Author Topic: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?  (Read 1396 times)

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Offline psxpetey1

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does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« on: October 13, 2020, 04:35:16 pm »
I am hoping to modify a ipod nano and a mini gen 3  the ones with nand soldered to the board. I used to fix a lot of ps3s and modify and hack them and noticed( and kind of figured) that the storage type was 48pin tsop nand. So I went on digikey and mouser to look for sizes, digikey didnt really have anything but mouser had many options 256gbx8 128gbx8 etc. etc. etc. The mini has 1 slot So I'm trying to find the biggest tsop nand size there is (hopefully 128gb). Anyway 256gb/8 would be the 32gb so that would be the biggest size on mouser. I've seen these on ssd's as well so I took a look on Ebay and found a 64gb. the nano gen 1 has 2 memory slots so 2 64gb is pretty good.

Is there anyone who works in memory on this site? Id love to now what the biggest size single tsop ever made was I figure the firmware is on one of the main board chips not the memory as that's how apple does the classics and many of their other Ipods and that the tsops are solely just memory with nothing on them until you put music on.
 

Offline bson

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2020, 04:54:00 pm »
It's not enough for it to have the same package, it also needs to have the same pinout and be compatible in terms of supply voltage and programming.  A good start would be to determine what part the OEM used.
 

Offline psxpetey1

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2020, 09:03:12 pm »
hynix kor hy27uv08bgfm tpcb 2048 x8 and x16 config 8bit 3.3v https://datasheetspdf.com/pdf-file/1231801/HynixSemiconductor/HY27UV08BGFM/1 Partly the reason im wondering what the biggest tsop nand ever made is if its worthwhile trying to find a memory that will work in this ipod.

I have one open right now a mini and that is the memory model. They were all made in the same year so I assume gen 1 nano uses the same.

also couldnt I get a tsop programing board and change the pin layout if need be?

This one looks the same they just use different terminology https://datasheet.lcsc.com/szlcsc/1908271118_Micron-Tech-MT29F64G08CBABAWP-B_C410865.pdf / label system that one looks like a 8gx8 so I assume 8 seperate 8gb chips. maybe that means 8bit tho as it says on the top of the hynix datasheet.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 09:33:34 pm by psxpetey1 »
 

Offline bson

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2020, 09:56:03 pm »
Well, the 4-die Hynix part has 4 CE#'s and 4 R/B#'s.  It's not clear from looking at the datasheet that Micron offers the same 4-die configuration in TSOP-48.
 

Offline psxpetey1

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2020, 10:17:03 pm »
What do you mean by 4 die aaahhh I just read the data sheet fully f is the 4 die version of the Hynix chip good eye. ill have to look out for that .
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 12:13:47 am by psxpetey1 »
 

Offline psxpetey1

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2020, 01:30:21 am »
apparently it does come in quad but your right it doesn't show on the dataset anywhere, I'm trying to find out which product code is what chip but the document is super long, I may have to call micron and ask lol. It definitely would be awesome if they have a 128gb tsop that would make my day, I'm hoping they have a 256 or 512 config too that would rock
 

Offline bson

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2020, 03:46:08 am »
Yeah, the datasheets are pretty massive, and all the nitty gritty details are buried deeply somewhere...  :(

But, if you can find a 4-die Micron part it looks like it should work!  I wonder though what would happen if a 2-die part were used instead and the extra CE#'s ignored... probably nothing good!  :-//  But it could also be the firmware is smart enough to probe around and use what's actually installed.
 

Offline bson

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2020, 04:40:52 am »
I have a gen2 4GB nano, which has a Samsung K9MCG08U5M, a quad TSOP-48 (12·20mm).  This family has a weird 2112 byte page at the end of each 1GB die.  As long as the firmware doesn't use that I'm thinking it should be possible to drop in pretty much any of the quad Microns, and as long as it gets the device info and doesn't barf at the sheer size of a 64GB device, it should be good.  But even a dual might work; the 2GB gen2 nano had only a dual die chip after all.  So the firmware may just adapt to whatever is populated.  You have me curious if it'll just work!  So I ordered a couple of MT29F128G08CFABBWP-12IT:B from Mouser to see if it'll work.  If not I'll just solder the original back on, and will undoubtedly find some use for a couple of sizeable NAND flash chips in a future project...

The quads are a tad pricey! :o
 

Offline texaspyro

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2020, 06:15:43 am »
Yesterday Youtube recommended a video (sorry, can't find it) where a guy put 4 TB into an ipod.  He used a board that used 4 SD cards.  There were a lot of issues going past 2 TB.
 
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Offline psxpetey1

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2020, 11:07:19 am »
That just has to do with the ram size which is 64mb on the classic and 64gb on the nano 3rd gen

The iPod nano gen 1 has 32 mb and 2 tsop slots

iOS can handle about 50 thousand songs on 64mb so the original nanos are good for about 25000

Rockbox can handle much more but the file size doesn’t matter so if you have high fidelity songs you can fill most of that.

