EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Projects, Designs, and Technical Stuff => Topic started by: Boris_yo on March 04, 2012, 06:37:50 pm
-
Hello everybody. I heard that lithium AA batteries are more powerful and last longer compared to alkalines. Today i had an opportunity to test the might of 3 brands - GP Ultra, Duracell and Energizer Ultimate Lithium where former 2 were alkalines. The rumors proved to be true and here is the video:
Energizer Ultimate Lithium - Feel The Difference! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMPQa-VjaoE#ws)
If you listened attentively, you could hear how each time i have changed to stronger battery, it worked faster and produced more noise. Tell me your thoughts and if there is anything i should know, let me know.
Thanks.
-
hm not exactly scientific. can't we at least have some data ?
-
Have edited my post. What data is missing to be precise?
-
Cost of each cell. Runtime until flat.
Capacity claimed for each cell, so that you can do an estimate of price per watt hour of energy.
The lithium batteries have a longer shelf life on average, but is is really worth the extra cost for them? For most low consumption jobs the cheaper cell will be best, and the high discharge loads are going to be very expensive if you are using primary cells, you would be better off using a rechargeable unit.
-
Grab a multimeter, measure the voltage at start for each.
Put it in series with the toothbrush and measure the mA that toothbrush demands...
Leave the brush running with each battery until each one gets depleted...
Or plug them in a digital camera and keep snapping pictures until camera shuts down.
-
Greetings EEVBees:
--In the last few years I have either repaired, or declared BER (Beyond Economical Repair) more than a dozen pieces of beloved equipment, cameras, GPS, Guitar Preamps, VTVMs, etc., that were destroyed, or nearly destroyed by Alkaline Batteries. So, while I have all of you knowledgeable folks gathered here, I have what I consider to be a rather important question. How likely are Lithium batteries to destroy the host device?
"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king"
Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus
1466 - 1536
Best Regards
Clear Ether
-
On top of all that.. Let's talk about religion, shall we?
Really trying to hold myself, to not say something very sarcastic...
Hello everybody. I heard that lithium AA batteries are more powerful and last longer compared to alkalines. Today i had an opportunity to test the might of 3 brands - GP Ultra, Duracell and Energizer Ultimate Lithium where former 2 were alkalines. The rumors proved to be true and here is the video:
If you listened attentively, you could hear how each time i have changed to stronger battery, it worked faster and produced more noise. Tell me your thoughts and if there is anything i should know, let me know.
Thanks.
By conclusion of this test the Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries should be nominated The Shonky Product of The Week on The Amp Hour show!
Greetings EEVBees:
--In the last few years I have either repaired, or declared BER (Beyond Economical Repair) more than a dozen pieces of beloved equipment, cameras, GPS, Guitar Preamps, VTVMs, etc., that were destroyed, or nearly destroyed by Alkaline Batteries. So, while I have all of you knowledgeable folks gathered here, I have what I consider to be a rather important question. How likely are Lithium batteries to destroy the host device?
"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king"
Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus
1466 - 1536
Best Regards
Clear Ether
Don't get me wrong, but I would really wanted to know how those devices that you've mentioned, could be destroyed by alkaline batteries? (old leaking batteries, perhaps?)
-
OK, let's lay it on the line:
Alkaline batteries leak.
Alkaline batteries leak!
Alkaline batteries leak, spill out corrosive liquid, and destroy things!
If you love your electronic gadgets, you will never put alkaline batteries in them. The only choices today are lithium primaries (like the Energizer lithium), or rechargeable batteries (like the eneloop). A possible third choice is "super heavy duty" zinc chloride cells, which somehow seem to last years without leaking (although in theory they could).
Just don't put alkaline batteries in anything you value. It isn't worth the risk.
-
Greetings EEVBees:
--Phil_ip1 has asked:
"Don't get me wrong, but I would really wanted to know how those devices that you've mentioned, could be destroyed by alkaline batteries? (old leaking batteries, perhaps?)"
