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Darn... I just wanted him to confirm to rule 7, now I have to wait even longer if it will ever happen
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Oklay...
just happened here...?
I generally tend to agree with Oculus' surmise; ogden has been nit-pick trolling the thread pretty hard, and unless joe is outright lying, he has a history of thread-stalking joe.
Joe's response, while it may have been viscerally cathartic, was def a bit OTT for a public space; it should've been toned down or if the venting was necessary, taken to PM.
But seriously... this is a pretty obvious case of personality-clash oscillation. This is hardly new territory; we've been dealing with this kind of passive-aggressive back & forth since the days of UseNet and the solution is pretty well-established: BOTH parties are responsible. Not JUST the troll, and not just the one(s) feeding the troll. Either both/all or none should be given a time-out. That is why we call it a time-out: Not a punishment, but forcing all parties to step back and consider their contribution to the NOISE part of the SNR.
That said... Joe, when you get back, we SERIOUSLY need decently-focused pictures of the ENTIRE circuit. It's delicious to see those numbers, but part of the OP's rules were that the entire circuit needs to be SEEN to count; and it seems obvious to me that requires pictures of the entire circuit rendered clearly enough that someone else COULD duplicate your circuit and results (or at least come close) in a double-blind fashion. So far we have NOT seen any of your circuits in this level of detail.
If your circuit requires the Faraday cage, cool. We need documentation-quality pics of the actual circuit before and after the cage is applied. Preferably decent resolution video of the cage IN ACTION; if the circuit works but needs the cage to get your results, you should be able to demonstrate that in real-time.
BreakingOhmsLaw, I humbly submit that while joe's results ARE impressive, PA0PBZ is correct: He simply has not given reasonable proof that his actual circuits ARE what he claims they are.
Okay... I'm going to go back to lurking and tossing peanut shells now; this "being the voice of reason" thing is quite taxing.
mnem
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In Joe's defense, he has been documenting with videos up until about a week ago...another video featuring the new circuit and demonstrating its construction in detail would be great IMO. But yeah, he has been a bit coy and I think one should definitely at a minimum provide high quality photos and tell us exactly what parts you're using, as I have tried to do with each "thing" I've attempted. There's no reason to hide anything about your circuit here unless you are, in fact, cheating the system outside of the spirit of gentlemanly competition. I say this because I support creative RF design as long as the breadboard is intimately involved. Otherwise I could build my circuits Manhattan style.
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While I have no reason to suspect foul play on Joes part, I ask him to provide clear images while running and showing the counter for the sake of fairness.
I believe that Joe is where he is now, because he has shown good knowledge of RF engineering and particularly how to deal with parasitics (thinning wires, shielding etc.)
That said, i have parts on order, and i know i am not the only one. First to dethrone Joe shall be known as the kingslayer from hence forth! -
...and tell us exactly what parts you're using...
Fair enough, here's what I used: http://www.cel.com/pdf/datasheets/ne3210s1.pdf
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Mind you, I'm not meaning to suggest Joe is doing something shady...I rather think he is not...just that for the sake of fairness we should strive to be as complete as possible documenting our efforts.
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Mind you, I'm not meaning to suggest Joe is doing something shady...I rather think he is not...just that for the sake of fairness we should strive to be as complete as possible documenting our efforts.
I agree, but I wonder why he is keeping his secrets, I'd like to learn how he is doing things, that's why we are here after all. Having said that, I don't like the way he is creating floating capacitors and inductors, it seems to defeat the idea that everything has to be connected via the breadboard but since OP has giving him the OK on that I guess it's fine. -
Having said that, I don't like the way he is creating floating capacitors and inductors, it seems to defeat the idea that everything has to be connected via the breadboard but since OP has giving him the OK on that I guess it's fine.
To be fair, that was basically ogdens criticism.
But once you are dealing with microwaves, that can hardly be avoided. If I allow leads to be soldered on SMT parts, what is stopping anyone from making them longer to act as an inductor, or running them along the breadboard as capacitor? So there is little point in forbidding that. Should that prove to be too large an advantage, we may need to split the competition into soldering allowed/not allowed, but for the time being feel that would be to restricting on creating your own capacitors and inductors.
Also, long leads can be fair use as a delay line once we go even faster. Wouldn't want to deny those.
