Author Topic: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea  (Read 34198 times)

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Offline Trigger

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2011, 03:32:16 pm »
Thanks, didn't know about that one, will check it out.
I was going to go with the ArduCopter, as it seems to have the most support out there?

Dave.

If you're going the remote control route that'll be perfect.

I'd be interested to try one of those PIC32 Arduino compatible boards.  You could strap your flying pig to it  ;D
 

Offline philbx1

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2011, 09:40:01 am »
Now this is an interesting subject which I've thought about for a while now.

What if the balloon wasn't spherical but more a foldable 'flat-pack'?

Maybe we could come up with a low profile balloon to solve the problem of
side winds, although I guess there are not many air currents (especially in canyons)
which are predominately on the horizontal plane.

That pretty much discounts my idea. Maybe I'm wrong...
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2011, 12:38:17 pm »
I'm pretty sure the blimp idea won't work.
Apart from the size required to lift a decent camera(s) + control gear, the winds (draft?) can be all over the shop due to the dynamic twisting and turning nature of the canyon.
Often it is just dead still, but if the winds do pick up, then forget it. Especially at the end of the canyon where it may open into a valley, it can get very windy there.

Dave.
 

Offline djsb

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2011, 09:46:04 am »
Pity you can't just fly a camera equipped bird through the canyon, at least as a first step (do you know of any hawk/falcon handlers-Or a friendly wildlife cameraperson). Then you'd have some idea of what to expect. I know, the whole challenge is in building a contraption and flying it through under your own control. Camera's that fit on birds are surely light enough!
Just a thought.

David.

P.S Take a look at this

« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 09:51:54 am by djsb »
David
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University Electronics Technician, London, PIC16/18, CCS PCM C, Arduino UNO, NANO,ESP32, KiCad V8+, Altium Designer 21.4.1, Alibre Design Expert 28 & FreeCAD beginner. LPKF S103,S62 PCB router Operator, Electronics instructor. Credited KiCad French to English translator
 

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2011, 10:25:18 pm »
 

Offline RCMR

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2011, 11:17:54 pm »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2011, 12:09:50 am »
I've seen 6 rotors carry a DSLR, so that's good enough for me!
Is 8 rotors potentially more stable than 6 rotors I wonder?

Dave.
 

Offline kaptain_zero

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2011, 01:32:29 am »
Here's a video of a 6 motor unit running with 5 props.... seems it's capable of good stability!

http://www.rcmovie.de/video/6773c9932fa54a952bb5/Q4-Y6-500-Testflug-mit-5-Props-statt-6
 

Offline shadowless

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2011, 03:39:32 am »
Flight time will you the main issue. How long do you plan to fly it?  Lipo powered? Check out eagletree for FPV ideas.

U can consider a small gilder to take advantage of thermal.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2011, 04:05:16 am »
Flight time will you the main issue. How long do you plan to fly it?  Lipo powered? Check out eagletree for FPV ideas.

Canyons slots are typically a few hundred meters long at best, so only a few minutes flight time are needed for one stretch, maybe 10min tops.
A bigger worry will be the remote area and recharging within the canyon.

[quote
U can consider a small gilder to take advantage of thermal.
[/quote]

Might be a tad hard to navigate a glider through a canyon slot a few meters wide that twists and turns. Our slot canyons ain't like the Grand Canyon!

Dave.
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2011, 02:21:35 am »
If you want to control the speed on every single motor, maybe lowering the RPM  on certain motors is better than increasing it on the opposite motor. If a motor halts, this control will halt the motor on the oposite sidde, effectively balancing the copter. If there is more weight in the bottom of the copter, there's a good chance it will just descent rapidly to the ground, but in a stable way and with the floats down and all the equipment in place.

Ivan
 

Offline kaptain_zero

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2011, 03:08:51 am »
Run one quad copter as the repeater, fpv style, keeping view of the canyon. Second FPV quad copter can now be controlled via the repeater in the first quad copter and fly up and down the canyon as required. Better yet, a flying wing powered glider (compact size) would be able to circle around, using much less energy, while still being able to carry the repeater payload. FPV on the repeater may not be necessary, it only needs to be "line of sight" with the quad in the canyon, distance isn't a big issue in such a case. Quads fly great, but they are power hungry.
 