--As unlikely as it may seem, in each case the item was destroyed when a case of alkaline batteries, out of the clear blue, fell on it suddenly, from a great height. Just kidding. "(old leaking batteries, perhaps?)" Bingo! This week's winner will be entered to win a Deerstalker Hat and a Calabash Pipe, in our No Sh*t Sherlock contest.
--I want to thank IanB for his forthright statement. I will never use alkaline batteries again, if i can avoid it. And, my thanks to Boris_yo. Silly me, in did not even know that one could buy lithium AA batteries.
"He didn't know where he was going. But he knew where he was wasn't it."
Lord Buckley 1906 1960
Best Regards
Clear Ether
-
Silly me, I did not even know that one could buy lithium AA batteries.
And the most wonderful property of those batteries is due to the manner of their construction, they will never leak. And they are also lighter than alkalines. And they do indeed last longer than alkalines in most applications as well.
So yeah, when you can buy a bargain pack of 20 alkaline AA cells for a few dollars, those lithium cells might seem a bit pricey. But just wait until those alkaline cells crap all over your prized electronics, and then see how much money you saved.
A word to the wise here: Energizer have "Ultimate" lithiums (high price) and "Advanced" lithiums (lower price). But for low to moderate loads the Advanced lithiums have exactly the same capacity as the Ultimate lithiums (the capacity depends on the amount of lithium in the cell, and both contain exactly the same amount of lithium). So unless you have a very demanding application, buy the cheaper Advanced lithium and save money.
-
Greetings EEVBees:
--I nominate the below quote by IanB for the best money saving tip of the year. Anyone who heeds it will save money and, heartaches. Well done.
And the most wonderful property of those batteries is due to the manner of their construction, they will never leak. And they are also lighter than alkalines. And they do indeed last longer than alkalines in most applications as well.
So yeah, when you can buy a bargain pack of 20 alkaline AA cells for a few dollars, those lithium cells might seem a bit pricey. But just wait until those alkaline cells crap all over your prized electronics, and then see how much money you saved.
A word to the wise here: Energizer have "Ultimate" lithiums (high price) and "Advanced" lithiums (lower price). But for low to moderate loads the Advanced lithiums have exactly the same capacity as the Ultimate lithiums (the capacity depends on the amount of lithium in the cell, and both contain exactly the same amount of lithium). So unless you have a very demanding application, buy the cheaper Advanced lithium and save money.
[/quote]
"I'm all in favor of the democratic principle that one idiot is as good as one genius, but I draw the line when someone takes the next step and concludes that two idiots are better than one genius."
Leo Szilard 1898 - 1964
Best Regards
Clear Ether
-
These energizer lithium cells have a couple of "features" that may or may not make them desirable.
First off, they are 1.8x Volts when fresh... a bit more than regular AA cells and can be a problem with some devices.
They do last longer than regular AA cells, almost twice as long, in my experience.
And most importantly to me, they don't mind the cold near as much.... So it's the battery I place in my AA powered flashlight in the car... it works even if it's a balmy -40c in the sun. :P
I don't care for the price though.
Regards
Christian
-
FYI guys, I have Energizer Industrial 9V Lithiums in sealed foil pouch , 1 year to expiry, leaking blue stuff. I don't know if it's corrosive but smells good.
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l522.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l522.pdf)
-
FYI guys, I have Energizer Industrial 9V Lithiums in sealed foil pouch , 1 year to expiry, leaking blue stuff. I don't know if it's corrosive but smells good.
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l522.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l522.pdf)
Not a good thing ... Must be Manganese Dioxide leaking even though lithium cells are sealed so tightly .
-
Yes, alkalines are death and should be avoided whenever possible. Still, for some applications like anything with a motor, they're the best choice. Always remove 'em when not in use. They'll leak with age and they'll also leak if drained down too far and left for any length of time. I have an answering machine that makes alkalines leak every time, so I measured the current draw vs voltage. Sure enough, when the battery voltage falls a bit, and the unit thinks the batteries are about to die, the current draw goes way up (like 10X) and drains them to the max. Then they start leaking in short order. Brilliant design :-[ I mostly have converted to NiMH, but the reduced voltage isn't right for things designed for higher and self discharge is still an issue. The good old heavy duty (LeClanche) batteries are cheap and still have their place, even though the manufacturers would rather sell you something more expensive.
