Author Topic: Audio distortion measurement techniques  (Read 14939 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline commieTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 278
  • Country: gb
Audio distortion measurement techniques
« on: September 10, 2016, 07:56:23 pm »
Hi Fella's

I'm playing around with audio at the minute and there is something I can't understand regarding the audio range noise floor.We have all heard of some punters claiming a THD figures of 0.001%?

I have a Rigol 815 and a GWinstek 2202E spectrum analyser and scope respectively. So what does 1% distortion actually mean? 1 part in 100, if I have 1Volt r.m.s. @ 1KHz(0dBVrms-ref), then we have all the sum of the squares equating to 10mVr.m.s.with presquare root for 1% distortion.No problem so far?

Now, for the above figures to be real you will require a noise floor of at least -45dBVrms, right? Otherwise the harmonics will be lost in the noise.

In fact, to support 0.1%, 0.01% and 0.001% distortion figures, the latter requires a noise floor of at least -110dBVrms!

I aint a noise specialist but I am aware of thermal and 1/f noises and my instruments give a noise floor of -70dbVrms on a good day so the question I would like to ask is how do you get the audio frequency range noise floor down to around -100dB??  :scared:

Cheers
Commie
 

Offline ruairi

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 302
  • Country: us
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2016, 08:33:19 pm »
This is a complex issue but the short answer is that measuring low distortion in audio gear is not done with standard lab gear, to measure the lowest levels of distortion you need a dedicated audio analyzer - Audio Precision, Prism Sound, Rohde & Schwarz etc.

How distortion correlates with listening pleasure or the lack thereof is an even deeper subject.  I've spent 22 years as a professional audio engineer, the last 15 as a mastering engineer.  Listening is my job and I've spent the last 10 years studying electronics to gain a deeper understanding of why things sound the way they do.

If you are interested in distortion measurement for audio spend some time looking through the documents available on ap.com, there difference between THD and THD+N etc.
 
The following users thanked this post: rx8pilot, AudioFile

Offline dom0

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1483
  • Country: 00
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2016, 09:19:30 pm »
Yes, general purpose gear like spectrum analysers (or scopes) aren't suitable to this kind of measurement.

Distortion can be measured using the residual method (ie. a practically perfect (very, very low noise, distortion and other spurious signals) sine generator and a similarly perfect frequency/phase-locking notch filter followed by a RMS converter), which was fairly common and has been implemented many times.
Modern audio analysers usually are "just" the combination of something similar to a good sound card and a computer, ie. the signal is amplified and digitized, all further processing is digital. Similarly signal generation is often digital as well; although there are still analog generators in production, some of which are still exceeding the performance of even the best digital generators.
,
 

Offline DaJMasta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2298
  • Country: us
    • medpants.com
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2016, 11:16:28 pm »
I've also got some interest with various audio measurements, and I'm wondering why THD is such a difficult thing to get without specialized gear.  Is it that you're basically doing a high sensitivity harmonic analysis and then doing additional computation over top, and there just isn't a good way of doing it without computational muscle?  Is it just that with a low noise floor front end and a very low jitter timebase you end up with an expensive piece of gear just because of the components?

Given the low bandwidth of audio and the comparatively high sample rates of various instruments, you'd think you could make a good measurement so long as your front end was designed properly.  Could you get a reasonable approximation of a good THD measurement by sending your (known accurate) tone for a longer time and just averaging samples - or is the off-slightly-for-a-period frequency distortions sort of the point of the THD measurement?


As for the OP, it seems like DSAs and audio analyzers do require the extremely low noise floor - most of the well regarded ones advertise better than -100dB, though there are a few in the 90s.  In fact, most computer sound chips will advertise better than -100dB noise floor, with the premium ones close to -120dB.  I really doubt that they actually achieve that inside a PC case and sometimes questionable pcb layouts (you're not going to hear-112dB on your motherboard-integrated sound, regardless of the spec), but it does seem that even decent grade audio parts are rated below 0.01% THD and a -100dB noise floor.
 

