Author Topic: Crystal Oscilator Circuit Problems  (Read 18766 times)

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Offline floobydust

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Re: Crystal Oscilator Circuit Problems
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2021, 02:57:57 am »
It's misleading that it worked on a breadboard with different (through-hole) parts - the IC, crystal, caps. Everything has been changed, so back to square #1.
Maybe post pics of your PCB layout we can look for issues there.
A breadboard's parasitic capacitance, I measure 3pF between two strips and higher if mounted on a metal plate or workbench. Also the high hum and noise, common-mode depending on if the power supply was earth-grounded, can help a weak oscillator start up. Physically smaller crystals have higher ESR as well.

Strange HEF4060B datasheet, it doesn't have Q14 on pin 3, or the tri-state on the gate. Sometimes SMT packaged IC's are different than their through-hole version.

Lots of posts on the web using CD4060 for nixie clocks and such https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/32-768khz-pierce-crystal-oscillator-for-nixie-clock/ as well.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Crystal Oscilator Circuit Problems
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2021, 04:14:29 am »
The capacitors could easily be off by an order of magnitude or more and still be well below what you can measure with something like a multimeter. It's not unheard of for something like that to happen, last year I had to debug some prototypes built by a company and I found several capacitors that were way off, like 1uF where it should have had 15pf caps on the clock crystal.
 

Offline sarahMCML

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Re: Crystal Oscilator Circuit Problems
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2021, 01:52:37 am »
For some strange reason, the HEF4060B datasheet mark's each flipflop's output 1 less than than the value of the latch it's actually connected to. Weird!
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Crystal Oscilator Circuit Problems
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2021, 02:07:21 am »
The flipflops are numbered starting from 1. The outputs are numbered starting from 0, as is convention.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Crystal Oscilator Circuit Problems
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2021, 03:07:34 am »
CD4060B TI/RCA/Harris and NS datasheet Q4-Q10, Q12-Q14.
NXP HEF4060B datasheet Q3-Q9, Q11-Q13. Just pointing out the different numbering convention, which is annoying.
NXP also includes this graph for the osc. amp transconductance, VDD affects it almost 3:1.
 

Offline bson

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Re: Crystal Oscilator Circuit Problems
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2021, 09:23:36 pm »
One thing to keep in mind with small, extremely low-power SMD crystals is that flux bridges between the pads can be source of trouble.

Don't ask how I know.  ::)

 

Offline Benta

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Re: Crystal Oscilator Circuit Problems
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2021, 10:16:37 pm »
I would say good luck getting it to start with the series resistance value you recommend 1MEG  :-//

How about grabbing a simple calculator and compute what 0.1 uW results in as series resistance at the voltages involved? THEN you can come back with your smirking "smiley".
You've obviously never worked with these kind of crystals before.

« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 10:19:05 pm by Benta »
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Crystal Oscilator Circuit Problems
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2021, 12:18:06 am »
Sorry we're not all masters like yourself. 1MEG with say 10pF load seems excessive  :-// over industrial temperatures it would have to be a precise design.
Majority of these oscillators are datasheet copies, to dig in is very difficult. I have designed these oscillators too but the problem as I have mentioned the Observer effect makes measurements nearly impossible, unless a low cap JFET probe or inductive pickup which watchmakers use to calibrate frequency. LT Spice simulations are not useful either because the parasitic capacitances are not really known nor the crystal's SPICE model. There is always empirical work I find, and I run out of project time and patience.
One product's 32kHz oscillator refused to startup around 5°C but colder or warmer by a few degrees it would reliably start, it was awful.
 


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