The highest iPod classic I’ve seen is 2tb but that’s a bit nuts lol 🥜
 

Offline psxpetey1

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2020, 11:09:20 am »
It might be the original nanos use 2 die and apparently a guy on another forum has a nano gen 3 that uses Toshiba memory and he said it was 2 die I’ll have to check the data sheet on that one tho.
 

Offline psxpetey1

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2020, 01:26:54 pm »
that model the MT29F128G08CFABBWP-12IT:B is that quad or dual I cant find the datasheet on that. I went to micron and found they have UP TO 256gb in tsop nand x8 I cant find a datasheet but I requested one from micron. MT29F256G08CJABBWP-12IT:B Freaking awesome!
 

Offline bson

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2020, 05:00:16 pm »
The datasheet is the one you posted...  It's a 2-die.  The 2-die costs $20, the 4-die about $150.  I'm not that excited about the gen 2, but $20 seems like the right price just to experiment.
 

Offline psxpetey1

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2020, 05:45:39 pm »
Ahhhh I understand I thought you meant the 4die version but it seems like you found the 4die version did you have a link for that one?

I think I’ll go and buy the 2die version as well because 150 is pretty crazy but it would be a good resource to have in my memory banks in case I decide to spring for it.

I couldn’t find the 4die on mouser
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 02:03:48 am by psxpetey1 »
 

Offline psxpetey1

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2020, 12:43:05 am »
Just in case you may need this resource page to read nand info: https://www.freemyipod.org/wiki/Modes , I was watching iPhone storage upgrades and they seem to need to program some kind of identifier to the nand using either a programming station when the chip is off or a box like the irepair dfu box I’ll be using those resources and hooking up the iPod to figure out what they are/ do.


As per this wiki the iPods nano 2g and up use a on chip bootrom on the cpu or something which confirms what I thought.

I also wanted to do this on the iPod nano 1g as I like the look of that one as much as I like the classic and it has 2 nand spots with 32mb of ram whereas all the good models and 2g and up have 64mb.
 

Offline Pack34

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2020, 02:07:21 am »
48 pins
 

Offline amyk

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2020, 03:10:51 am »
When I was still in the s1mp3 scene many years ago (and biggest flash was 16GB = 128Gbit, with 2GB = 16Gbit and below being the norm) memory upgrades were a common thing and the firmware would autodetect capacity. You might be able to stack two dual-CE parts and do a bit of fine wiring to effectively get a quad-CE. 2112 bytes is a common page size, 2048 main area + 64 ECC/spare bytes. The newer (and less reliable) flash, beyond 4LC(MLC), uses a bigger spare area for more ECC, but you're dealing with "old school" stuff.
 

Offline bson

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2020, 03:32:28 am »
For the 4/8 die part #... if you look in the datasheet it has a section:



So you see the second letter after the 08 (the bus width): B, E, F, J ,K, M, U

Of these, the J, K, M are 4-die. U is 8-die.  The J and K have only 2 CE and 2 R/B#, meaning they're shared between pairs of dies.  (Not sure how they make do with fewer CE#'s without a wider bus, but maybe the LUNs are internally coupled.)  For example, MT29F128G08AJAAWP is a 4-die.  (@ $154!)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 03:35:29 am by bson »
 

Offline bson

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2020, 03:37:16 am »
You might be able to stack two dual-CE parts and do a bit of fine wiring to effectively get a quad-CE. 2112 bytes is a common page size, 2048 main area + 64 ECC/spare bytes.
Might be a tight squeeze fitting them into an iPod nano... not much room in there!

1024 + 64 ecc bits = 2112.  Of course!  Thanks!
 

Offline psxpetey1

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2020, 03:52:03 am »
I’d definitely be interested in seeing a diagram of how you would do that. These iPods are cheaper than dirt and the broken ones even cheaper I can buy like 35 for 100$ so even if it wouldn’t fit it’s be cool to try since the 2 die are only 27$ I also have 40awg wire at the ready
 

Offline psxpetey1

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2020, 03:57:55 am »
Lol I need to stop skimming this was exactly the page I was trying to find! It seems the m variant has 4 die 4 ce 4rb like the Hynix. Mouser doesn’t carry it tho so I’d have to get a quote but I can only imagine it’s more than the j version.

I called mouser the other day and they were like 4 die saaaay whaaat. The lady who answered sounded like tree trunks from adventure time lol. But they got an engineer on the phone and he didn’t know either. If I had of seen this I definitely could have expedited the process. 200cad ouchies!
 


Offline psxpetey1

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2020, 03:29:01 pm »
Interesting I wonder if the iPod can drive the extra 3.3v of power it will require or at the very least the 2.6 it will need
 

Offline bson

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2020, 07:41:47 pm »
https://www.micron.com/-/media/client/global/documents/products/technical-note/nand-flash/tn2928.pdf
It looks like the devices with fewer CE#'s than dies and a single 8-bit bus would require synchronous DDR access and might not support an async bus at all. (I.e., WE# is turned into a dual-edge clock used to access the odd-even LUN pairs.) 
 