Offline Gary.M

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 137
  • Country: nz
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2016, 11:37:24 pm »
Google Quantasylum QA-401

 

Offline uncle_bob

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2441
  • Country: us
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2016, 12:53:46 am »
Hi

Ok, here's a quick simple answer:

Measure your 1 KHz  fundamental signal in a 0.1 Hz bandwidth centered at 1 KHz. Measure each of the 19 relevant harmonics in a 0.1 Hz bandwidth centered at each of the harmonics. You now have 19 x 0.1 Hz = 2 Hz of noise. If your noise spectral density messes that up, you have major issues in your design. A spectral density at -110 dbV is a really noisy circuit.

Bob
 
The following users thanked this post: VK5RC

Offline commieTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 278
  • Country: gb
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2016, 11:30:48 am »
Okay Chaps,

Thanks for all the replies, next time I see 0.001% distortion figures, I'll view with a bit of scepticism  :-\
 

Offline Pjotr

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 461
  • Country: nl
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2016, 11:58:09 am »
Depends on how it is measured. As pointed out by Bob: How deep you can measure depends on the noise bandwidth.

With a good 24 bit sound card, a -150dB noise floor is readily possible with off the shelf low cost software (http://www.artalabs.hr/index.htm). That is < 0.1 ppm. Unfortunately the distortion of the sound card itself is not that low and becomes the limitation. To measure really low you need an ultra low distortion sine source and notch filter (also ultra low distortion) for 1st harmonic suppression.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 12:01:17 pm by Pjotr »
 

Online Kleinstein

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 14197
  • Country: de
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2016, 03:46:09 pm »
The noise level depends on bandwidth, so you don't really need that low noise to measure low THD values. The trick is using longer time averaging and only looking at the harmonics.

Usually you are limited by the harmonics from the detecting ADC and the signal source. With quite some math and extra measurements one can get around that limits a little.

There also is the classical notch filter to reduce the fundamental and that way allow higher THD for the ADC side. Than even a scope may be OK, though even low cost sound cards are usually better at audio frequencies. Still there should be a high quality source.
 

Offline Pjotr

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 461
  • Country: nl
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2016, 04:33:25 pm »
This is what I archived with my (quite old) M-Audio Audiophile192 on-board PCI card with input and output connected (loop back). Note that 1-bit oversampling cards have lowest distortion around -10dB FS.
 

Offline uncle_bob

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2441
  • Country: us
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2016, 06:01:40 pm »
Okay Chaps,

Thanks for all the replies, next time I see 0.001% distortion figures, I'll view with a bit of scepticism  :-\

Hi

No reason to be skeptical of the reading it's self. The number can be measured and the measurement its self is quite repeatable. Put another way, when they say 0.001%, that number can be verified.

Is a device at 0.001% better than a device that "only" does 0.002%? Yes, indeed the first one is better than the second one. Is this the *only* spec that matters on an audio device? Of course not. I'd like to see some proper IMD and transient data as well if we are talking about linearity.

Lots of specs, lots of combinations, how much money is also a spec.

Bob
 

Offline commieTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 278
  • Country: gb
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2016, 06:28:33 pm »
Well Hi again,

I have just been reading the spec. of Marconi's TF2331/a 1975 distortion factor meter and it seems to make a lot of sense and realism to me.Basically with its most sensitive range being 0.1% fsd, so 0.02% should just about be readable on its 0-100 meter i.e., as 20% of fsd. It's noise floor will then be about 0.015% in its 100KHz bandwidth(switchable).Not sure what the limiting noise floor of HP's 334 is? but I'll bet it's not much better than the Marconi TF2331/a DFM. :popcorn:
 

Offline uncle_bob

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2441
  • Country: us
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2016, 06:42:19 pm »
Well Hi again,

I have just been reading the spec. of Marconi's TF2331/a 1975 distortion factor meter and it seems to make a lot of sense and realism to me.Basically with its most sensitive range being 0.1% fsd, so 0.02% should just about be readable on its 0-100 meter i.e., as 20% of fsd. It's noise floor will then be about 0.015% in its 100KHz bandwidth(switchable).Not sure what the limiting noise floor of HP's 334 is? but I'll bet it's not much better than the Marconi TF2331/a DFM. :popcorn:

Hi

Keep in mind that both of those meters are ancient. I was selling surplus 334's back in the 1970's ....

