PCB manufacturers and assemblers trust

[Yaro]

Hi all,

I've a question about how much we can trust on PCB manufacturers and assemblers. Since I see a lot of new products that in a very short time are copied and selled at lower cost from china, how we can be sure that our project files for PCB manufacturing are in safe hands?
Of course we can use local PCB manufacturers(and, maybe, more reliable), but costs would rise a lot in particular if we also require a PCB assembly.

So, if I want to produce a product how I need to procede with PCB manufacturers and assemblers? Use a local or a chinese producer? in case of chinese producers, will be safer to let them assembly only common electronics(cap, resistors ecc..) and assembly by myself particular electronics?

[dmills]

Ship the assembly house pre programmed micros, with the code protect fuses blown.
Use assembly houses that you are familiar with.
Get the new version out quickly enough that there is little profit in cloning the old one....
When you have two boards, use different assembly houses and have the micros do challenge/response to authenticate each others serial numbers....
Supply the pre programmed micro (with code protect set) and the ethernet mac address chip as a pair, and have the micro trash itself if the MAC fails to match....

None of which will stop a determined cloner if there is sufficient money in play.

End of the day, you have got to work with people you trust, be they local or not (China is no worse for untrustworthy chancers then anywhere else I have been), and yea occasionally stuff gets cloned.
All you can really do is make it annoying to do, and bring out new product often enough to make being 6 months behind a deal killer. 

Regards, Dan.

[LaserSteve]

It has been, in the past, and may still be, the policy of the Chinese government to encourage cloning.  Major mold designs produced in China are registered with a  central database.  Employees are/were encouraged to split from their parent company and start their own plants to compete. Often with government funding to start the plant.

Ever wonder why the cost of injection molds from China was so low compared to the Western world?  Now you know.

I have a internet  friend who manufacturers audio gear. He started up, and then withdrew production in China.   The Quote to him from a senior official was "Why make your own brand when this week you can be Bo$e. We have the molds and drawings".
For various reasons, he did not want to make clones.

The secret is not to load the code or to secure the code in such a way that it is not activated till you have the boards.

I have had one of my products at a past employer cloned.  I get to see my design every time I walk into a Wallmart ten years later.

Take steps. Send only the Gerbers, not the schematic. Ship them some house marked parts. A determined cloner will get there, but you can make it difficult for them.

Other techniques work, but these involve having a employee you trust oversee production in China.

Steve

[kjs]

for everything of any value I won't use China Inc..... There's a PCB house in Canada (ITL circuits) which is very competitive to the Chinese shops and provides excellent quality. Only drawback is that their minimum job size is 4 panels 18"x24" but you can have as many designs as you want.
For assembly I always use a Swiss company which so far was always cheaper than the quotes I got from China. They won't copy my stuff and I can be sure that only genuine parts are used. I had one job done in China and they used fake zero drift OpAmps (yeah, tons of offset) and other stuff. Result was that all the boards had to go into the trash can......

[chibiace]

throw in some defective designs with all the fancy silkscreen to throw them off the scent.

[Rupunzell]

Most every technical product sent to China for mass low cost production has had it's intellectual property stolen and produced without restriction. Many companies have sadly discovered what appears to be significant cost savings by making stuff in China tuned out to be more expensive along with their intellectual property stolen. The apparent low cost is bait, take the bait and be ready for a less than pleasant ride.

Keep in mind there will be a very long extension cord between your design and the folks who build this stuff in China. Beyond this, they like and want to do things their way regardless of what is expected or stated in the contract or print or data file.

There is the serious issue of counterfeit parts wildly out of control in China. The parts specified many appear to be what they should be, until one has a look inside to discover it is so very wrong in every way.

Western business practices do not apply in China. They play by their own rules.

Given a choice, make stuff locally even if the cost is higher. In the long run, this often proves to be the wiser choice.


Bernice

Hi all,

I've a question about how much we can trust on PCB manufacturers and assemblers. Since I see a lot of new products that in a very short time are copied and selled at lower cost from china, how we can be sure that our project files for PCB manufacturing are in safe hands?
Of course we can use local PCB manufacturers(and, maybe, more reliable), but costs would rise a lot in particular if we also require a PCB assembly.

So, if I want to produce a product how I need to procede with PCB manufacturers and assemblers? Use a local or a chinese producer? in case of chinese producers, will be safer to let them assembly only common electronics(cap, resistors ecc..) and assembly by myself particular electronics?

