Author Topic: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits  (Read 12739 times)

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Offline DabbotTopic starter

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Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« on: December 04, 2021, 01:59:54 am »
Consider this a place to share and discuss methods of flashing an LED from a <= 1.5V power source (single alkaline / NiMH cells, etc).

Discrete components only and preferably tested. Feel free to include discrete versions of the LM3909 and similar.



Here is my own. This circuit uses a PUT connected transistor pair, which operates a third transistor to discharge a storage capacitor in series with the LED and the power source.



When C2 charges high enough to trigger the PUT, R6 diverts the majority of current from C2 to switch on Q1 and flash the LED. It works down to 0.8v. Tested with 548/558 and 2222/2907.

The user can choose C2 up to 10uF and R4 as low as 47K when setting up the timing. R2 and R3 can also be modified to accommodate different choices of C1 and charge rate, as long as R2/R3 is roughly maintained.

Having R4 connected to Q1's collector helps reliably reset the PUT, but if a sufficiently large value of R4 is chosen, it can be connected directly to the positive supply, allowing R2 and R3 to be the same value, e.g. 4K7.

Plenty of testing went into selecting R6, R7 and R8, with one of my goals being the ability to drop in different jellybean transistors and maintain roughly the same performance, while sticking to E12 resistance values.

(Edit1: Insert image)
(Edit2: Updated schematic)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2021, 11:02:01 am by Dabbot »
 

Offline magic

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2021, 04:00:57 am »
Blinking aside, are you sure that there are LEDs that will work from 1.2V supply?

Alright, I see the trick :-+
« Last Edit: December 04, 2021, 04:08:42 am by magic »
 

Offline DabbotTopic starter

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2021, 04:08:41 am »
Yes. This is sitting on a breadboard nearby and can comfortably run most LEDs.
 

Offline ledtester

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2021, 04:33:34 am »
The first one I remember seeing years ago was in Bill Bowden's collection of circuits:



His collection used to be hosted on Compuserve user pages. It has since moved to:

http://www.bowdenshobbycircuits.info/index.html

 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2021, 04:40:04 am »
Submitting for Ye Olde blocking oscillator ("joule thief").

It works down to whatever Vbe is (so, ~0.7V for Si, less if you're willing to allow vintage Ge), and startup can be had from a JFET or depletion MOS oscillator which can start up as low as the 10s mV.

(There are SiGe RF transistors, but the Ge is employed in the B-C junction IIRC, greatly enhancing performance, but not affecting Vbe much compared to Si.)

A relevant property of the blocking oscillator is, when gain is adequately high, it can kick on with very little bias indeed, and then do a single cycle, or burst of cycles, depending on the values of base resistance and capacitance.  When the time between bursts is quite long, well, it visibly flashes.

I once made a reasonably-scaled joule thief, that is, capable of about a watt into an illumination grade LED:



Of course you'll notice that's a 1.5V cell (or 1.2V, I most often have a NiMH in it), so it's doing the business.  It's more of a flashlight than a flasher, but I'll get to that in a moment.

That's a 3A low-Vce(sat) transistor (such as PBSS303NX), which boasts quite excellent hFE and Vce(sat), even up to quite high currents.  And, so it seems, down to low currents as well.  The switch selects between open, 1k and 100R for the base bias, giving "off", low and high power settings.  If I touch my finger across the switch terminals while in the "off" position, I can make it blink at some fractional Hz as my skin leakage (~Mohm) charges the base bypass cap, which eventually kicks over and fires off one pulse.  And being the pulse is a few watts, it's quite brightly visible despite being only some microseconds in duration.

I think you'll have a hard time going lower (in voltage) with a charge pump architecture, but inductors are fine down to whatever.  Eventually the problem is getting enough power at all; you need very thick semiconductors indeed to obtain any kind of useful power from a handful of thermocouples, say (~10s mV, so even 100mW needs some ~A!).  The advantage of a charge pump is, it doesn't need to switch fast, just solidly enough to not lose a bunch of charge in the process.

Another difficulty is the "valves" in the "pump" -- doing it the easy way, with diodes, loses you a ton of Vf.  (Consider the losses in a voltage multiplier or Cockroft-Walton stack.)  This is another case where integrated circuits shine; it's no problem to load up a couple dozen CMOS switches, complete with level shifting driver circuitry.  Have fun doing all that on the breadboard (where you can't even get 4-terminal MOSFETs, except for a very few outliers). :P

Tim
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Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
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Offline DabbotTopic starter

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2021, 05:14:10 am »
The first one I remember seeing years ago was in Bill Bowden's collection of circuits:

(Attachment Link)

His collection used to be hosted on Compuserve user pages. It has since moved to:

http://www.bowdenshobbycircuits.info/index.html

Just built the bottom right one. Wasn't able to get it to work, but I'll keep investigating.


