Author Topic: Design a better inverter- win a million bucks!  (Read 42561 times)

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Offline johansen

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Re: Design a better inverter- win a million bucks!
« Reply #100 on: November 27, 2015, 07:17:35 pm »
i still don't understand why google wants a really expensive solution to solve the 120 hz ripple problem..

when you can simply make a three phase inverter.

 :popcorn:
 


Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Design a better inverter- win a million bucks!
« Reply #102 on: November 29, 2015, 09:13:36 am »
i still don't understand why google wants a really expensive solution to solve the 120 hz ripple problem..

when you can simply make a three phase inverter.

 :popcorn:

I'm surprised you didn't suggest 400Hz instead.  Hey, it's a perfectly legitimate mains frequency... for some things...

(Suggesting 3ph of course just shifts it up to 360Hz. :) Albeit at more like 20% ripple, not 100%, so I'm not being quite fair with the joke.)

Tim
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Design a better inverter- win a million bucks!
« Reply #103 on: November 29, 2015, 09:45:39 am »

https://www.pes.ee.ethz.ch/uploads/tx_ethpublications/Keynote_Presentation_ITELEC_15_FINALFINAL_as_published_251015.pdf
Do you have something like that from any other teams?

I never put together a prototype unfortunately, but I enjoyed the analysis a bit:
http://seventransistorlabs.com/Images/Proposal_2014-07-26.pdf
I didn't think it would be very much worthwhile to use different semiconductors (which were all but unavailable at the time -- and over a year later, are still hardly to be found!), the semiconductors being a vanishingly small part of the package (< 5%), even if you have to do crazy things with them to get the efficiency (multi level inverter perhaps?).

Naturally, I was having some trouble getting a simulation to show reasonable results.  I tried a number of approaches, e.g.
http://seventransistorlabs.com/Images/Simulation_Screenshot1.png
from which I discovered some glaring discrepancies in the models (it's rather hard to get 45 +/- 15W dissipation out of 2000W of power, when the effect of your models' errors is not like 1%, but 40%!).  The general plan would've been ZVS with "too-small" filter inductors.  Of course, this puts a large burden on the inductors, which need to be rather beefy, and extremely low loss.

ZVS is basically the only possibility for silicon.  You need enough semiconductor to get conduction loss at least low enough to work (e.g., 70A transistors for a 7A load), and then you have to deal with the rather massive junction capacitance (which accounts for upwards of 100W, if it has to be charged dissipatively via hard switching or snubbers).

As for filtering, I find it interesting that the above review shows the ripple module taking up almost as much space as capacitors, anyway.  Their capacitor multiplier (in effect) is rather sizable, more than doubling the volume of their capacitors alone.  This is about what I expected.  It might end up strictly smaller than using electrolytics, but the advantage for all that added effort is very, very slim.

I didn't know of those TDK ceramic link capacitors at the time, so I didn't have them tabulated.  Anyway, it seems like C0G get better energy density anyway (and hell, about the same cost, considering they spent some $5k on capacitors in that damned thing!).  But you still have to deal with it, which is a real stinker.

Another analytical oddity that may be of use: minimal volume filter designs.  As filter order goes up, attenuation goes up, so the cutoff frequency can be closer to the attenuation limit (i.e., the frequency where attenuation must be e.g. 60dB).  As order goes up, the number of components goes up (which means more energy storage), but as frequency goes up, the size of components goes down (which means less).  I derived the formula assuming asymptotic behavior, which should be okay for modest filter designs (Butterworth to 1dB Chebyshev, say) and high attenuation (>40dB?).  The ratio of cutoff to limit frequency, for this condition, is actually dependent on the desired attenuation only.

(Another aspect of minimum volume design would be relative component size.  Inductors and capacitors don't carry the same energy densities.  The ratio of L/C corresponds to filter impedance, so you will have the function of combined volume versus impedance, with a more or less parabolic curve, having a minima somewhere.)

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
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Online Phoenix

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Re: Design a better inverter- win a million bucks!
« Reply #104 on: November 30, 2015, 12:17:45 pm »
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Design a better inverter- win a million bucks!
« Reply #105 on: November 30, 2015, 07:43:22 pm »
I wonder if it meets the input ripple current requirement.
 

Offline lukaq

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Offline nano

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Re: Design a better inverter- win a million bucks!
« Reply #108 on: March 03, 2016, 07:37:11 pm »
The winners were announced some days ago:
https://www.littleboxchallenge.com/
http://googleresearch.blogspot.de/2016/02/and-winner-of-1-million-little-box.html

Looks like only three submissions survived the final test.
 

Offline philouvb

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Re: Design a better inverter- win a million bucks!
« Reply #109 on: March 04, 2016, 05:40:36 am »
I'am impressed . Winner has reached 145W/in3. I 've read their technical approach wich is interesting ! I think one of the  most difficult part is the way to handle properly ZVS of the GaN !
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Design a better inverter- win a million bucks!
« Reply #110 on: March 04, 2016, 05:56:06 am »
I wonder how close the finalists were to each other? There seems to be so much common ground between their approaches, it looks like it came down to the one with the slightly more polished solution.
 

Offline dwpatter53

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Re: Design a better inverter- win a million bucks!
« Reply #111 on: March 04, 2016, 06:25:46 am »
With the exponential growth of solar PV; more powerful and efficient inverters are required.

All that solar PV DC energy has to be tied to the AC power grid.
Dave P.Eng. BScEE
Super Control Engineer retired
 

Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

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Re: Design a better inverter- win a million bucks!
« Reply #112 on: March 04, 2016, 08:34:39 am »
How awesome is that? 3 times the density required.

I hope the team gets to keep the million. Though they probably did it on company time.



 

Offline jmole

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Re: Design a better inverter- win a million bucks!
« Reply #113 on: March 05, 2016, 07:12:17 am »
WOW, talk about destroying the competition... electrical devils indeed...

 

Offline dom0

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Re: Design a better inverter- win a million bucks!
« Reply #114 on: March 05, 2016, 06:24:32 pm »
Fraunhofer got the highest power density, I think, with 12.27 W/cm³ (= 201 W/in³) and a space of just 10 in³. So basically four times the power density required... o_O

// it appears CET won because they had a higher power density, coupled with very good reliability in the 100 hour test.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 06:32:30 pm by dom0 »
,
 

Offline philouvb

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Re: Design a better inverter- win a million bucks!
« Reply #115 on: March 06, 2016, 07:49:49 am »
It seems that this chalenge is all about balance between power density and reliability ! I personally think that the winner team found the right one !
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 08:05:07 am by philouvb »
 

Offline MattHollands

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Re: Design a better inverter- win a million bucks!
« Reply #116 on: March 06, 2016, 03:23:11 pm »
A guy leading a team in the competition came in to speak to us at MIT the other day. Really interesting talk. They managed to get ~216W/cubic inch, but their inrush-limiting stuff failed in testing because Google changed the starting sequence from what they originally specified *apparently*.

Got to hold the thing and it was super impressive. Using a 7 stage flying capacitor inverter.
Read about my stuff at: projects.matthollands.com
 


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