FRAM Card for HP8590 Series - Project

[Miti]

I start this thread for the FRAM card project that basically started here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/firmware-update-for-859xe-spectrum-analyzers/

[Miti]

On some of your questions...

I took apart one of the ROM personality cards of which I have a duplicate.  Much adhesive was used in its construction.  It probably still works, but it is not going back together again.  A couple of answers/observations:

- The card itself is 0.095" thick, cover to cover.

- The board is exactly 0.0175" thick at the gold fingers.  It seems unlikely you'll find that thickness at a reasonable cost.

I don't need to, I took out the card reader from one of the SA and a 0.8mm thick credit card size board fits perfect. It doesn't need to be an exact replica of the HP card. The parts would add no more than 1.2-1.3mm so the total thickness is well below 0.095".

- LWPOUT (37) is connected to GND (40).

- CST (38) and LSRAM (39) are both connected to +5A (1).  This is still consistent with my theory for LSRAM, but still no clues on CST.

- VBB (2) is connected to +5A (1) through a 10k, but also goes to the larger of the two chips on the board.

I will post a front and back photo tomorrow of the board.  It's much shorter than the card and has two epoxy blob chips on it.

Please do, I'll have to digest a bit these signals but I think I can see the logic. LSRAM low for the SRAM board, high for ROM board, LWPOUT is low so it is permanently WP being ROM, etc.

The practical use is to place a copy of a personality card onto an SRAM/FRAM card.  The personality cards are often lost, making the installed HW partially or fully unusable (example: quasi-peak detector option 103).

If a personality card is loaded on an SA, all DLPs can be saved to a large enough SRAM card, moved to a different analyzer, and then reloaded on the destination analyzer.  But as you know, just moving the DLPs is not always sufficient to be able to fully use all the personalities (EMC personality limit lines, for example).

I'm not aware of any protection scheme on the cards.  A custom-made programmer with the right socket I expect can easily make a 100% duplicate of the card.

But then, a problem is where to get a socket.  As far as I know, it is a special HP thing.  It exists in the HP 48 calculator, the 859x SA series, and the HP 85620A mass storage module which fits the 8560 series SA.  There may be other products.  I'm not familiar enough with all of HPs products to identify all of them.

If one wanted to build a programmer, the HP 85620A might be a good parts mule as it can be had for US$50 to $60.  But I think the number of people who are going to go out of their way to build such a device for either reading or writing is small.  If there was a way to turn an 859xE into a card reader/writer with a pure software solution, it would have a much wider appeal.  If such a piece of software existed, people who have specific personality cards could offer the images of whatever they have so that others can replace their lost cards by copying the image onto a FRAM card.

There are TH or SMT edge connectors with 40+ pins, 1.27mm pitch.

[MarkL]

Here is the inside of a ROM card, bottom and top.  The bottom is the side that makes contact with the connector and faces down when inserting the card.  The top has gold fingers too, maybe for manufacturing reasons.  The top also has tiny traces leading off the board, likely used for testing before it was cut from a carrier board.

There are some cavities in the case to accommodate the epoxy blobs.

...
There are TH or SMT edge connectors with 40+ pins, 1.27mm pitch.

Do these open the shutter?

How does the SA connector open the shutter?  Does it grab it by the sides?

[Miti]

Do these open the shutter?

How does the SA connector open the shutter?  Does it grab it by the sides?

It has two metallic triangular push things and some plastic stoppers. Is it locked otherwise, if you try to push it with the finger or with two pens?

[Miti]

What is the biggest RAM size that 8590 series can support? I can find HP 85705A 512KB. Is there a 1MB card, maybe supported by other SAs but not by 8590 series?

Edit: Ok, these cards are only used with HP8590 series, 512KB maximum supported, 1 FRAM chip is enough.

[MarkL]

Do these open the shutter?

How does the SA connector open the shutter?  Does it grab it by the sides?

It has two metallic triangular push things and some plastic stoppers. Is it locked otherwise, if you try to push it with the finger or with two pens?

The shutter is not locked, but the springs on both sides inside the card are not trivial to overcome with your fingers.  And you have to push both sides at the same time or the shutter gets crooked and binds.  I hadn't noticed the slots in the side of the card before.  The small metallic things in the connector guides are clearly sliding into the slots on the side of the card, engaging the shutter on each side, and pushing it out of the way as the card is inserted.