Feel free to share your thoughts on this, everyone.
If there is a large consent on any rule, we can tweak it to keep it fun. -
OK, this is the same 2SC5227 circuit as before, except I very carefully tweaked positioning of the components, particularly the extra inductors I added around the basic Colpitts circuit. I also played with the input voltage. Somehow, this combination of tweaks allowed me to bring the second harmonic 7.5 dB up from the original fundamental, enough to get a stable reading on the 5350B microwave counter.
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I guess part of the criticism is because he's not showing what he does, we only get to see pictures of part of the circuit. I feel that I'm limited by the length (inductance) and coupling (capacitance) of the breadboard tracks and that is hard to overcome except when you are separating part of your circuit from the breadboard and make it floating.
Oh well, let's see what he can show when he's back. -
...enough to get a stable reading on the 5350B microwave counter.
I'd say that is a valid entry! -
I guess part of the criticism is because he's not showing what he does, we only get to see pictures of part of the circuit. I feel that I'm limited by the length (inductance) and coupling (capacitance) of the breadboard tracks and that is hard to overcome except when you are separating part of your circuit from the breadboard and make it floating.
Oh well, let's see what he can show when he's back.
The parasitics are interacting strongly at those frequencies, though. This is akin to the Tek 184 high frequency multiplier board that has been shown a couple of times...the two inductors whose interaction with one another are crucial to the circuit's operation do not touch! I only achieved what I posted above by extremely subtle tweaks to the geometry above the breadboard. It's highly sensitive! -
...enough to get a stable reading on the 5350B microwave counter.
I'd say that is a valid entry!
I feel pretty good about it too, so I'm going to say that I've broken 1GHz now.
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oculus, give that whole circuit a good blast with cold spray and post results please. ;-)
EDIT: take care not to feed DC into the counter once the condensation kicks in.
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oculus, give that whole circuit a good blast with cold spray and post results please. ;-)
EDIT: take care not to feed DC into the counter once the condensation kicks in.
Yeah, I've got dc blocks and am not connecting anything directly to the circuit. All it did was make the frequency vary wildly, and thecurrent draw went negative on the milliammeterI'm monitoring with for a bit (!).
It has been slowly converging back on the state shown above as it warms back up.
What is the purpose of this?
[edit] There's an intermittent problem with the milliammeter...sigh...repair queue time... -
What is the purpose of this?
You will find that cooling down the FET can give you a frequency boost of up to 25%.
Reducing the temperature will increase the mobility of the charge carriers in the channel of the FET because they get less flak from the other atoms they are passing through.
An analogy: it's easier to run through a crowd when everybody isn't moving. Cooling down the FET lowers thermal noise and atom movement.
The reason why your circuit starts to go fubar is probably the water messing with the parasitics. If you can, just cool the FET ( rig a little cone made from kapton for example).
Edit: before anyone gets triggered, yes, it's quantum mechanics, Boltzmann and Planck at work. Not going to open a can of quantum mechanics here though. :-o -
Oklay...
just happened here...?
I generally tend to agree with Oculus' surmise; ogden has been nit-pick trolling the thread pretty hard, and unless joe is outright lying, he has a history of thread-stalking joe.
Joe's response, while it may have been viscerally cathartic, was def a bit OTT for a public space; it should've been toned down or if the venting was necessary, taken to PM.
But seriously... this is a pretty obvious case of personality-clash oscillation.
Ogden has an established track record as a troll in multiple threads. So no, this is not a personality clash.
He or she prefers the argument over the engineering. Shoulda been a lawyer I guess.
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Please don't quote part of my statement out of context and try to counter it as if the rest doesn't matter. I know EXACTLY what is happening here, I described it in precise detail, and in case you didn't realize, I was saying that BOTH parties needed a time-out, not just joe. If you're suggesting that only ogden needed that, then you're the one practicing law in the wrong bailiwick.
I generally tend to agree with Oculus' surmise; ogden has been nit-pick trolling the thread pretty hard, and unless joe is outright lying, he has a history of thread-stalking joe.
Joe's response, while it may have been viscerally cathartic, was def a bit OTT for a public space; it should've been toned down or if the venting was necessary, taken to PM.