The advent of digital signal processing has changed a lot of the limits on a whole bunch of instruments. It also has created the tools to go a lot further into optimizing circuits.

Bob
 

Offline commieTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 278
  • Country: gb
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2016, 07:46:19 pm »
Hi

Keep in mind that both of those meters are ancient. I was selling surplus 334's back in the 1970's ....

It's now 2016 and they are still selling as surplus at eye watering prices, check this one out on Ebay..... 
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Marconi-Instruments-IFR-Aeroflex-TF2331-Audio-Distortion-Meter-/282139564758?hash=item41b0d41ad6:g:j20AAOSwHoFXtDfG


The advent of digital signal processing has changed a lot of the limits on a whole bunch of instruments.

As already stated my measuring instruments are both dsp based and both give -70dBVrms noise floor in the audio band.
 

Offline uncle_bob

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2441
  • Country: us
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2016, 08:37:31 pm »
Hi

Keep in mind that both of those meters are ancient. I was selling surplus 334's back in the 1970's ....

It's now 2016 and they are still selling as surplus at eye watering prices, check this one out on Ebay..... 
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Marconi-Instruments-IFR-Aeroflex-TF2331-Audio-Distortion-Meter-/282139564758?hash=item41b0d41ad6:g:j20AAOSwHoFXtDfG


The advent of digital signal processing has changed a lot of the limits on a whole bunch of instruments.

As already stated my measuring instruments are both dsp based and both give -70dBVrms noise floor in the audio band.

Hi

What really matters is the noise floor in dbV (or dbm or dbf or dbW) / sqrt(Hz). That lets you get an idea of how quiet they actually are. A number without a bandwidth could indicate a very low floor (if it's a wide bandwidth) or a really crummy floor (if it is a narrow bandwidth). Since it's audio, you could (and probably should) have a bandwidth close to or less than 1 Hz for decent measurements. There are analyzers that date back to the 1970's that will get you into the <-150 dbV / sqrt(Hz) range.  These days "something good" would be in the <-180 dbV/sqrt(Hz) range with the input terminated with a 50 ohm resistor.

Bob
 

Offline JS

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 947
  • Country: ar
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2016, 02:11:54 am »
Hi, it's quite a topic this one, I invite you to GDIY to talk about this, you will have quite a master class there in this respect.

  The most critical part is the generator, you won't be able to get any better than you'r generator does because you can't identify what was generator's fault or what was introduced by the DUT. Even so there are quite nice generators, HP classic topology archives some of the best analog generators for low distortion sine waves. You can filter that out then, to get even better numbers, RC filters could be quite linear using NPO caps and decent resistors (avoid tiny SMD and carbon and you are probably good to go)

  Once you get pass the generator isn't as tricky, you don't need such low noise floors or THD on your ADC. Once the signal is out of the DUT first thing it will see is a filter, again, some cleverness would make an 8bit ADC enough to measure few ppm of distortion, but converters and processing comes cheap now days. Use a nice filter, a HPF is good enough, you don't have any useful information till 1 octave later than your fundamental so it's easy to get it XdB lower. Those XdB you will win in your dynamic range of the ADC. Then the software will make sure it reads the values at the points of interest.

  In my opinion the importance of a very low THD has to do with eliminating the characterization of the distortion, you may be good all day with a 0.1% THD or not, depending on the content. If you have a heavy weight on higher harmonics it get's much more noticeable very fast. If you have 0.00001% THD it doesn't matter where it is, you won't hear it. Adding the noise to the spec reflects the dynamic range of the device, if your input level goes higher your THD+N will increase, if it goes lower too. So you have 0.001% at +7dBu input, if you put +10dBu the distortion will be higher than optimal, if you put +4dBu your S/N ratio will decrease.