-
What has surprised me is that no battery manufacturer (that I'm aware of) has bothered to make a 2XAA li-ion cell.
I'm talking about a single li-ion cell that is the same diameter as an AA dry-cell but twice as long (so it could replace two AA cells in some gear).
This would deliver 3.7V (instead of 3V from 2x1.5V cells) but would have an almost zero self-discharge and be fully rechargable. The use of the small over-charge/discharge circuits already found on some Li-Ion cells would make these a cheap and safe alternative to AA cells in some gear.
Who's going to patent that and make a small fortune -- I claim prior art! :-)
-
Or 2x1.5AA in the same length but twice as wide .
-
What has surprised me is that no battery manufacturer (that I'm aware of) has bothered to make a 2XAA li-ion cell.
I'm talking about a single li-ion cell that is the same diameter as an AA dry-cell but twice as long (so it could replace two AA cells in some gear).
This would deliver 3.7V (instead of 3V from 2x1.5V cells) but would have an almost zero self-discharge and be fully rechargable. The use of the small over-charge/discharge circuits already found on some Li-Ion cells would make these a cheap and safe alternative to AA cells in some gear.
Who's going to patent that and make a small fortune -- I claim prior art! :-)
There seems to be no point since the CR123A cell has pride of place in small battery, high power devices.
I actually look very hard for 2AA or 4AA devices because I know I can run them very well on eneloops. Unfortunately many times designers go for 3AAA instead. 3AAA is just about the most uneconomical power source going (but it is good for the battery manufacturers of course).
-
Unfortunately many times designers go for 3AAA instead. 3AAA is just about the most uneconomical power source going (but it is good for the battery manufacturers of course).
Ugh, I hate those, too. I see them more often in remote controls now than anywhere else. No telling whether a single Li-Ion (3.7 V) cell would power those, but that depends on the design. I'm thinking it's not likely for the majority of 'em. It'd be hard to justify the expense of boost circuitry and another regulator against the cost of alkaline or other types of batteries. I do like the NiMH rechargeable batteries on the market now though, except for the initial cost, and screwing people on the chargers.
-
Unfortunately many times designers go for 3AAA instead. 3AAA is just about the most uneconomical power source going (but it is good for the battery manufacturers of course).
Ugh, I hate those, too. I see them more often in remote controls now than anywhere else. No telling whether a single Li-Ion (3.7 V) cell would power those, but that depends on the design. I'm thinking it's not likely for the majority of 'em. It'd be hard to justify the expense of boost circuitry and another regulator against the cost of alkaline or other types of batteries. I do like the NiMH rechargeable batteries on the market now though, except for the initial cost, and screwing people on the chargers.
You know , the chargers have been out for a long time , the copies do it damn well .
-
You know , the chargers have been out for a long time , the copies do it damn well .
Oh yes, I do, but I was thinking of the ones I see at retail stores by Duracell, Energizer, etc. They're still too darn high to allow rechargeables to make any serious headway in the battery market, IMO.
-
You know , the chargers have been out for a long time , the copies do it damn well .
Oh yes, I do, but I was thinking of the ones I see at retail stores by Duracell, Energizer, etc. They're still too darn high to allow rechargeables to make any serious headway in the battery market, IMO.
Indeed . They are making scam bucks and losing business by doing that , or are they waiting to launch their li-ion cells and earn even more ( more as in A HELL LOT MORE ) cash by placing bullshit advertisement to make them sound more expensive then they are ? Energizer , GP , Duracell etc... has always been doing that .
-
What has surprised me is that no battery manufacturer (that I'm aware of) has bothered to make a 2XAA li-ion cell.
I've converted a bunch of AAA to AA converter shells into dummy-AAs and am doing exactly that: Replace a pair of AAs with a dummy and a LiIon. Works very well for a lot of equipment. It can be a tad strong for some, though. The LiIon starts at 4.2V, a bit more than the 3.2 of a pair of standard cells.
