Disappointed In Rigol Service

[ejeffrey]

They are just doing business.

This is one of the reasons why Keysight, Keithley, R&S... etc gear costs more. Its not just the build quality but also the support they offer for there costumers. Just because they offer such a generous service does not mean that all test equipment manufacturers do.

This is the same sort of support you might get for a Sony TV.

Not necessarily.  I had a keysight 4000X series oscilloscope fail literally 1 week out of warranty.  Our service rep said they would handle it under warranty (we buy a lot of stuff from them).  They wanted to use this to sell us extended warranties on all our equipment.  But after getting it back for service, the warranty department billed us anyway because they determined the failure was the power supply whish is not covered under warranty -- which is crazy! the power supply is the part that is going to fail.  So we didn't buy the extended warranties.

[DC1MC]

I did years of corporate electronics repair, one problem is ascertaining if the failure was due to user error/abuse, or a bonafide product failure or an inherent design flaw.

Very few disputes, and if a customer was adamant I would almost always give them warranty/no charge even ~10% past their warranty expiry date.

I remember a repair claimed "warranty" and I took the unit apart and a small dead fish inside. The guy had dropped it off his boat, dried it out and expected a free repair. That did not happen.

But overall, Rigol are taking their name to mean they are disposable products, not a serious T&M investment.

They should at least offer mechanical parts to repair their products, as knobs, switches, rotary encoders etc. have no "technology" and these things get broken or wear out.

Hold on a second, Rigol Canada/US doesen't offer spare parts ? Rigol Germany offers everything, from the knobs and front sticker, to the mainboard and power supply. Is it due to EU consumers laws ?
Of course, not at component level: "Want the third switch from the left on the top row...", but on assembly/consumable level there is no problem.

 DC1MC

[Nominal Animal]

What are you talking about?

Planned obsolescence, with the cheapest parts giving up the ghost first, so that the companies can make maximum short term profit on repairs with a flat rate, because they are required to make the maximum profit in the short term.

Paul Price had DS4000 fail few weeks before warranty expired, he contacted Rigol and then they said "No problem we'll fix it for free, it's in warranty. And please hurry up because you have only few weeks left."

And if he did that, he would be several weeks without a tool.

Do you have a car? If there is a problem with it, known to be covered under the manufacturers warranty (some sort of known defect), I assume you'll have it towed to the manufacturers designated mechanic on your own expense, and then wait for weeks for it to be fixed, and rent a car for your own use for the duration, and be happy with the warranty service? Right.

So Rigol have to give you better service than Keysight and than do it for free?

Huh?  Did you even read what I wrote?

No. I am not saying they should give better service. I am saying that even if they wanted to, it is difficult for them to do so, because this is how companies are required to operate nowadays. (I am not certain who exactly owns Rigol, and their Finnish sales seem good people, but unless a company is owned and run by people not focused on maximizing short term profits, they cannot do better service.)

I have several pieces of Rigol equipment, and had problems only once in a few years. It was DP832, screen problem. I contacted reseller I bought it  from and a the same time Rigol to ask who do I send it back to. Reseller got back to me for details, and sent me prepaid shipping slip. I sent PSU back next day, and day after that I received brand new one as replacement. It was sent before I send mine back..
In a week or so Rigol EU contacted me to check if all was sorted...

Excellent! And thanks for reporting a different, much better experience.

As to myself, I have had both good and bad warranty experiences. I'm not a Rigol or Keysight customer, so not with either of those; only with various computer parts and their manufacturers. The good experiences have been basically when the reseller replaced the item (soon after purchase, well within warranty); the bad when the manufacturer has taken a month or two to "fix" it (as far as I can tell, they all seem to have been replacements actually), and the worst when the manufacturer has taken two months to reply that the particular bit is not covered under the warranty -- which may be against the law here, as the entire product is covered under the warranty for at least manufacturing defects by law; but who has the energy to fight a company that claims that?

The nominally "bad" part has always been just having to do without the item in the mean time. If I had needed them for running a business, I would have just chucked the item, and bought a (better) replacement, from a different seller.

[2N3055]

Despite clear trolling by some here, the myth of that fantastic spare parts availability for end user is BS.

Many moons ago, big USA manufacturers HAD to establish repair structure (they were forced to by government) as a part of their military contracts.
That included component level service manuals, part lists and guaranteed parts delivery.
They didn't do it because they were good. It was expensive to do. They did it because they were forced to and government (in this case USA, or should I say US taxpayers) paid for it.

With all that in place, it was obvious they can also give that kind of service to other paying customers. It cost them literally nothing.

Nobody does that anymore. It is not economically viable. Board level replacement, return board (or device) for factory refurbishment.

And it was USA manufacturers that first started doing this. Chinese ones are just going with the flow.

Enough with non-facts and hallucinations...

[BravoV]

Not necessarily.  I had a keysight 4000X series oscilloscope fail literally 1 week out of warranty.  Our service rep said they would handle it under warranty (we buy a lot of stuff from them).  They wanted to use this to sell us extended warranties on all our equipment.  But after getting it back for service, the warranty department billed us anyway because they determined the failure was the power supply whish is not covered under warranty -- which is crazy! the power supply is the part that is going to fail.  So we didn't buy the extended warranties.

Your testimony here is not new, too many similar ones already in this forum, but still there are tons of these delusional people keep ignoring post like this, and keep bashing cheap Chinese stuff as like they were forced to buy them, worst keep worshiping brand like Keysight with uuhh ... oohh .... how great their support ... really entertaining to watch.

[Nominal Animal]

Despite clear trolling by some here [...] Enough with non-facts and hallucinations...

Right: Attack the messenger, so you don't need to admit to any mistakes or misunderstandings you've made yourself. 

For the record, I have never trolled, and never will. I try to as clearly and honestly express my opinion as I can, although my English still occasionally fails me. My only intent is to help and illuminate, and that's it.

[wraper]

They are just doing business.

This is one of the reasons why Keysight, Keithley, R&S... etc gear costs more. Its not just the build quality but also the support they offer for there costumers. Just because they offer such a generous service does not mean that all test equipment manufacturers do.

This is the same sort of support you might get for a Sony TV.

Not necessarily.  I had a keysight 4000X series oscilloscope fail literally 1 week out of warranty.  Our service rep said they would handle it under warranty (we buy a lot of stuff from them).  They wanted to use this to sell us extended warranties on all our equipment.  But after getting it back for service, the warranty department billed us anyway because they determined the failure was the power supply whish is not covered under warranty -- which is crazy! the power supply is the part that is going to fail.  So we didn't buy the extended warranties.

I guess they thought it was rather common NAND corruption which is repaired for free even out of warranty (main board replacement). PSU certainly does not fall under that voluntary warranty extension. And this has nothing to do with normal or extended warranty under which PSU will be replaced for free.

[2N3055]

What are you talking about?

Planned obsolescence, with the cheapest parts giving up the ghost first, so that the companies can make maximum short term profit on repairs with a flat rate, because they are required to make the maximum profit in the short term.

Paul Price had DS4000 fail few weeks before warranty expired, he contacted Rigol and then they said "No problem we'll fix it for free, it's in warranty. And please hurry up because you have only few weeks left."

And if he did that, he would be several weeks without a tool.

Do you have a car? If there is a problem with it, known to be covered under the manufacturers warranty (some sort of known defect), I assume you'll have it towed to the manufacturers designated mechanic on your own expense, and then wait for weeks for it to be fixed, and rent a car for your own use for the duration, and be happy with the warranty service? Right.

So Rigol have to give you better service than Keysight and than do it for free?

Huh?  Did you even read what I wrote?

No. I am not saying they should give better service. I am saying that even if they wanted to, it is difficult for them to do so, because this is how companies are required to operate nowadays. (I am not certain who exactly owns Rigol, and their Finnish sales seem good people, but unless a company is owned and run by people not focused on maximizing short term profits, they cannot do better service.)

I have several pieces of Rigol equipment, and had problems only once in a few years. It was DP832, screen problem. I contacted reseller I bought it  from and a the same time Rigol to ask who do I send it back to. Reseller got back to me for details, and sent me prepaid shipping slip. I sent PSU back next day, and day after that I received brand new one as replacement. It was sent before I send mine back..
In a week or so Rigol EU contacted me to check if all was sorted...

Excellent! And thanks for reporting a different, much better experience.