  Here goes an over simplification of the application of all this. In user grade audio doesn't really matter, the dynamic range of the signal packed in a CD is quite low, not because of the media but culture, the louder the betta, if you listen to Californication (the whole album) converted to 8bit WAV you won't notice a difference, bit more noise between tracks at most, 20dB dynamic range it's all is really used in most records. When working on a production is quite different, the signal in the room may have twice that easily, probably more. A mic preamp would probably round the 90dB dynamic range, but we still want more in later stages, so if we are 10dB higher or lower than the optimal place it won't affect the final result, and we don't need to worry about the level of the signal at each point (which are a lot, really helps). Then the last step is to crunch all into those final 20dB which will take up signal and noise, but we worked which such lower noise and high dynamic range all the way noise doesn't matter at that point. 32bit floating point audio is used for this reason, it doesn't have any more quality than 24bit but it's much easier to work with, you'll never have a peak you won't be able to handle but you are not worried about digital noise floor. Working on 24bits if you are -40dBFS of your peaks your noise may start to suffer on the lower passages once you take the level up again. I'm careful enough to work with 24bits but it's a very good thing for people who isn't.

JS
If I don't know how it works, I prefer not to turn it on.
 

Offline uncle_bob

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2441
  • Country: us
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2016, 01:31:41 pm »
Hi

There are a lot of other things done at or below 20KHz that have very little to do with consumer audio. They still get tested with the same gear and use a lot of the same specs. Each of those areas has its own quirks and limits. For some things 400 Hz is "high frequency".

Bob
 

Offline dom0

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1483
  • Country: 00
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2016, 04:08:03 pm »
Quote
The most critical part is the generator, you won't be able to get any better than you'r generator does because you can't identify what was generator's fault or what was introduced by the DUT.

With some digital signal processing you actually can.
,
 

Offline uncle_bob

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2441
  • Country: us
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2016, 05:00:48 pm »
Quote
The most critical part is the generator, you won't be able to get any better than you'r generator does because you can't identify what was generator's fault or what was introduced by the DUT.

With some digital signal processing you actually can.

Hi

You can also fake yourself out ..... one stupid example is clipping (= both the input waveform and the DUT clip the same way). There are others. The approach works in general, but there are always corner cases where it may have issues.

Bob
 

Offline commieTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 278
  • Country: gb
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2016, 04:01:34 pm »
Hi Folks,

As I said before, I'm analysing audio distortion.Here are some facts recently discovered...

1. hp 331/2/3/4 automatic distortion analyser (average responding and using wien bridge for notch) designed around 1965 giving the most sensitive range of 0.1% fsd currently £200.00 on Ebay.
2. hp 339A automatic distortion analyser (true r.m.s. responding and using twin tee as notch, contains its own oscillator) designed around 1977 giving the most sensitive range of 0.01% fsd. Cost from dealer ~£1000.00
3. There is currently high demand for hollow state audio amp kits or ready built, bringing with it a high demand for distortion analysers and low distortion oscillators.Current contemporary distortion analysers are mostly out of reach due to price.
4. Hollow state amps exhibit about 0.7% distortion whilst solid state amps can achieve a  factor of 10 or better producing distortion levels of around 0.05%.However, users of hollow state amps claim they sound better than ss amps albeit at higher distortion levels?
5. I have found the best frequency notching filter arrangement to be the twin tee :-+
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 04:05:25 pm by commie »
 

Offline uncle_bob

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2441
  • Country: us
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2016, 04:10:18 pm »
Hi

What I have found is that the same distortion measurement gear that you can buy for $1,000 on a "buy it now" basis, sells for about $150 when they come out in bulk and are sold at auction. You pay a *lot* for the convenience of getting it right now compared to spending time shopping. You may indeed wait quite a while for the next batch to come out. You will save a lot of money ....

I can buy an 8903B for $1200 right now with no problem at all. Neither one of the two I have cost more than $200 at auction on eBay.