Edit: It almost works. When I switch it on I get a single pulse, but that's it.
- Tried adjusting the 1.5M resistor up and down
- Tried different transistors (2222/2907)
- Using a non-polarized cap for the 1uF just to be sure
- Tried changing the supply voltage
- Introduced some series resistance into the supply
« Last Edit: December 04, 2021, 06:25:03 am by Dabbot »
 

Offline DabbotTopic starter

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2021, 05:26:01 am »
If I touch my finger across the switch terminals while in the "off" position, I can make it blink at some fractional Hz as my skin leakage (~Mohm) charges the base bypass cap, which eventually kicks over and fires off one pulse.

Extra points for this versatility.  :-+
 

Offline DabbotTopic starter

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2021, 03:22:28 am »
The first one I remember seeing years ago was in Bill Bowden's collection of circuits:

(Attachment Link)

His collection used to be hosted on Compuserve user pages. It has since moved to:

http://www.bowdenshobbycircuits.info/index.html

I got this one to work with small modifications. See attached.

Q3 could also be driven from the other side of C1.

There are other variants of this circuit which use Q2 to perform the charge pump switching, instead of a dedicated transistor.

(Edit: Correction to schematic)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2021, 09:46:53 am by Dabbot »
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2021, 09:36:24 am »
1m is too lower resistance. Don't you mean 1M?
Note that LTSpice is case insensitive, so 1Meg should be written for 1M. I know you're just using it for schematic capture, rather than simulation, so it's not important here, but it's important to know for future reference.

How about using the classic two NPN astable circuit?
 
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Offline DabbotTopic starter

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2021, 09:52:55 am »
1m is too lower resistance. Don't you mean 1M?
Note that LTSpice is case insensitive, so 1Meg should be written for 1M. I know you're just using it for schematic capture, rather than simulation, so it's not important here, but it's important to know for future reference.
Good catch. Corrected.
 

Offline DabbotTopic starter

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2021, 11:09:11 am »
How about using the classic two NPN astable circuit?


I built this up on the breadboard. Worked straight away for a nice bright blinky.

It does pull a fair bit of quiescent current, but that could be mitigated by lowering C1 & C2, and raising R1, R3 and R4.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2021, 11:13:16 am by Dabbot »
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2021, 06:12:25 pm »
Related, but definitely not single cell:
https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/Images/Tube_Shift_Register.pdf
https://imgur.com/gallery/OF4jAxh

Relevant, the ratio of resistor and capacitor values get kind of weird, for large ratios (and thus extreme duty cycles).  At some point, increasing the ratio fails to increase duty, but increases frequency instead -- because the discharge cycle of the larger one is cut short by the short charge cycle of the other, something like that.  With the values shown, I got a... what was it, something like 10us pulse every some Hz?  Dang, I forget exactly what the timing was anymore...

And mind, that's for tubes, so, a FET-like multivibrator.  This should be harder with BJTs, as you're limited on base bias resistor value as well.  Maybe doesn't matter since the architecture above (BJTs) is ultimately limited by C3 into D1, but interesting anyway.

Heh, or a more relevant but even more esoteric method, instead of neons, I suppose you could make a relaxation/multivibrator that drives LEDs directly, using tunnel diodes.  That's probably the least-component solution.  Good luck with finding them though. :)

Edit:
...Can you make a low voltage lambda diode with logic-level N/P MOS?  Hmm... that might be worth a try.  Don't think I have any low enough in voltage to try it at 1.5V though.

Tim
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2021, 10:12:42 pm »
How about using the classic two NPN astable circuit?


I built this up on the breadboard. Worked straight away for a nice bright blinky.

It does pull a fair bit of quiescent current, but that could be mitigated by lowering C1 & C2, and raising R1, R3 and R4.
This one should use less quiescent current.
 
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2021, 11:44:41 pm »
This one should use less quiescent current.

It doesn't work for me, both transistors stay turned on.
.  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline DabbotTopic starter

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2021, 12:59:13 am »
This one should use less quiescent current.