As to myself, I have had both good and bad warranty experiences. I'm not a Rigol or Keysight customer, so not with either of those; only with various computer parts and their manufacturers. The good experiences have been basically when the reseller replaced the item (soon after purchase, well within warranty); the bad when the manufacturer has taken a month or two to "fix" it (as far as I can tell, they all seem to have been replacements actually), and the worst when the manufacturer has taken two months to reply that the particular bit is not covered under the warranty -- which may be against the law here, as the entire product is covered under the warranty for at least manufacturing defects by law; but who has the energy to fight a company that claims that?

The nominally "bad" part has always been just having to do without the item in the mean time. If I had needed them for running a business, I would have just chucked the item, and bought a (better) replacement, from a different seller.

I see there is misunderstanding here. So let me say it plainly: Not a single manufacturer in the world would behave differently that Rigol to his demands. You have to send it back for warranty. If you don't want to do that that means you voluntarily gave up on your warranty rights. Try that with ANY manufacturer, they will tell you the same. 

Scopes are not cars. And for your information, where I live, if I leave car for a service, unless it is one day, I have to pay for the rent myself. Go figure.
They give me really discounted prices, but I pay. I guess not every service level is same as car service in USA. :-)

And yes, you DO want for Rigol to give better service than other manufacturers, because he would have same experience with ANY other manufacturers today.  At least that is how I read it. If I misunderstood  I apologize. I see now that you realize realites, which is the whole point here.
 
The whole thing here is bashing manufacturers (any manufacturer, if that was a comment how Keysight are ass****s because of same reason, I would react to that too) for something that is not their fault.
They are not responsible if I'm unreasonable..

Wishing for something doesn't make it true.

Take care,

[2N3055]

Despite clear trolling by some here [...] Enough with non-facts and hallucinations...

Right: Attack the messenger, so you don't need to admit to any mistakes or misunderstandings you've made yourself. 

For the record, I have never trolled, and never will. I try to as clearly and honestly express my opinion as I can, although my English still occasionally fails me. My only intent is to help and illuminate, and that's it.

That was ABSOLUTELY NOT addressed at you... While I don't agree with some of your opinions (which is normal, we are not the same, and I respect that.) you made normal comments. I hope it stays that way.

[Nominal Animal]

While I don't agree with some of your opinions

That is important, and good.  Without disagreement, nothing new will be uncovered.  Plus, I personally am often wrong.  If I am in error, I do appreciate being pointed out exactly how.  I am just overly sensitive if it goes personal; claims of trolling and whatnot.  (For what it is worth, I do not think there are any trolls in this thread; I do believe everyone has expressed their honest opinion.  By definition, that is not trolling.)

Within this discussion, it looks like experiences vary even for the warranty services of a single international company, depending on the country.  It might even depend on the particular person on the other end.  I wonder if, and how, this has changed in the last ten years or so; whether there is a common tendency.  (For that, I would definitely not trust my own experiences alone: too small a sample.  Also, users whose equipment haven't needed warranty repairs, will obviously be happy with their equipment manufacturer.)

It probably won't matter to JLM who started this thread, but I personally have learned a pretty important thing from this thread: If I want to buy an expensive piece of equipment, I'd better check the warranty services first, and if possible, find out what kind of experiences others have had with them (both the tool, and the warranty services) in the past.  You just do not know, not based on the company reputation, or anything like that.  Only experience will tell.

Once again, talking to local old hands in the field and having practical experience with the equipment would be priceless.

[Electro Detective]

...but I personally have learned a pretty important thing from this thread:
If I want to buy an expensive piece of equipment, I'd better check the warranty services first, and if possible, find out what kind of experiences others have had with them (both the tool, and the warranty services) in the past. 

You just do not know, not based on the company reputation, or anything like that.  Only experience will tell.

Once again, talking to local old hands in the field and having practical experience with the equipment would be priceless.

Never lose sight of that reminder, because it will cost dearly having 'faith' in companies products made in blinged up sweatshops overseas,
producing Forest Gump  'box of chocolates' quality   

i.e. judging by some of the gab here, the 'good ol days' are gone, thanks to new  corporat  'philosohies' and their closet 'troll calling' supporters   

$400 is a LOT of money to most battlers struggling to maintain a lab or a decent tool kit,
perhaps not for overpaid techs and EEs who use gear for FREE,
and select shills on the right side of the fence with a cushy job their rich connected uncle handballed to them

[2N3055]

perhaps not for overpaid techs and EEs who use gear for FREE,
and select shills on the right side of the fence with a cushy job their rich connected uncle handballed to them

You have been on this site for many years..

Do you want to take this personal, slimy, offensive statement back and apologize or should we start voting to ban you of the forum?

You contributed nothing on this topic, only regurgitating other people statements, and repeating hate, offense and amplifying only negative.  What is YOUR motive for that?

Please share your experience with Rigol service or ask relevant questions about it. Also comparing same for same with service from other manufacturers is also on topic..
If you have nothing to contribute here on this topic, please go and open your topic on whatever bothers you and discuss it here.

Regards,

[wraper]

Frankly, IME Rigol warranty service crap, at least here. However it seems ridiculous to request something that is not normally covered under warranty or paid repair, and becoming angry at the company if refused. If some company does it, it's a good will bonus, not norm. As of encoders, they likely don't even stock them and replace a whole PCB. Keeping stock of parts for component level repair and people qualified for that is significant additional expense and repair quality concern. And is only viable if there is big turnaround. Talking about a little time out of warranty, 3y is longer than law requires (1y or 2y in most countries). I would understand if you are upset when expensive product dies after 1y and a few days after purchase (hello Apple) but 3y is a completely reasonable time.

[precaud]

Planned obsolescence, with the cheapest parts giving up the ghost first, so that the companies can make maximum short term profit on repairs with a flat rate, because they are required to make the maximum profit in the short term.

That's pretty pessimistic. My hunch is, if we could transport ourselves back in time into the meeting rooms where such decisions were supposedly made, there would be very few examples of this intentional "planned obsolescence" in the test equipment world.
Poorly thought out and engineered choices? Sure.
As-yet-unrealized unintended consequences (learning curves) ? Definitely.
Built to meet a price target? You bet.
Knowing in advance that some parts had a limited lifespan? Absolutely.
But intentionally designed to fail? Doubtful.

When I look back at stuff I designed and built in the 80's and 90's, I always see things I now know were not the best design choices. Instances of components I used primarily because I had a bunch of 'em on hand, or had a relationship with a particular supplier, but wouldn't use again if I were doing it over. But nothing was ever designed-to-fail.

My sense of Rigol and other companies with a similar market niche is: the finance and marketing dep'ts, not engineering, run the show; they design and build to pricepoints; technical support is quite limited; and component-level repair is, for the most part, not supported. It's a consumer-commodity business they're in, and "bidness is bidness". This is the norm. Expecting anything beyond it is unrealistic.

Back in the early 80's, before I really understood computers, an Apple computer we paid 5 grand for failed a couple weeks after the warranty expired. They wouldn't cover it, and wouldn't send us any service docs. That was the last Apple product I ever bought. We sold the others and switched to CP/M for business and HP for the lab.

Personally, I don't own a Rigol, probably never will, but I understand the appeal. Marketing is a very powerful thing, especially on newbies. At the top of this webpage is a sexy ad for one of their DSO's. They know how to create desire. Eye candy. It looks better than it is.

[madires]

A good service has to be priced in. So you can't expect a company selling inexpensive T&M devices to give you generous additional service. Maybe you'll get that if you buy tons of their stuff, but that's a different story. When your cheap scope breaks after the warranty period has ended and you can't fix it yourself buy a new one. Or do you expect that your 3 years old broken 20 bucks toaster will be fixed for free? If you want a first class service you have to pay for that. Please research also service options before buying a T&M device next time.

PS: When I'd require a working scope at all times then I would buy a second one as spare.

[Nominal Animal]

But intentionally designed to fail? Doubtful.

I understand your (and others') viewpoint, but why would it usually be the cheapest components (knobs, voltage regulators, cheap capacitors) that fail, then?

When I look back at stuff I designed and built in the 80's and 90's, I always see things I now know were not the best design choices.

Yeah, but consider this: If you sold the same product, in the thousands, and found that some of the cheapest components would be the ones to fail, would you try to find better ones for future manufacturing runs, or would you stay with the failing components?