But seriously... this is a pretty obvious case of personality-clash oscillation. This is hardly new territory; we've been dealing with this kind of passive-aggressive back & forth since the days of UseNet and the solution is pretty well-established: BOTH parties are responsible. Not JUST the troll, and not just the one(s) feeding the troll. Either both/all or none should be given a time-out. That is why we call it a time-out: Not a punishment, but forcing all parties to step back and consider their contribution to the NOISE part of the SNR.
All your post above serves is to stir that shit back up again when it has been resolved as well as it's going to be until the parties involved return to this space, and either start it all over again or kiss and make up.
Please, for the sake of those who are here to learn something, let this rest for the duration of the time-out. You're just contributing to the above-mentioned NOISE part of the SNR. And so am I, so I'd really rather not be dragged into another such debate in this technically-oriented space.
Cheers,
mnem
Anybody got any peanuts...? -
In Joe's defense, he has been documenting with videos up until about a week ago...another video featuring the new circuit and demonstrating its construction in detail would be great IMO. But yeah, he has been a bit coy and I think one should definitely at a minimum provide high quality photos and tell us exactly what parts you're using, as I have tried to do with each "thing" I've attempted. There's no reason to hide anything about your circuit here unless you are, in fact, cheating the system outside of the spirit of gentlemanly competition. I say this because I support creative RF design as long as the breadboard is intimately involved. Otherwise I could build my circuits Manhattan style.
Yeah, that's where I was going with my comment; his photos and video show enough to titillate, but either not enough clarity or not the whole picture all at once. I get that he may be playing coy so as to not "spoon-feed" us the answers. I'm down with that to a point. But his documentation definitely skirts the realm of sleight-of-hand.
It seems to me that the entire point of this thread is in a way to do precisely that: maybe not to spoon-feed it to us, but at least to get those who are strong with the μwave voodoo to help us break down this black magic region of electronics into small, digestible chunks so we mere mortals CAN grok in fullness.
mnem
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In any case, I'm putting this project aside till I get some faster parts and some magnet wire in hand. I am now shifting to troubleshooting the Tek 585A I just got...
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Dipping my toe in the 1GHz+ club. No vacuum tubes here, just a good old fashioned 2N5179.
Transistor pins, left to right, are E, B, C (case is the 4th pin, N/C).
Ignore the squiggly wire on the top left, it's out of circuit (should've taken it out of frame..). Power comes in from the left (blue, black), 8V. H-field probe laid over the circuit goes to spec; solder roll used as weight to hold it there. 4.7k and clip leads are just for voltmeter.
Harder to see from this angle is the resonant stub, about 50mm of twisted pair coming straight up from the board. It's very nearly end-on in this view. Plugged into B-C positions.
A molded choke supplies collector voltage, and 10k pullup and 3.3k pulldown supplies base bias. 1k supplies emitter bias, so it runs at about 1.4mA and 7V in total.
No idea what the signal strength is; I shall merely assert that it would be sufficient, given an adequate coupling network. The H-probe is a qualitative measure, after all.
Tim
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Dipping my toe in the 1GHz+ club. [...]
Great job!
Love the ghetto H-probe
Try cooling the tranny with cold spray for turbo boost (see above).
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...and tell us exactly what parts you're using...
Fair enough, here's what I used: http://www.cel.com/pdf/datasheets/ne3210s1.pdfQuoteNEC's NE3210S01 is a pseudomorphic Hetero-Junction FET that uses the junction between Si-doped AIGaAs and undoped InGaAs to create very high mobility electrons. The device features mushroom shaped TiAl gates for decreased gate resistance and improved power handling.
whisper that text to a 68'is hippie, a goa-head or a modern psytrance kid, and he will instantly buy that little pill shaped thing
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Quote
NEC's NE3210S01 is a pseudomorphic Hetero-Junction FET that uses the junction between Si-doped AIGaAs and undoped InGaAs to create very high mobility electrons. The device features mushroom shaped TiAl gates for decreased gate resistance and improved power handling.
whisper that text to a 68'is hippie, a goa-head or a modern psytrance kid, and he will instantly buy that little pill shaped thing
They had me at the Infected Mushroom gates... -
You know what is really overrated in electronics these days? Components. Who really needs them?
All you need for 300MHz is a transistor.