The connectors you were citing I'm guessing don't have this shutter opener?

[Miti]

The connectors you were citing I'm guessing don't have this shutter opener?

No, they don't. I was thinking of an old PCI connector for example. If you say it is not locked, the plastic edge could push it back.
Can you post some pictures with the edge slots?
Does the instrument shows anything on the display when the card is inserted? Is the size auto-detected?

[MarkL]

The connectors you were citing I'm guessing don't have this shutter opener?

No, they don't. I was thinking of an old PCI connector for example. If you say it is not locked, the plastic edge could push it back.
Can you post some pictures with the edge slots?
Does the instrument shows anything on the display when the card is inserted? Is the size auto-detected?

The shutter is 0.0057" thick (metal + clear plastic tape).  Besides being extremely thin, it also sits in a recess in the case so it is flush with the surface of the card bottom when closed.  It does not appear possible for something to push it out of the way along its length.  It has to be done from the sides.

The SA doesn't say anything when a card is inserted.

It does know how big the card is.  When displaying the card catalog, the first line will show "HP859X <#recs>", where "<#recs>" is the number of 256-byte records.  The 32k cards shows 128, and the 128k cards show 512 for both RAM and ROM cards.  All the RAM and ROM cards I have are either 32k or 128k, so I don't have any examples of anything bigger.  I don't know how the SA determines the size.  Maybe CST?

Some further digging into the HP 48X calculator might uncover how the SA knows the size.  I would bet it uses the same method since the cards are almost identical.

[Miti]

Is the card formatted? Maybe it reads some boot record.

[MarkL]

Is the card formatted? Maybe it reads some boot record.

Maybe.  The SA does have a "Format Card" menu item.  Since it's going to format the card anyway, it could do some destructive write/reads to figure out the card size, and then embed the size in the card's file system.

A logic analyzer clipped onto the card pins could probably get to the bottom of it pretty quickly

[Miti]

A very preliminary schematic and PCB.

[Miti]

Schematic updated. I've added a switch HI/LO for CST for testing because I don't know what to do with it.

@MarkL  Can you please take a look?

[Miti]

Another small change to the schematic.

[hp3310a]

Taking from the firmware thread that this is going well, what would be required to create a copy of a personality card? Don't think the SA would be suitable for this, would it?

[Miti]

Taking from the firmware thread that this is going well, what would be required to create a copy of a personality card? Don't think the SA would be suitable for this, would it?

A personality card. I intend to make a hardware reader/writer using a PCI connector and a memory programmer, for now. Details to come, stay tuned.

[hp3310a]

Taking from the firmware thread that this is going well, what would be required to create a copy of a personality card? Don't think the SA would be suitable for this, would it?

A personality card. I intend to make a hardware reader/writer using a PCI connector and a memory programmer, for now. Details to come, stay tuned.

I want to try putting together a Arduino-based reader that could backup the complete contents of the card. I have a card reader coming in to salvage the connector from and will order some shift registers for addressing. Do you have any information on how to access/clock/read the memory? This may be obvious but I've never done this.

[Miti]

I want to try putting together a Arduino-based reader that could backup the complete contents of the card. I have a card reader coming in to salvage the connector from and will order some shift registers for addressing. Do you have any information on how to access/clock/read the memory? This may be obvious but I've never done this.

As I said before, I’m trying to do the same thing but using a memory programmer like TL866 II Plus or Xeltek or whatever, instead of Arduino. Have some patience.

[Miti]

And here it is, it works! My very own 512KB FRAM card. I copied the EMC personality from one SA to the other. It needs a version 2, I forgot some pull up/ down resistors but otherwise no issues.
Next step, the reader/ programmer.

Edit: @MarkL, not sure if you saw these questions in the other thread.

You said you have some ROM cards. What are they loaded with? You disassembled a duplicate. Would you be willing to ship it to me as is for some experiments, if now that my FRAM card is successful?
From a legal perspective, would it be legal to create some dumps of these cards and share with the community? Would HP, Agilent, Keysight have any interests in these instruments anymore?

[MarkL]

And here it is, it works! My very own 512KB FRAM card. I copied the EMC personality from one SA to the other. It needs a version 2, I forgot some pull up/ down resistors but otherwise no issues.
Next step, the reader/ programmer.

Edit: @MarkL, not sure if you saw these questions in the other thread.