It is likely true that planned obsolescense is very rarely if ever designed in to the first run of a product.  However, I do claim that when a weak point is observed in the product, but it fails on average after the warranty period has expired, most companies (although I do not know whether this applies to Rigol, Keysight, etc.) management does not allow better replacements to be used, because they believe it might reduce short-term profits, and will insist on keeping the failing parts as it achieves obsolescence.

In other words, planned obsolescence in my opinion does not necessarily mean designed-in from the get go; it is more of a business/product strategy after weak points are recognized in the product, and not replaced/reinforced.

And it does drive me nuts. Yes, it is the reality, but I don't like it. I know I am futilely .

When I'd require a working scope at all times then I would buy a second one as spare

I do that too, with components, parts, and even computers if I can afford it at all.  My colleagues usually objected (to getting a spare), unless or until they had to do without a spare for a while...

[wraper]

But intentionally designed to fail? Doubtful.

I understand your (and others') viewpoint, but why would it usually be the cheapest components (knobs, voltage regulators, cheap capacitors) that fail, then?

First of all they are not that cheap compared to the vast majority of other components. Secondly, the are the most stressed components, either electrically/thermally or mechanically.

[BravoV]

When I look back at stuff I designed and built in the 80's and 90's, I always see things I now know were not the best design choices. Instances of components I used primarily because I had a bunch of 'em on hand, or had a relationship with a particular supplier, but wouldn't use again if I were doing it over. But nothing was ever designed-to-fail.

My sense of Rigol and other companies with a similar market niche is: the finance and marketing dep'ts, not engineering, run the show; they design and build to pricepoints; technical support is quite limited; and component-level repair is, for the most part, not supported. It's a consumer-commodity business they're in, and "bidness is bidness". This is the norm. Expecting anything beyond it is unrealistic.

Back in the early 80's, before I really understood computers, an Apple computer we paid 5 grand for failed a couple weeks after the warranty expired. They wouldn't cover it, and wouldn't send us any service docs. That was the last Apple product I ever bought. We sold the others and switched to CP/M for business and HP for the lab.

Personally, I don't own a Rigol, probably never will, but I understand the appeal. Marketing is a very powerful thing, especially on newbies. At the top of this webpage is a sexy ad for one of their DSO's. They know how to create desire. Eye candy. It looks better than it is.

One thing you forgot to mention, in early 80's, 90's or even 70's maybe you're still young and probably a passionate electronics enthusiast, I'm pretty confident that you still remember in that eras, for "average" hobbyists & enthusiasts, owning even an used oscilloscope was probably a dream, lets alone having a brand spanking new scope with warranty.

Not accusing you, but here in this forum alone, few delusional old farts that lived thru that eras, sort of forget this history, and keep bashing the current "affordable" oscilloscope in this era.

Imo, now is the golden era for electronic enthusiast & hobbyist as they don't stuck with multi-meter "only" to troubleshoot everything like in the "dark olde days". Just look around at those beginners forums around like Arduino, see how those youngsters able to find out that their crappy ex phone charger used to power their Arduino had been causing problems because of random power glitches, thanks to single shot capability.

Isn't this a good thing especially for young generation ? And have to admit we have to thank to those so called "damn" Chinese.

Just try to troubleshoot that kind of problem with only multi-meter.


Also regarding Chinese bashing, we've seen alot here around like "Cheap Chinese" .. "Crappy Cheap Chinese" ... "Cursed Chinese Crap" ... etc ..  These are actually meaningless whines. As I remember pretty well when I was very young age, in late 60's, my grand dad said this exact phrase to my proud dad that brought his new gadget and he got this ... "GET THAT NIKON CRAP OUT OF MY HOUSE !!!! Real man use Leica" .. and also spitted out other popular European brands camera.

May be in near future, some of us may be cursing saying same thing to youngsters that bring maybe Indian made stuffs ?

[precaud]

One thing you forgot to mention, in early 80's, 90's or even 70's maybe you're still young and probably a passionate electronics enthusiast, I'm pretty confident that you still remember in that eras, for "average" hobbyists & enthusiasts, owning even an used oscilloscope was probably a dream, lets alone having a brand spanking new scope with warranty.

True. But I took a different path... I didn't own a scope until my spectrum analyzer broke and I needed a scope to troubleshoot it... paid $300 for a used HP 130C (which I probably still have), and which proved to be the wrong scope for the task...