If you're planning on charging batteries.... bring lots of big solar cells, or be prepared to lug a gasoline powered generator around.  Then again, more battery packs might just be lighter, easier and cheaper!

Plan B: Why not find a different hobby? I hear electronics engineering is fun, if you do a video blog about it?!?!   ;D

Regards

Kaptain "Tongue firmly in cheek" Zero

 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2011, 05:58:49 am »
Run one quad copter as the repeater, fpv style, keeping view of the canyon. Second FPV quad copter can now be controlled via the repeater in the first quad copter and fly up and down the canyon as required. Better yet, a flying wing powered glider (compact size) would be able to circle around, using much less energy, while still being able to carry the repeater payload. FPV on the repeater may not be necessary, it only needs to be "line of sight" with the quad in the canyon, distance isn't a big issue in such a case. Quads fly great, but they are power hungry.

Our slot canyons are sometimes only several meters wide, and up to 50m or so tall, and often close in like a cave. So I doubt a repeater above would work, even if it was spot on above.
We have trouble using 0.5W UHF walkie talkies from the top of the slot to the bottom.

Dave.
 

Offline Nerobro

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2011, 06:24:27 am »
To bring some discussion off of twitter.

Frist, Dave, good on actually getting the airframe in.  :-)  I can't wait to see what you do with it. 

Second, lets discuss N-rotor versus penny farthing or even coaxial helicopters.  I'm just going to call them quad rotors instead of N-rotors for now.   The only reason for more rotors is for more power, and if you've got good software, you might even see redundancy.

Here's how I see it.  Quad rotors were made because, more or less, they could.  The concept was tried at the start of the helicopters development, and discarded.  It was even revisited again in the 60's and discarded.  ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piasecki_PA-97 )

I am going to start with what I see as advantages with Quad Rotors.  First, quad rotors have only four moving parts.  They usually have brushless so your prop is directly attached to the outrunner frame.  They have no pivot points.  They are pretty simple.  A frame could be as simple as two paint stirrers. 

I see simple as good.  Very good.  But simple to control, I think trumps that.  We'll get back to that

Now quadrotors are completely unflyable.  At least by people.  They are utterly dependent on a multi axis gyro, and a fast acting microprocessor to stay in flight.  The "stability" comes entirely from the fact you've got a microprocessor or four going nutty trying to keep the thing airbore.  In todays electronic world, it's not a crippling thing.  But you also are completely out of luck if anything goes wrong.  I know of a couple people who have issues with the outrunner style motors losing sync.  When a brushless motor unstarts, the CPU doesn't know about it.  Then the helicopter crashes. 

Okey, so we know we have mostly reliable electronics.  And sensored motors fixes the unstart issues.  Woo!  What about the airframe itself, and power-train choices.  To talk about that we'll need to discuss the comparison between the aircraft. 

A quadrotor has four, high speed propellers.  This is not a very efficient method of moving air.  You've got tiny little wings, moving very quickly.  Each propeller tip making it's own little wake and wasting energy.  Shorter propellers have more losses due to vorticies, and I can't imagine the interaction between the propellers does it any good either.  The "thump thump thump" you hear from a real helicopter is the interaction between the rotor wash and the tail rotor wash! 

With a quad rotor, you're blowing on the frame with every propeller.  And you've got the frame up close behind the rotor, which doesn't help the aerodynamics of the blade itself.  Also the motors are fairly large, causing large dead space at the center of each rotor.  (it's the least effective part of the prop, but it's worth mentioning)  You also need to consider the downwash of the whole plane is going to interact with the chassis in the middle.  As you can see with the dyson air multipliers, the effects of airflow aren't very well constrained to the path of the prop.   You've got the huge, unfaired, chassis in the way of your downwash. 

So that's a problem that can be taken care of with horsepower.  Horsepower means bigger motors, bigger batteries, bigger speed controls.  Big horsepower means fast response too.  ;-)  So there are some upsides to flying with the "big stick" method. 

A penny farthing (read: conventional) helicopter, while still a brutal machine, is much less a "club the air into submission" vehicle.  Now, the rotor head of a helicopter is pretty complex.  At minimum you need hinges on the blades, and a way of controlling pitch and roll.  You'll also want collective.  (provided you want the full aerobatic capabilities of a quadrotor...) Which is a third servo. 