Bob
 

Offline commieTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 278
  • Country: gb
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2016, 04:22:06 pm »
Hi

What I have found is that the same distortion measurement gear that you can buy for $1,000 on a "buy it now" basis, sells for about $150 when they come out in bulk and are sold at auction. You pay a *lot* for the convenience of getting it right now compared to spending time shopping. You may indeed wait quite a while for the next batch to come out. You will save a lot of money ....

I can buy an 8903B for $1200 right now with no problem at all. Neither one of the two I have cost more than $200 at auction on eBay.

Bob

Actually Bob you are right and wrong, I live in the U.K. remember?, try buying a hp339a over here and in fact the hp339a I quoted was from a dealer fully furbished 100% working.Even buying from Ebay through an auction and making the assumption the analyser is based in the USA we, here in the U.K. are clobbered with import duties and vat.
 

Offline ruairi

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 302
  • Country: us
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2016, 04:35:52 pm »
You can do much better with a computer based solution and an external sound card/interface.  I have a Prism dScope on the bench but when I'm on location in studio I'll happily use REW (Room EQ Wizard), a free program with a USB audio interface.  It works wonderfully.  It'll also do frequency response, phase, impulse response and lots of other good stuff.  There are lots of other free or cheap options too - Audio Tester etc.

When you dig a little deeper you'll discover that the outright THD+N figure is only a very rough guideline of audio quality, being able to view individual harmonics is much more useful.  I've seen those HP analyzers come up for $150 locally and in my neighborhood and had zero interest (and I love dedicated hardware).

 

Offline commieTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 278
  • Country: gb
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2016, 04:56:03 pm »
You can do much better with a computer based solution and an external sound card/interface.  I have a Prism dScope on the bench but when I'm on location in studio I'll happily use REW (Room EQ Wizard), a free program with a USB audio interface.  It works wonderfully.  It'll also do frequency response, phase, impulse response and lots of other good stuff.  There are lots of other free or cheap options too - Audio Tester etc.

I'm not sure feeding sonic waves into a computer for analysis is such a good idea. I have a RIGOL dg4102 digital oscillator claiming 0.1% distortion in its audio range, when I measure it I do get 0.1% distorton but the signal after the notch is full of spikes in the time domain.

When you dig a little deeper you'll discover that the outright THD+N figure is only a very rough guideline of audio quality,
Nobody was claiming thd figures to be the holy grail however it can be used as a figure of merit, also when checking the spec. of any commercial amp, thd figures are always given but no reference to individual harmonics.

  being able to view individual harmonics is much more useful.

What do the individual harmonics tell you?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 05:02:36 pm by commie »
 

Offline uncle_bob

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2441
  • Country: us
Re: Audio distortion measurement techniques
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2016, 05:41:51 pm »
Hi

What I have found is that the same distortion measurement gear that you can buy for $1,000 on a "buy it now" basis, sells for about $150 when they come out in bulk and are sold at auction. You pay a *lot* for the convenience of getting it right now compared to spending time shopping. You may indeed wait quite a while for the next batch to come out. You will save a lot of money ....

I can buy an 8903B for $1200 right now with no problem at all. Neither one of the two I have cost more than $200 at auction on eBay.

Bob

Actually Bob you are right and wrong, I live in the U.K. remember?, try buying a hp339a over here and in fact the hp339a I quoted was from a dealer fully furbished 100% working.Even buying from Ebay through an auction and making the assumption the analyser is based in the USA we, here in the U.K. are clobbered with import duties and vat.

Hi

I hear this a lot, "the only good stuff is not where I am". Oddly enough, when I go shopping, that's *exactly* what I find. All the good stuff at low prices is being sold in the UK and it will cost me a fortune to get it..... time to spend some more time shopping. It's not a function of location as much as *time*. If you don't have the time, you will pay somebody else to have it for you right now.

Let's go through the numbers:

8903B for $150 at auction.
VAT at 20% (or whatever) is $30
Shipping is $70 to $120 depending on where it's from
Customs processing is $30
Duty at 20% is $30

Price delivered is $260 to $310. Still a *long* way away from the $1200 you pay somebody to have it right now.

Bob


 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf