Author Topic: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball  (Read 62451 times)

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Offline herc

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #300 on: June 27, 2020, 09:04:10 pm »
those transistors are BFR 93A from NXP ( 6 GHz) :  https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/data-sheet/BFR93A.pdf

i wonder how far up the harmonics can go ?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2020, 09:08:45 pm by herc »
 
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Offline 0culus

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #301 on: June 27, 2020, 09:41:20 pm »
I finally received my 38 awg magnet wire and some rather high speed parts from digikey...I'll be experimenting and getting back in the game soon.  :-DMM

Nevermind. The parts are too small for me to solder. Already ruined 5 transistors. Lucky they were dirt cheap. :palm:
 

Offline herc

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #302 on: June 28, 2020, 07:55:11 am »
Nevermind. The parts are too small for me to solder. Already ruined 5 transistors. Lucky they were dirt cheap. :palm:
what did you order ? what size are they ?
i found SOT23 with 1.9mm pin distance is probably the limit for me. i used sticky tape to somehow fix the transistor before soldering.
 

Offline 1uk3

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #303 on: June 28, 2020, 11:55:25 am »
Nevermind. The parts are too small for me to solder. Already ruined 5 transistors. Lucky they were dirt cheap. :palm:

I recently had to solder magnet wire to a 40pin 0.5mm pitch IC (I messed up the footprint  ;))

Just tried the circuit with a pair of BC547 and can't get over 180MHz  ;D
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #304 on: June 28, 2020, 12:33:58 pm »
Nevermind. The parts are too small for me to solder. Already ruined 5 transistors. Lucky they were dirt cheap. :palm:

I recently had to solder magnet wire to a 40pin 0.5mm pitch IC (I messed up the footprint  ;))

Just tried the circuit with a pair of BC547 and can't get over 180MHz  ;D

I once managed to solder wire strands on to an 0.5mm pitch BGA package.   We need a new contest, "Dumbest and most time wasting hand soldering attempt!" :D


 

Offline 0culus

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #305 on: June 28, 2020, 09:13:08 pm »
Nevermind. The parts are too small for me to solder. Already ruined 5 transistors. Lucky they were dirt cheap. :palm:
what did you order ? what size are they ?
i found SOT23 with 1.9mm pin distance is probably the limit for me. i used sticky tape to somehow fix the transistor before soldering.

I ordered both 18 and 22 GHz RF transistors. I forget the package, but they are tiny. I was able to develop a foolproof method of getting the soldering done. The trick is you must do all the legs at the same time or you'll just be fighting the wires fall off as you heat it. These have 4 legs (two are emitters) so I carefully wrapped the magnet wire across two of them and then again after filing off the enamel. This allowed me to get them soldered all at the same time and then snip the bridge. That said, I haven't managed to get anything oscillating yet.
 

Offline mnementh

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #306 on: June 29, 2020, 03:27:23 am »
Nevermind. The parts are too small for me to solder. Already ruined 5 transistors. Lucky they were dirt cheap. :palm:

I recently had to solder magnet wire to a 40pin 0.5mm pitch IC (I messed up the footprint  ;))

Just tried the circuit with a pair of BC547 and can't get over 180MHz  ;D

I once managed to solder wire strands on to an 0.5mm pitch BGA package.   We need a new contest, "Dumbest and most time wasting hand soldering attempt!" :D

Suck what...? That sort of soldering is what I do for FUN...

mnem
 :-/O
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Offline BreakingOhmsLawTopic starter

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #307 on: June 29, 2020, 12:05:17 pm »
Suck what...? That sort of soldering is what I do for FUN...
mnem
 :-/O

If Louis Rossmann ever comes across this thread, he is going to curbstomp all of you  :-DD
 
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Offline TheUnnamedNewbie

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #308 on: June 29, 2020, 03:16:00 pm »
another neat oscillator:

http://www.totalitaer.de/Rftechnik/mikrowellensender2.htm

(Attachment Link)

That's funny, I was just thinking if a multivibrator type circuit could be made to work at RF frequencies...   Looks like the answer is "Yes"! :)

You can use them up to 100's of GHz even, on-chip.
The best part about magic is when it stops being magic and becomes science instead

"There was no road, but the people walked on it, and the road came to be, and the people followed it, for the road took the path of least resistance"
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #309 on: June 29, 2020, 05:00:52 pm »
Nevermind. The parts are too small for me to solder. Already ruined 5 transistors. Lucky they were dirt cheap. :palm:

I recently had to solder magnet wire to a 40pin 0.5mm pitch IC (I messed up the footprint  ;))

Just tried the circuit with a pair of BC547 and can't get over 180MHz  ;D

I once managed to solder wire strands on to an 0.5mm pitch BGA package.   We need a new contest, "Dumbest and most time wasting hand soldering attempt!" :D

Suck what...? That sort of soldering is what I do for FUN...

mnem
 :-/O


0.5mm BGA being soldered to an adaptor.   Would have been easier to get the right adaptor in the first place!  :D

The wires are strands of fine desoldering braid...



« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 05:03:52 pm by SilverSolder »
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #310 on: June 29, 2020, 11:22:18 pm »
While I have no reason to suspect foul play on Joes part, I ask him to provide clear images while running and showing the counter for the sake of fairness.

I believe that Joe is where he is now, because he has shown good knowledge of RF engineering and particularly how to deal with parasitics (thinning wires, shielding etc.)

That said, i have parts on order, and i know i am not the only one. First to dethrone Joe shall be known as the kingslayer from hence forth!

Looking forward to it!     


I've been enjoying this book from George Southworth.  For the few of you who are actually interested in learning something, I recommend it.
https://worldradiohistory.com/BOOKSHELF-ARH/Technology/Fourty-Years-of-Radio-Research-Southworth-1962.pdf
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 11:26:08 pm by joeqsmith »
 
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #311 on: June 30, 2020, 12:49:59 am »
   0.5mm BGA being soldered to an adaptor.   Would have been easier to get the right adaptor in the first place!  :D   The wires are strands of fine desoldering braid...

 :-+   That kind of soldering I do NOT do for fun; I ONLY do it when I'm being well-paid by the hour, NOT flat-rate.  >:D

mnem
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #312 on: June 30, 2020, 01:16:15 am »
   0.5mm BGA being soldered to an adaptor.   Would have been easier to get the right adaptor in the first place!  :D   The wires are strands of fine desoldering braid...

 :-+   That kind of soldering I do NOT do for fun; I ONLY do it when I'm being well-paid by the hour, NOT flat-rate.  >:D

mnem
*tsssssssst...*

Let's just say it was a stretch goal!  :D

I proved it could be done, now I won't need to do it again.  It was an experience similar to building a ship inside a bottle, only worse! :D
 
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Offline 0culus

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #313 on: June 30, 2020, 02:57:20 am »
While I have no reason to suspect foul play on Joes part, I ask him to provide clear images while running and showing the counter for the sake of fairness.

I believe that Joe is where he is now, because he has shown good knowledge of RF engineering and particularly how to deal with parasitics (thinning wires, shielding etc.)

That said, i have parts on order, and i know i am not the only one. First to dethrone Joe shall be known as the kingslayer from hence forth!

Looking forward to it!     


I've been enjoying this book from George Southworth.  For the few of you who are actually interested in learning something, I recommend it.
https://worldradiohistory.com/BOOKSHELF-ARH/Technology/Fourty-Years-of-Radio-Research-Southworth-1962.pdf

Hot damn!! Welcome back Joe...I gotta figure my stuff out...  :-DD

Also, thanks for the book link...I am going to track down a print copy. Fascinating!
 
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Offline BreakingOhmsLawTopic starter

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #314 on: June 30, 2020, 11:14:42 pm »
Thank you Joe for that very detailed video. Record updated, nice work!
If you go any higher, some 3-letter agency is going to kick your door down and drag you off to groom lake for questioning where you got the alien technology from.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #315 on: July 01, 2020, 12:04:13 am »
While I have no reason to suspect foul play on Joes part, I ask him to provide clear images while running and showing the counter for the sake of fairness.

I believe that Joe is where he is now, because he has shown good knowledge of RF engineering and particularly how to deal with parasitics (thinning wires, shielding etc.)

That said, i have parts on order, and i know i am not the only one. First to dethrone Joe shall be known as the kingslayer from hence forth!

Looking forward to it!     


I've been enjoying this book from George Southworth.  For the few of you who are actually interested in learning something, I recommend it.
https://worldradiohistory.com/BOOKSHELF-ARH/Technology/Fourty-Years-of-Radio-Research-Southworth-1962.pdf

LOL!  8)

Congratulations on the craziest electronics project to grace the EEVblog forum pages for a while!  :D
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #316 on: July 01, 2020, 12:57:24 am »
Thank you Joe for that very detailed video. Record updated, nice work!
If you go any higher, some 3-letter agency is going to kick your door down and drag you off to groom lake for questioning where you got the alien technology from.

I would hate you to go away thinking that the 25.0GHz was some glitch and not worthy of the record holder, so I have attached a short clip of it running.   25 has a nice ring to it.       

Also attached is a picture is showing the the final version of the tuning network.  I changed from epoxy to crazy glue for the quick cure times. The smaller wire to get to these higher frequencies.  I mentioned the wires were about the size of my whiskers, so I have sacrificed one for this picture.

I would imagine anyone with decent equipment could set a new record by just replicating what I have shown.



Offline herc

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #317 on: July 01, 2020, 05:25:36 am »

You can use them up to 100's of GHz even, on-chip.

very interesting! do they indeed use the same directly coupled transistor multivibrator on chip ? do you have some more links / information ?

 

Offline BreakingOhmsLawTopic starter

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #318 on: July 01, 2020, 08:07:38 am »
I mentioned the wires were about the size of my whiskers, so I have sacrificed one for this picture.
:-+

 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #319 on: July 01, 2020, 01:38:18 pm »
Quote from: 0culus
Nice job getting to 25 GHz...did you have to hack your counter to get that to work?
I wanted to address your PM in public in case someone else has the same question.   

I have not modified my HP5342A.  It appears no options are installed.  I have no idea what signal level is required for for this particular counter to lock at 25GHz. 

You and a few other's have commented about my not disclosing full details and there seems to be a question on my cheating. 
Quote

There's no reason to hide anything about your circuit here unless you are, in fact, cheating the system outside of the spirit of gentlemanly competition.

Quote

.... He simply has not given reasonable proof that his actual circuits ARE what he claims they are.

While you may feel you "need" to more information, there are no rules requiring a documented bill of materials.   It is a competition to see how the few of us entering, measure up against our peers.  It's not to teach Dick and Jane how to get their dog Spot to oscillate.    Akin to a friendly game of football, we don't normally hand out the play books at the end of a season.   It's the OP's competition and I will leave it to them to determine if I have supplied adequate proof of my claims.   

Personally, I have no interest in being a parrot.  It requires no skills or innovation to surpass what I've shown, just better equipment, deeper pockets.  Mind you, I am not claiming that a simple feedback network is a innovative.  For those who would like to just copy what I have shown, here are a few additional clues that may help. 

I changed wire sizes. While I stated I was 38AWG Beldin magnet wire, if you are rushing out to buy the same wire I used, you may want to order various spools of smallest you can find.   

While I mentioned I bought the parts from Digikey, be aware I have procured four different transistors and have shown three of them.  Shaving down the leads may help.   
   
The wire lengths and position are critical.   Without a way to manipulate the wires, I doubt I would see these numbers. 

From the video, you can see that the coax was a problem.   I suspect I could achieve a small amount of gain by connecting the oscillator directly to the counter to remove the return loss of all these connectors.  With better equipment you shouldn't need to use the semi-ridged as I have shown.  The counter is so far outside it's specified operating region, I'm guessing it is just not sensitive enough. 

Good luck. 