You said you have some ROM cards. What are they loaded with? You disassembled a duplicate. Would you be willing to ship it to me as is for some experiments, if now that my FRAM card is successful?
From a legal perspective, would it be legal to create some dumps of these cards and share with the community? Would HP, Agilent, Keysight have any interests in these instruments anymore?

I did, but am dealing with some other issues right now.  Let me at least answer your questions...

Yes, I can send you the duplicate with all the parts, except for one of the cover springs.  It flew off somewhere and I couldn't find it.

As for the legality of making copies, I have to start by saying I'm not a lawyer.  Copying of the firmware EPROMs is a similar operation.  Those images say they are copyright too, but there are multiple sources hosting those images, and people are grabbing those images and upgrading their SAs.  I've never read about objections from HPAK.

The personality cards I have all say copyright on them, so I think it's a very similar situation.

It wouldn't hurt to ask Keysight if it's ok to make copies, or even create a library of vintage personality cards, so that hobbyists can enable hardware options that they paid for in their used SA equipment, but don't possess the card.  The SAs originally came with the cards to enable the hardware options, and the cards were separated from the equipment and then lost (probably tossed in a drawer somewhere).  This is like making a backup copy.  They may be ok with that.  There is precedent of Agilent granting non-commercial use of licensed options for old equipment (16700 series logic analyzer), but honestly I don't know where to even start asking them.

Or you can take the approach of doing it and then asking for forgiveness if they get mad.  It seems to be the internet way.  When Tektronix didn't like duplication of license keys for TDS3000 scopes, they issued a take-down notice to the offending web site.  That, of course, invoked the Streisand effect, with the result that many web sites duplicated all the information.  There's also a person on this forum that generates license keys for an old model of Agilent signal generator.  He's still doing it, as far as I know.

[Miti]

Yes, I can send you the duplicate with all the parts, except for one of the cover springs.  It flew off somewhere and I couldn't find it.

Thanks Mark, I only need the board, no mechanicals. I will PM you my address.

[Miti]

And the programmer works as well. I used a PCI connector, a 74LVC14 to invert the CS which in active high in the SA, and the TL866II Plus programmer. I've attached some screen shots.
The PCI connector was just for proof of concept, I tried three connectors from scrap PC motherboards, and only one accepted the thicker card, they normally expect 1.6mm thick board.
To make a programmer we need a proper connector and I found this: https://www.pishop.ca/product/breadboard-breakout-for-bbc-micro-bit/
that has this type of connector: https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/maker-emporium-ltd/PIS-1246/10315741
It's worth a try, if it can take the card as is ok, if not a bit of surgery, grind the wall without contacts and 3D print a wider opening that goes around it.
Sure enough it needs external 5V because none of my programmers, TL866 or Xeltek SP5000, supply 5V but about 4.6V and my reset monitor does not release the reset line. I'm not sure if the original HP cards care about that.

[Tony_G]

Hey Miti - I've been meaning to ask, does this project emulate the HP 8570xA memory cards? I would assume so but I just wanted to check - I don't have a 8591 but I do have the mass Memory Module on the back of my 8563E

TonyG

[Miti]

Hey Miti - I've been meaning to ask, does this project emulate the HP 8570xA memory cards? I would assume so but I just wanted to check - I don't have a 8591 but I do have the mass Memory Module on the back of my 8563E

TonyG

Yes, from my understanding they use the same cards. I read on Keysight's site "One Keysight 85700A 32K-byte RAM memory card is supplied with the mass memory module". Whether this card with 512KB capacity, equivalent to 85705, is accepted or not, that's TBD. MarkL may know.

Edit: If 512KB is not supported, it can be easily modified to any size.

[Tony_G]

Thanks - I wonder if this info might be of any use in extracting stuff from the 8590 cards - I used it to extract the DLP from the ROM image on KO4BB for the my 8563E.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hp856xe-hackers-corner/msg5980427/#msg5980427

TonyG

[MarkL]

Yes, I can send you the duplicate with all the parts, except for one of the cover springs.  It flew off somewhere and I couldn't find it.

Thanks Mark, I only need the board, no mechanicals. I will PM you my address.

Card is on the way.

I know you didn't want the outer shell and other mechanicals, but I taped it back together to add protection for the PCB.  The PCB is *really* thin and I don't think would tolerate much flexing and other abuse from the postal service.  You'll see when you receive it.  It probably goes without saying, but I don't need it back.