Offline bson

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2020, 08:19:47 pm »
 

Offline psxpetey1

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2020, 02:28:35 am »
Appears 2 g nano is when they brought in encryption so installing rockbox and backing it up and then flashing the backup seems like it would work so basically any iPod with rockbox version should make it easy. I wonder if the 1g nano would just work automatically or if they just had different older encryption
 

Offline psxpetey1

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2020, 07:55:31 pm »
I would say all at least until 3g nano can use both 2 die and 4 die variants here is another project : https://hackaday.io/project/173985-ipod-nano-3rd-gen-mlc-nand-upgrade-software-hack someone is attempting with a TH58NVG5D1DTG20 tsop nand in the 3g nano and it is a 2die 2ce 2rb device Data Sheet: https://html.alldatasheet.net/html-pdf/523065/TOSHIBA/TH58NVG5S0FTA20/610/2/TH58NVG5S0FTA20.html. I wonder why apple used 2 and 4 die devices maybe just availability?
 

Offline bson

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2020, 11:11:29 pm »
The plot thickens.  I had a 2G nano which my wife has been using - she takes it to the gym (or used to, until the rona).  But she ALSO had one, with a dead battery - so I took that one, ordered a replacement battery and will experiment with getting Rockbox onto it.  RB has its own NAND flash device table, so isn't dependent on the stock firmware's support.  If the micron ones aren't already supported I'll add them and rebuild the firmware.  I might also see how hard it is to simply probe to figure out the geometry; this whole device table business is kind of cumbersome.  So waiting on a new battery here...
 

Offline amyk

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2020, 12:19:31 am »
The old-school (SLC/MLC) flash, besides number of CEs/dies, and total capacity, varies relatively little; the biggest distinction is between small and large-block types, but you are unlikely to find much small-block in production these days: https://www.micron.com/support/~/media/74C3F8B1250D4935898DB7FE79EB56E7.ashx

Newer parts that are more than 2 bits per cell have very strange layouts, including "void" areas in the address space. I never looked into that much and the manufacturers seem to be far more secretive about it.
 
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Offline psxpetey1

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2020, 09:52:02 pm »
Hows this for s thick plot, I saw your comment and decided to start messing with my 3g(still waiting for a battery and the chip.) So I plug it in and its booting to a grey screen, so I re solder the black battery wire it had come loose. Then put the back on and then it wouldn't boot at all the back wouldnt close and apparently a small screw was in there I punched it through the motherboard lol!

Well at least I've got 10 2gs on the way 8 1gs and 6 3gs(I got a nice lot on eBay for 30$) Well now I wait. I was trying to extract the firmware but free my iPod makes it sound like you need to do it on the iPod. That guide is not very clear lol. I was trying to find the table you were talking about in stock firmware to see what types of devices were listed.
 

Offline Guy Shemesh

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2020, 10:27:25 pm »
Sorry I saw this only now. Here my 2 cents..
The 3 problems with nand flash are:
1. it is a very fast moving market, with many devices becoming obsolete very fast (2yr for example).
2. The specification, although standarized, is not very stable and has room for manufacturer maneuvering.
3. Because NAND needs to be managed for bad sectors and wear leveling, it is often comes preprogrammed from the factory with 'hints' in the spare areas that were prepared during factory first scan of the IC's errors.

For these reasons, NAND is not plug n play IC like SD card or eMMC.. I believe even apple would probably need a software change to adapt to a different memory on board. It's a tough project that has a high likelihood of failing not because of the hardware difficulty but because of the software compatibility.

I would recommend not to spend time on this..
 

Offline amyk

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2020, 01:38:01 am »
The software will autodetect the size within a reasonable range. That's been true of the no-name generic Chinese players (s1mp3) I worked with, and there have been documented evidence from others that Apple is no different in this regard:

http://web.archive.org/web/20100721110312/http://wiki.s1mp3.org/How_to_add/change_a_memory_chip

 

Offline Guy Shemesh

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2020, 03:15:33 pm »
That's not an apple device and I wouldn't be so decisive on the predicted outcome as you - unless you have a reference to show a mod that worked on apple
 

Offline psxpetey1

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2020, 04:33:42 pm »
Have you done the mod? Don't tell people it wont work unless you can point to an example of it not working. Every time I've ever been in a community there are people saying THIS CANT BE DONE meanwhile there are people doing it. Even the iphones can have storage replaced and people even show it on youtube.
 

Offline Guy Shemesh

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2020, 04:54:18 pm »
I was speaking from a technical point of view. Of course I would be happy to be proved wrong and wish you success and good time on your project.
 
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Offline psxpetey1

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2020, 04:56:28 pm »
thanks no worries
 

Offline psxpetey1

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Re: does anyone know what the biggest size of 48pin tsop nand is?
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2020, 04:48:24 pm »
Hey I was searching around and I found a guy who used to do piggy backs for the nano https://web.archive.org/web/20060411140102/http://www.multiarcade.com/ very cool! So I guess this used to work very well!He did double stack on both chnnels! I found this mentioned here: https://hackaday.com/2006/01/12/8gb-ipod-nano-hack/ and then went to they way back machine and found it ! apparently a guy did a mod with an ide drive https://mirror.uncyc.org/wiki/Ipod_Nano_200gb_Instructions/Page_3 only works for6 minutes until the battery dies but a very interesting read!
 


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