near Fc (not quite the R*Cb and L/R time constants, because they pull together) with a zero at Cb*Rb, then one additional pole much higher at C*Rb.

For closely clustered values, the poles all affect each other and simple approximations like the above aren't possible, you more or less have to factorize the transfer function to separate them.

It might be the case that for Cb = 2.5C, maximum damping is Q ~ 1, or 1.5 or thereabouts; I'm not sure exactly.  Like I said, it's been a while since I derived this (if I did at all?..).  But still, that's close enough for supply purposes.

Tim


Hi Tim,

so there was an issue with my previous two results that used L=253.3 uH. There was a comma in the value instead of a dot which caused Spice to use an arbitrary value it seems. I fixed it, but the conclusions from the simulations remain relatively the same (I updated my last two posts with the new results). Basically R needs to be quite a bit smaller than sqrt(L/C), and Cb needs to be much larger than C, in order to reach critical damping. If I lower R, filtering improves, but I cannot really lower Cb without the filter becoming underdamped. The value for Cb to achieve critical damping is so large that it can basically be ignored (I can replace it by a short and I get basically the same Q). With R set to sqrt(L/C), I get about 5 dB gain at 65 kHz.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2023, 01:10:12 pm by kreyszig »
 

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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2023, 03:00:57 am »
Let me see here...oh, that was a careless bug...
Well, that's why this tool isn't officially published... :-DD

Anyways, here's a screenshot from this tool I made; it's set up so values can be click-dragged in real time, so it's handy for problems like this.  The circuits still look a bit messy but the enabled elements are only the variables shown.  So there's a series La (branch 1), shunt Ca (branch 2), and shunt Ra + Cb (branch 3).  These are your L, C, Rb, Cb.

Just starting with omega_0 = 1M, Zo = 1, Cb = 2.5C and varying R, minimum is pretty close to 1.09 ohm.  For Cb = 1u, the minimum peak is at about 3 V/V, for R = 1.71 ohm.  At Cb = 10u, it flattens out to 1.2 V/V at R = 0.8 or so.

Even with Cb = 1000u, there is still some rise to overall voltage gain.  What's going on is, for intermediate values say Cb = 50u, too-low R makes Cb dominate, while too-high R makes C dominate.  There's always some capacitive reactance leftover, which resonates however slightly with L.  The system can be well damped in the sense of no complex poles, but the zero still gives some voltage gain, which might be what you're seeing.  At least, I think that's an adequate description of what's going on.

Because of the zero, we can't get a perfectly monotonic response as we expect for an all-pole filter.

To get voltage gain very close to 1 maximum, an astronomical Cb value is required, since it's just swamping out the zero.  For example, Cb = 100u gives a peak of ~1.02 at R = 0.717; Cb = 200u gives a peak of ~1.01 at R = 0.711; even Cb = 1 (that's farads) gives a peak of 1 + 2.03e-6 at R=0.7.  Sounds like a pattern to me!

Another analysis is input impedance: since this network is series resonant with respect to the voltage source, we should optimize for maximum impedance at the valley.  For this goal, Cb = 2.5u and R = 1.25 is pretty close to the max (Zin(min) = 0.43 ohm or so).  For Cb = 10u, it's around R = 0.955 and Zin(min) = 0.604.

Output impedance is roughly the inverse, of course.

For power supply purposes, we really just want it well-enough behaved, so we don't mind the zero as long as it's modest, and as long as the peaks are low and broad.

Tim
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Re: Approach to design a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter?
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2023, 11:14:00 am »
Designing a multi-stage RLC low-pass filter for an SMPS input can be a complex process, but there are a few general steps you can follow to get started:

Determine the requirements: Start by determining the specifications for the filter, such as the cutoff frequency, attenuation required at specific frequencies, and the input and output impedances.

Choose the filter topology: Based on the specifications, choose the appropriate filter topology. A common topology for multi-stage filters is the Butterworth filter, which provides a maximally flat response in the passband.

Calculate the component values: Calculate the values of the components (resistors, capacitors, and inductors) for each stage of the filter using the chosen topology and specifications. This can involve complex calculations, such as solving differential equations for the filter transfer function.

Simulate the filter: Use simulation software to model the filter and verify that it meets the specifications. This can involve adjusting component values and topology until the desired performance is achieved.

Build and test the filter: Once the design is finalized, build the filter and test it to ensure it meets the specifications.

When designing a multi-stage filter, it's important to consider the interactions between the stages. If the impedance of one stage is significantly different from the previous stage, it can affect the performance of the overall filter. In general, it's best to design each stage to have a similar impedance to minimize these interactions.

To optimize the filter for a specific source Thevenin's equivalent circuit and load impedance, you can use circuit simulation software to model the filter and adjust the component values to achieve the desired performance. This can be a complex process and may involve iterating on the design multiple times to achieve the desired results.
 


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