-
For what it's worth I've been using lithiums in my U1272A and HP 50g (power hungry graphing calculator).
While alkalines started dropping out after a few months on the HP and using the backlight on the Agilent would give low battery warnings the lithiums so far have been rock solid, lasting way longer (talking about 9 months vs. 3 for the calculator, 3 months of use so far with the DMM).
Bolding out product names has astroturfing written all over it but I think people should try reading the datasheets from energizer, they have some interesting data on the lower internal resistance, the lithium batteries don't actually have significantly higher capacity for low power use but they are a massive improvement for high current loads like flashlights and cameras.
-
I thought that alkaline cell were of leak proof construction, they certainly very rarely leak and only when left in a discharged state in the appliance for a long time, which is why I always remove them if not being used for some time.I have a flash gun that I purchased in 1975 that takes 4 AA cells I still have the original 4 cells and they still work the flash gun, mind you I use it very rarely.
-
I've had branded Alkaline cells leak after just a few months in some cases. They're mass produced trash these days. Even Duracell have gone downhill, and they used to be good (although I may be biased because I got bulk boxes of them for free, essentially unused.. the perks of family who work in hospitals).
-
I thought that alkaline cell were of leak proof construction, they certainly very rarely leak and only when left in a discharged state in the appliance for a long time, which is why I always remove them if not being used for some time.I have a flash gun that I purchased in 1975 that takes 4 AA cells I still have the original 4 cells and they still work the flash gun, mind you I use it very rarely.
It depends on which country you live in. In 40 years of living in Britain I never once saw an AA alkaline battery leak. But just a few years in the USA convinced me that AA alkalines leak always, all the time.
-
I've never had an alkaline battery leak here in Norway except really ancient devices with no-name batteries left for years, but then I usually change my batteries pro-actively to avoid these problems in the first place.
-
I may test out some different types of batteries with my dc electronic load sometime and post the results. Graphs and values are more scientific than the noise of a toothbrush
-
For the record, there are several LI rechargeable 9V batteries available. Ebay is the most likely source but I see All-Battery.com now carries Tenergy 9V 500mAh Li-ion Rechargeable Batteries http://goo.gl/KRNMU (http://goo.gl/KRNMU) which should have a long useful life. They do need a LI 9v charger though. I have seen higher capacity cells from Japan but they escape me at the moment.... I did see them on Ebay.
I have one of those 6 cell chargers that do LI and NiMH cells... I only have NiMH at the moment (Tenergy 200mAh low self discharge) and they work great.... Most 9V devices will run for a year between charges.
Regards
Christian
-
Despite the well-known leakage issues, some makers of expensive devices still recommend alkaline batteries only for some reason (for example, see the Fluke 28II manual). Technical reasons, like concerns about explosive failure of high energy batteries? Or just outdated and never updated testing?
It's a more annoying issue in cheaper and less often used meters (kept around for those case where multiple voltages have to be measured simultaneously). Usually they have no metal inserts for the screws, so you either leave the batteries in and risk the device, or take them out when not using them and destroy the plastic case with those self-tapping screws after a few times.
And indeed, you can never trust batteries completely. Recently had a number of Duracell Procell 4.5V batteries start leaking their electrolyte. Some had never been used, and this was more than a year before the expiration date on the packaging. It's not just discharged ones that fail, sometimes you just get a bad batch.
-
warranty statement on back panel of energizer 9v lithium primary:
(i think all energizer batteries have this statement, but im not sure...)
-
With self tapping screws and plastic cases I always do the following old tip. Place screw in hole. Place screwdriver tip into top of screw. Rotate screw as if you are undoing it until you feel the screw click into the thread it has previously cut. Screw in as normal, using the same thread cut into the plastic. Works well.
If the thread is totally work out replace it with a threaded screw, you can normally find a PC case screw that will fit in the housing, and which will roll itself a secure thread in the housing to hold it together. Otherwise take an old brass bushing out of old equipment and drill a hole to fit it in there, holding it in with some superglue if needed.