[kjs]

Given a choice, make stuff locally even if the cost is higher. In the long run, this often proves to be the wiser choice.

and if you work with your non-Chinese suppliers to make your designs easy to manufacture they quite often are equal or even lower in price.
Standardize your components to use them in as many designs as possible gives you higher volumes and better prices. Reduce the amount of different components as much as possible as that reduces set-up cost and there are a lot more things which can be done to produce at reasonable cost outside China.

[Yaro]

Thanks for you advices. So, the most important thing is not to send them our ICs. I thought about use one PCB house to produce PCB and another for assembly but, as I read, in china all may collaborate to copy and the risk is that companies may communicate between them. A local manufacturer will be the best also in timing and communications.

PCB productions prices I've found for 1000pcs are 0.50eu from china and 2eu up to 4-5 from USA. The difference is huge, I can't find quotes for assemblies but I suppose it's the same.

Since I'm in Europe, what difference in price I may find? As I see pricies are 5 times china prices.

for everything of any value I won't use China Inc..... There's a PCB house in Canada (ITL circuits) which is very competitive to the Chinese shops and provides excellent quality. Only drawback is that their minimum job size is 4 panels 18"x24" but you can have as many designs as you want.
For assembly I always use a Swiss company which so far was always cheaper than the quotes I got from China. They won't copy my stuff and I can be sure that only genuine parts are used. I had one job done in China and they used fake zero drift OpAmps (yeah, tons of offset) and other stuff. Result was that all the boards had to go into the trash can......

Can you send me swiss company name in PM or here please?

[kjs]

Yaro: PM'ed you...

I don't know the size of your board but if I assume that the 1000pcs fit onto the four 18"x24" panels ITL would be in the China range with their normal quotes for 2-layer ENIG boards. They ship to Europe w/o any issues.

[pillovara]

Hello guys,

I'm new in the forum, although I'm long time follower of the EEVBlog YouTube channel. I found this post searching Trust PCB Manufacturers on Google and I found it very useful.
I was hopping someone could recommend me an affordable PCB Assembly house in Europe.

Thanks!

Abel.

[Howardlong]

Hello guys,

I'm new in the forum, although I'm long time follower of the EEVBlog YouTube channel. I found this post searching Trust PCB Manufacturers on Google and I found it very useful.
I was hopping someone could recommend me an affordable PCB Assembly house in Europe.

Thanks!

Abel.

Personal recommendation goes a very long way, plus one who you can reasonably regularly pop in to see face to face and press the flesh, and see the whites of their eyes: this is a business relationship, and there has to be mutual trust and understanding in that relationship.

The only way to make it work in China is either to go there yourself or use someone you inherently trust with local knowledge to act as an agent for you. There are fundamental cultural differences, and where there's a corner to be cut, you can bet your arse it'll be cut. There is no concept of gentlemen's agreements, if there is piss to be taken, it will be. A "promise" on paper means bugger all. You have to have representation there, making sure it's running smoothly. Any other way will be a disappointment. On the plus side, in my experiences they will deliver on time, it's just that when left on theor own what's delivered will not be what was agreed on paper.

I realise you're not in the UK but for those reading this who may be I have used HCD UK in Letchworth for my board assembly and board manufacture (they outsource the baords, but they do the board assembly) for over six years, and am happy to recommend them to anyone, but keep in mind my point that you need someone you can visit reasonably easily on a regular basis.

[pillovara]

Hello guys,

I'm new in the forum, although I'm long time follower of the EEVBlog YouTube channel. I found this post searching Trust PCB Manufacturers on Google and I found it very useful.
I was hopping someone could recommend me an affordable PCB Assembly house in Europe.

Thanks!

Abel.

Personal recommendation goes a very long way, plus one who you can reasonably regularly pop in to see face to face and press the flesh, and see the whites of their eyes: this is a business relationship, and there has to be mutual trust and understanding in that relationship.

The only way to make it work in China is either to go there yourself or use someone you inherently trust with local knowledge to act as an agent for you. There are fundamental cultural differences, and where there's a corner to be cut, you can bet your arse it'll be cut. There is no concept of gentlemen's agreements, if there is piss to be taken, it will be. A "promise" on paper means bugger all. You have to have representation there, making sure it's running smoothly. Any other way will be a disappointment. On the plus side, in my experiences they will deliver on time, it's just that when left on theor own what's delivered will not be what was agreed on paper.

I realise you're not in the UK but for those reading this who may be I have used HCD UK in Letchworth for my board assembly and board manufacture (they outsource the baords, but they do the board assembly) for over six years, and am happy to recommend them to anyone, but keep in mind my point that you need someone you can visit reasonably easily on a regular basis.

Thank you very much.As you mentioned, I'm not in UK but I will take a look anyway.