Now, here's a video from six years ago:

That was state of the art then.  That heli would carry anything you'd ask it to.  And there are lots of electric models that are just as capable now.  The advantage i see with using servos, is that they self recover, and require little power to operate.  While a quadrotor needs lots of surge power available to make it's rotor speed adjustments.  Servos also tend to fail in a progressive manner.  They start to glitch long before they completely fail.  The heli will still fly with glitching servos!  (this is experience talking *grins*) 

So the helicopter can be flown by a human, with human response times.  And can fly in amazing directions, I'll even venture to say it's agile enough to keep up with those silly princeton quadrotors.  Because they're somewhat stable they also make decent camera platforms.  Even without computers handling everything. 

Conventional helicopters are also available in a wide range of sizes to accommodate almost any payload.  Way back when, it was common for film crews to have a man on call with a .90 size heli so they could fly cameras into unusual places.  If you watch old tv shows on special effects, you'll see someone with a r/c heli. 

http://www.diyphotography.net/introduction-to-radio-controlled-helicopter-aerial-photography  here's a fairly recent article on the subject.  Evidently an eflite 400 is capable of carrying a significant camera aloft.  (I own an eflite MCX, a Novus FP, and some larger 280 sized chinese heli)

Conventional helicopters also only have two rotors to mess about with.  The main rotor has long blades with high aspect ratios providing smaller tip vorticies.  You also have only one big motor to power, which means a savings in speed control weight.  On most medium to large helicopters the tail rotor is powered off the main rotor, meaning that the tail rotor cant' lose control so long as the gearbox stays intact. 

The bodies on conventional helicopters are narrow, and usually have a fairing, providing an aerodynamic advantage over quadrotors.  The tails are frequently smaller than the support struts on a quadrotor, and are tubular, so should have less drag as well.  This means you can carry a greater payload, and use a smaller powerplant to do it.  Also it means a given battery will take you further. 

I suppose I could have taken this rant down to "well in the 80's they did it with conventional helis, the quadrotors are a new thing" and been done with it.  :-) 

I will say, quadrotors are neat. 

Now, for flying down a canyon, I think a single rotor has a big advantage.  You only need one frame to protect the rotor from the canyon walls, and typically the rotor blades are hinged, so brushing against something may not be a critical failure.  (I do that with my helis all the time...) 

I can't wait to see how your project turns out dave!
 

Offline sonicj

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2011, 07:04:21 am »
have you seen the stuff put out by trappy & team blacksheep? high speed, long range, low altitude, HD, fun stuff.

*edit - doh! RCMR already posted this one on the first page. anywho, heres his vimeo channel.

another guy you might be interested in checking out is peter glukhov, aka fmkit. he does long range, dare devil type fpv with hacked up wii controllers and cheap FRS radios.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 10:41:57 am by sonicj »
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2011, 08:21:09 am »
I don't know much about  the aerodynamic stuff but it seems to me that a potential advantage of a quad is  that all your motors are actually providing power, whearas on a conventional heli some are just actuators not contributing to lift. I can see that having to use high speed has issues, as well as having to use a wide range of speeds means the motors & props will often be operating outside their optimal speed range. I wonder if there is any mileage in a quad with 2 big and 2 small motors, the big ones for thrust and the small for stabilisation - the different time constants may be fun to compensate for though...

I think the main reason that quads are popular is that the lack of moving parts makes them cheap to make in smaller quantities due to much fewer parts to tool up for. Not to mention they look unusual and hence inherently cool.

For a video platform it seems to me that a platfom which is inherently stable is better than one that is dynamically stabilised, as the latter has to move in order for the gyro to detect the movement and correct it.   
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Offline sonicj

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2011, 10:32:03 am »
I don't know much about  the aerodynamic stuff but it seems to me that a potential advantage of a quad is  that all your motors are actually providing power, whearas on a conventional heli some are just actuators not contributing to lift.
the servos pull very little current when compared to the main motor. for instance, the servos on my 450 pull around .5A each at full load while my main motor pulls around 14 amps at hover and can pull as high as 45 or so under full load. there are efficiency differences between the motors in the servos vs the large BL motors, but with the servo consumption being so comparatively low, wouldn't let that be the deciding factor in airframe choice.