Offline herc

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #320 on: July 01, 2020, 05:13:50 pm »
I need some help here understanding why this circuit - a very simple RF Sniffer - works:

https://www.instructables.com/id/VHF-UHF-RF-Sniffer/
(image and circuit CC by simpletronic)

question 1)
so ok, the HF Transistor amplifies whatever RF its seeing at its input. Then, at the collector, there is an amplified RF signal.
now, the LED starts to light up. But why ? shouldnt the (supposedly) large internal capacitance of the LED shortcut and bypass the AC current ?

question 2)
how much would the upper cutoff frequency be impacted / reduced if i use two HF Transistors in a darlington setup ?

i have a darlington setup on breadboard (6 GHz Transistors). it easily detects 2G signals from my smartphone ( around 900 MHz) but fails to detect the higher LTE / 3G freqencies.

it is probably limited by the breadboard capacitances but i still marvel about the internal LED capacitances and [if | how ] that limits the upper detectable frequency.

if built on double sided PCB in manhattan style, it seems to be able to pick up Microwave leakage from a microwave ofen:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/5ppH2XjC3zM?feature=oembed
(video by simpletronic)


« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 05:32:19 pm by herc »
 

Offline mnementh

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #321 on: July 01, 2020, 07:08:18 pm »
Oklay...  :wtf: just happened here...? ....  Okay... I'm going to go back to lurking and tossing peanut shells now; this "being the voice of reason" thing is quite taxing.  :palm:

Not having a skin in the game, I am not sure why you feel you need to be the voice of reason.   It's not your childhood playground and we have no need for a hall monitor.   Its a friendly competition.  I suggest you join the fun and build something if your want to contribute.

Joe, I've already stated I have neither the chops nor the desire to attempt to dethrone you.  :D

If you can't handle a little friendly ribbing and an honest request for more detail, that's not my problem. That friendly request WAS pretty clearly defined in what you chose to leave out when you quoted part of my statement out of context. ;)

That said, I DO have skin in the game, just the same as everyone who bothers to tune in; the time I spend here looking at what is produced. In the spirit of friendly competition, I didn't feel it unreasonable to expect to actually be able to SEE your circuit. Being a civil voice for those others who just wanted to see is the only contribution I COULD make, so I did my best.

Thank you for taking the time to make a "Gizza-ma-hertz for Dummies" type video so we could play along at home; it was a lot more than the "pictures of the entire circuit rendered clearly" I was asking for.

Cheers,

mnem
 :popcorn:
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 08:53:43 pm by mnementh »
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #322 on: July 02, 2020, 04:13:18 pm »
Just because you were being trolled by ogden, don't assume I am.

I was NOT stirring, I was asking the OP to make a judgement as to whether you had produced a single decently-detailed pic of your entire circuit. My personal opinion is that you still haven't; but that's just MY opinion. :-//

THIS is what Simon was talking about when he said you were feeding the trolls... I'm not trolling, so I'm not gonna bite.

Cheers,

mnem
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #323 on: July 02, 2020, 05:31:12 pm »
Just because you were being trolled by ogden, don't assume I am.

I was NOT stirring, I was asking the OP to make a judgement as to whether you had produced a single decently-detailed pic of your entire circuit. My personal opinion is that you still haven't; but that's just MY opinion. :-//

THIS is what Simon was talking about when he said you were feeding the trolls... I'm not trolling, so I'm not gonna bite.

Cheers,

mnem
 :popcorn:

Odd you would feel you could make such a bold statement about my not providing proof of my claims but then not want to discuss it.    You call your actions friendly ribbing, civil and claim to be the voice of reason but seem to want to involve the admins when I defend my posts.

I have added Ogden to my block list and will include you as it's obvious what your goals are for being here.       

Offline mnementh

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Re: Challenge Thread: The fastest breadboard oscillator on the mudball
« Reply #324 on: July 02, 2020, 06:32:10 pm »
Yup. I'm obviously... asking for a single decently-detailed pic of your entire circuit. I can see how that is so inflammatory.

mnem
 :popcorn:
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