Not accusing you, but here in this forum alone, few delusional old farts that lived thru that eras, sort of forget this history, and keep bashing the current "affordable" oscilloscope in this era.

Imo, now is the golden era for electronic enthusiast & hobbyist as they don't stuck with multi-meter "only" to troubleshoot everything like in the "dark olde days". Just look around at those beginners forums around like Arduino, see how those youngsters able to find out that their crappy ex phone charger used to power their Arduino had been causing problems because of random power glitches, thanks to single shot capability.

Isn't this a good thing especially for young generation ? And have to admit we have to thank to those so called "damn" Chinese.

Points taken. Of course its a good thing that enthusiasts & hobbyists have far superior (and more affordable) tools than we did. And yes, I guess I am an old fart. But I'm not bashing the current era's affordable scopes. I'm just saying; know the company you're buying from, what their priorities are, and adjust your expectations accordingly. These companies operate very differently from what I was weaned on. They operate more like any other mainstream-commodity company does. The cost of support has to be built into the product's price. If its not, you won't get it. That's all. I knew full well that the stuff I bought from HP in the 80's was "expensive for what it was" but I knew from the start that I needed the ongoing support and that was part of the price. And their support was fantastic, unlike anything I see today. I could give many examples of it.

Test and measurement may be in a "golden era" now as you say, with mature and pretty well defined technologies, and that is what makes these affordable DSO's possible. But it wasn't back in the 80's. Integrating microprocessors into instruments, with remote control and data transfer, was brand new territory and didn't really begin to become "affordable" until 1979 or 1980 (and that is if you call a $10,000 [in 1980 $$] FFT analyzer affordable... or a $2,000 DVM). Everyone who bought one needed support from the manufacturer. There was nowhere else to get it. Now, the internet takes up some of the slack.

Also regarding Chinese bashing, we've seen alot here around like "Cheap Chinese" .. "Crappy Cheap Chinese" ... "Cursed Chinese Crap" ... etc ..  These are actually meaningless whines.

I am not a China basher, and never have been. I respect them a great deal. Economic factors are in their favor at this point in history, and they are taking advantage of it, just like other countries have done in the past.

Everything else has been well said by other posters. It is common sense to have spares of indispensable instruments. Back in the 80's, HP would supply a loaner if needed for instruments that went in for repair. The sales rep would  probably hand-deliver it too. But its a different world now. You buy DSO's, groceries, and underwear from the same retailer now. "Support" means something else 

[Paul Price]

I can understand why a company would cut a competitive corner and not bend over backwards to help a customer, but I can't understand why posters on this topic would find it necessary to praise them for this and so passionately defend an attitude that a customer should have to bend over forwards to be well-serviced by a company.

[Mr. Scram]

Please note that "cheap Chinese" isn't bashing. The "cheap" part differentiates cheaply or badly made items from regular production. The fact that people distinguish "cheap Chinese" from regular Chinese makes it anything but bashing.

[wraper]

I can understand why a company would cut a competitive corner and not bend over backwards to help a customer, but I can't understand why posters on this topic would find it necessary to praise them for this and so passionately defend an attitude that a customer should have to bend over forwards to be well-serviced by a company.

I don't see praising the company. It's just pointing out that if you have exorbitant expectations does not mean that company must bend over backwards to satisfy you. And if it does not, then expecting that other people must support your outrage.

[Paul Price]

There is a big difference between supporting me or others who express their experience with Rigol and shaming them.

The use of words like 'Old farts", delusional, or even "having exorbitant expectations" is on obvious shift to attack and shaming.

There is an old Chinese saying, that is still held sacred today. "A nail in the floor that sticks up must be quickly hammered down!"

[wraper]

The use of words like 'Old farts", delusional, or even "having exorbitant expectations" is on obvious shift to attack and shame.

AFAIK one who said "old farts" is one of them. I don't see any offence in how it was used. Thinking that bending over backwards to satisfy you is a norm is exactly exorbitant expectation. I like good customer service but I don't expect more than a company owes me. If I get it, awesome. If I don't, meh.

[wraper]

I only become outraged when I don't get the service which company actually owes me. Actually you can call me a Rigol hater. Because 4 years ago they drove me nuts by footballing my DM3068 back at forth for 6 months and not admitting that apparent issue is a fault. Until I got so pissed, that myself made it so faulty, they just replaced it.