I can see that having to use high speed has issues, as well as having to use a wide range of speeds means the motors & props will often be operating outside their optimal speed range. I wonder if there is any mileage in a quad with 2 big and 2 small motors, the big ones for thrust and the small for stabilisation - the different time constants may be fun to compensate for though...
lookup the sikorsky x2. fastest helicopter on the planet. coaxial rotors for lift, prop driven thrust. biggest leap in heli technology in like 50 years.

I think the main reason that quads are popular is that the lack of moving parts makes them cheap to make in smaller quantities due to much fewer parts to tool up for. Not to mention they look unusual and hence inherently cool.
its not really a cost thing... 450 heli's are cheap! (well.. some, not all)  personally, i think the popularity is due to the instant gratification factor. its MUCH easier/faster to get in the air with a quad than it is with a CCPM helicopter. setup and maintenance is alot easier as well. CCPM has a very steep (expensive) learning curve. the quads are cool looking!

For a video platform it seems to me that a platfom which is inherently stable is better than one that is dynamically stabilised, as the latter has to move in order for the gyro to detect the movement and correct it.
they are pretty much the same in this regard. with the traditional helicopter, the tail rotor pitch is mechanically trimmed to counteract the torque in the direction of rotation of the main blades. a gyro is used to sense drift and compensate via the tail servo. on a quadcopter, a yaw gyro is also required to keep the heli in a heading hold orientation but instead of adjusting a servo, the computer changes the pulse width to the motors.
(except for some tri-copters. shrediquette for example) both are VERY fast and imperceivable if properly setup. the quads do have a gyroscopic advantage with the counter rotating blades.

both will suffer from vibration issues if rotating parts are not precisely balanced.
-sj
 

Offline Nerobro

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2011, 02:57:01 am »
Coaxials and quadrotors have an advantage over single rotor craft.   As your airspeed goes up, you start having "leading/retreating" blade issues.  The blade going forward has higher airspeed, the retreating is lower. 

A rigid hub coaxial solves the issue handily.  quadrotors are by definition rigid hub.

 

Offline sonicj

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2011, 06:53:35 am »
Coaxials and quadrotors have an advantage over single rotor craft.   As your airspeed goes up, you start having "leading/retreating" blade issues.  The blade going forward has higher airspeed, the retreating is lower. 

A rigid hub coaxial solves the issue handily.  quadrotors are by definition rigid hub.
the phenomenon is called dissymmetry of lift. rc helicopters have dampers in the head block to help compensate. the effect is tunable by changing the damper material &/or durometer. blade flex is another tunable parameter that affects dissymmetry. also, this is purpose for leaving the blades slightly loose in the grips; the blades are free to lead/lag as needed.

a well tuned heli should experience no noticeable ill effects of dissymmetry of lift.
-sj
 

Offline Nerobro

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2011, 07:09:02 pm »
For any reasonable airspeed that is.  :-)  And we can define reasonable as less than 100mph. 
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2011, 09:34:56 pm »
For any reasonable airspeed that is.  :-)  And we can define reasonable as less than 100mph.

We only need 5kmh or so :->

Dave.
 

Offline Nerobro

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2011, 10:09:55 pm »
So dave, what electronics package are you using?  What airframe?

I am going to try to measure the lift capability of my helis tonight. 
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2011, 11:58:21 pm »
Something else that may be worth considering - if you were to record all the gyro/acceleromoeter data alongside the video (maybe use the audio track),  this data could be helpful in correcting any motion semi-automatically in post-production.
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Offline sonicj

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2011, 01:58:33 am »
For any reasonable airspeed that is.  :-)  And we can define reasonable as less than 100mph.
indeed. i actually had a comment about VNE (velocity never exceed) typed out, but deleted it prior to posting for the sake of simplicity. so yea... don't fly too fast in a helicopter.   :D
-sj
 

Offline Zad

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Re: Dave's Canyon Quadcopter Idea
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2011, 03:16:17 am »
Does the multi-rotor benefit from translational lift? I would imagine those helis with shrouded rotors don't, and will have to work harder. With conventional rotors, any forwards motion considerably reduces the engine power needed. Using a separate propeller for thrust or anti-torque is nothing new. The Rotodyne had 2 conventional turboprop engines and vented compressed air through rotor tips.



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