This one works for me. Draws around 20 microamps between flashes and operates down to just over a volt.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2021, 06:39:27 am »
It doesn't work for me, both transistors stay turned on.
Increase R3 perhaps?
And I think it could simply go to ground as well.
 

Offline DabbotTopic starter

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2021, 08:05:46 am »
It doesn't work for me, both transistors stay turned on.
Increase R3 perhaps?
And I think it could simply go to ground as well.
You can take R3 to ground (and thus get rid of R1), but make sure you increase it a lot. At least 470K. The reason it's there with the 22K is to reliably reset the circuit.
I've also noticed this circuit stops functioning at higher voltages, so verify your supply voltage.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2021, 08:33:50 am »
This solution is quite sensitive to R3 and β of the transistors.
Dependence on PNP beta could be eliminated with addition of a diode (better: a diode-connected PNP), like in this circuit that Zero999 "borrowed".
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/a-simple-traffic-warning-light-drives-me-nuts!/
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2021, 08:45:38 am »
This solution is quite sensitive to R3 and β of the transistors.
Dependence on PNP beta could be eliminated with addition of a diode (better: a diode-connected PNP), like in this circuit that Zero999 "borrowed".
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/a-simple-traffic-warning-light-drives-me-nuts!/
Here's the correct link.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/a-simple-traffic-warning-light-drives-me-nuts!/

Yes, I did take it from that thread. It's an old circuit. I remember it from the Forrest Mimms books I bought from Tandy years ago and that thread reminded me of it.

Unfortunately the circuit in his books often omitted a series resistor with the frequency adjustment potentiometer, which would smoke the transistor if it was set too low and adding base resistor to Q2 is also a good idea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forrest_Mims#Author
 

Offline not1xor1

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2021, 09:18:58 am »
Here are a couple of circuits I tested years ago... I didn't saved any note on the performance but I found something about in old messages I posted on local (Italian) newsgroup.

This should work with LEDs of any colour. The light pulse lasts 100-150ms and the frequency is about 1Hz with 500µA of battery current. Low fwdV LEDs should work with 1.2V or less.



I could not find any note about this single capacitor flasher. LTspice simulation did not work at 1.5V but I think it depends on the LED model.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2021, 09:21:13 am by not1xor1 »
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2021, 09:54:58 am »
I could not find any note about this single capacitor flasher. LTspice simulation did not work at 1.5V but I think it depends on the LED model.
It looks interesting. What LED model did you use?

I just use many standard silicon diodes in series, to get the appropriate forward voltage to model an LED. Insert the standard LED into the schematic. Right click on the symbol. Where it says value2, enter n=3, meaning three in series, for a standard red LED. The good thing about this feature is decimals can be used, so 4.5 can be used for a blue LED. Using m instead of n, connects them in parallel.

This works for other components.
https://www.analog.com/en/technical-articles/ltspice-combining-multiple-model-instances-into-one-symbol.html
 

Offline not1xor1

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2021, 11:52:07 am »
I could not find any note about this single capacitor flasher. LTspice simulation did not work at 1.5V but I think it depends on the LED model.
It looks interesting. What LED model did you use?

QTLP690C

Quote
I just use many standard silicon diodes in series, to get the appropriate forward voltage to model an LED. Insert the standard LED into the schematic. Right click on the symbol. Where it says value2, enter n=3, meaning three in series, for a standard red LED. The good thing about this feature is decimals can be used, so 4.5 can be used for a blue LED. Using m instead of n, connects them in parallel.

I know... but had not tried... it looks like it works better... I changed a few values in this:
 

Offline DabbotTopic starter

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2021, 12:04:53 pm »
I could not find any note about this single capacitor flasher. LTspice simulation did not work at 1.5V but I think it depends on the LED model.



I gave this one a try. It barely works at 1.5V. I did get improved performance changing the 6K8 to 10K.


I know... but had not tried... it looks like it works better... I changed a few values in this:

This one works much better.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2021, 12:35:25 pm by Dabbot »
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2021, 07:52:08 pm »
For some reason I have to keep lowering the 1.5V to <1.43V for it to oscillate. :-//

.  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Discrete Low Voltage Flashing LED Circuits
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2021, 09:12:44 pm »
I changed the resistor values and moved R1, as suggested by the responses to my post. The simulator shows it will work from 1V to 1.6V, which should be good for an AA cell. I'll have to breadboard.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2021, 09:09:09 am by Zero999 »
 


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