Author Topic: good 9V battery  (Read 15069 times)

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Offline Nusa

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2017, 01:47:40 am »
If whoever designed the meter chose an inadequate power source for their design, that doesn't transfer any blame to the battery itself. So long as it's delivering what it was designed to deliver, it's doing it's job.
 
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Offline HKJ

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2017, 09:17:30 am »
For comparing voltage from different types of 9V batteries I will suggest my comparator:
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries9V/Common9Vcomparator.php

It includes most 9V chemistries and types, including 3 different LiIon batteries, Zinc-Carbon, Alkaline and both 7 & 8 cell NiMH
 
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Offline EndlessSummer

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2019, 01:14:04 pm »
Ahhh, yes....
The thread is dead as the batteries it's about.
It's the only one that came up in my google search for Carbon Zinc battery usage in the Fluke 87 series meters though.
Does anyone happen to know the reason behind Fluke's specifying Carbon Zinc batteries for these meters?
Thanks
 

Offline ogden

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2019, 01:41:26 pm »
It's the only one that came up in my google search for Carbon Zinc battery usage in the Fluke 87 series meters though.
Does anyone happen to know the reason behind Fluke's specifying Carbon Zinc batteries for these meters?

They *allow* you to use not only Alkaline but Zinc-Carbon. User manual of 87V says:

Quote
Replace the battery with a 9 V battery (NEDA A1604, 6F22, or 006P).


Specifying NEDA A1604 w/o letter suffix means that you may use any type: Alkaline, Zinc-Carbon and Lithium (non-rechargeable).
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 01:43:58 pm by ogden »
 

Offline richnormand

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2019, 06:43:40 pm »
before blaming the battery it would be useful to ascertain that the meter has a hard on/off switch that completely cuts off the battery circuit. If not, you will have to measure the standby current.

Years ago I had a cheap LCR meter that would eat batteries, even if I was not using it much. It had a soft "on" switch with an auto-off feature. The culprit turned out to be a leaky electrolytic capacitor that was continuously draining the battery 24/7...

Repair, Renew, Reuse, Recycle, Rebuild, Reduce, Recover, Repurpose, Restore, Refurbish, Recondition, Renovate
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2019, 07:27:14 pm »
If the battery in your meter is going flat in storage then there is likely something wrong with the meter.

I often use the backlight on my Fluke 87 so I've been using LSD NiMH 9V batteries for years. The first one I got came from Harbor Freight and it works fine. More recently I've bought others from Amazon, I haven't bought disposable batteries in years.
 

Offline DDunfield

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2019, 10:11:11 pm »
before blaming the battery it would be useful to ascertain that the meter has a hard on/off switch that completely cuts off the battery circuit. If not, you will have to measure the standby current.

Years ago I had a cheap LCR meter that would eat batteries, even if I was not using it much. It had a soft "on" switch with an auto-off feature. The culprit turned out to be a leaky electrolytic capacitor that was continuously draining the battery 24/7...

The presence of a physical ON/OFF switch does not always mean no "off" power drain. Sometimes this is because the designer wants to make sure the device can "do something" before powering down (or perhaps just power down things in the right order) - so the physical switch is still "soft". Not that uncommon.

But I did run into a case that I just can't fathom!

I got a little bluetooth camera/music remote powered by a CR2032 battery - handy while travelling. Used it on a trip, turned off the physical power switch and left it in my kit till the next time I traveled (about 6 months), and found it completely dead. I thought - ok, they give you a really crappy battery. Replaced it with a new/good cell, everything worked fine ... turn it off, and tried it again three months later and guess what! - it was dead!

Took it apart to see if it was really a soft switch, and it wasn't - but what I found what that the power switch was SPDT, and in the OFF position, it placed a 10k resistor across the battery.
3V/10k = 0.3ma - assuming 250mah capacity of a CR2032 that's 833 hours ... about 35 days ... the battery goes dead in just over one month.

Quick swipe with an X-acto knife and now it does not go dead when turned off.

Can anyone think of a reason why they intentionally would keep a 0.3ma drain on the battery?

Dave
 

Offline bc888

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2019, 09:08:39 pm »


I have a bunch of the EBL lithium batteries as well which I moved too when the AA and AAA Duracells kept leaking I went all Eneloops except for the 9V. Bought the EBL charger with them. They charge up to 8.2XX range for me. The fear I have is that they may do an angry Lithium move and explode. I have not heard or read of a 9V lithium battery doing this, but I wonder if it's because they are not widely distributed.
 

Offline rdl

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2019, 01:07:14 am »
I've been using the EBL 9 volt rechargeables for a few years now. They have paid for themselves many times over and I've not had any problems. I just charged a couple and fresh off the charger,
 
NiMH = 10.15 volts
Li-Ion= 8.376 volts

The difference in capacity between the two is obvious.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2019, 01:37:14 am »
I think it's very unlikely for a small battery like that to explode, there just isn't enough stored energy for a spectacular fireball as you can get with a large LiPo. I've deliberately abused a few old pouch cells in that size range, now granted they were tired which is why I was disposing of them but they still had some capacity. They puffed up like a balloon and spewed a bunch of smoke but
I didn't get any flames.

That said, I'd avoid charging them unattended or near flammable materials. When lithium battery fires do happen it's most often while charging.
 

Offline bluey

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2020, 11:50:16 pm »
My Fluke 87 V1 runs fine on 8.4V Nimh, Toshiba.
 

Offline ali6x944

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2020, 11:30:43 am »
this might be of interest:

 
 

Offline HKJ

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2020, 12:50:16 pm »
There are two ways to make 9V batteries with LiIon cell:
1) A single cell or parallel cells (good for USB charging).
2) Two cells in series (Can be (more or less) charged on a standard 9V charger).

I have reviewed both types and done a tear down: https://lygte-info.dk/info/BatteryDisassembly9VLiIon%20UK.html
 

Offline wizard69

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2020, 12:30:22 am »
I see the ugly of alkaline batteries has turned up again.   What I'm wondering is what it would take for a company like Fluke, Keysight or whomever to switch over to 16850 cells?   Far too many instruments end up in the recycle bin due to alkaline batteries leaking.   I realize that the various 16850 chemistries complicate the usage some what but properly sized they should be a better solution than alkalines.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2020, 02:51:08 am »
if you have a suspicious instrument connect it to a lab power supply to see what it draws when its turned off. Sometimes things break so they use more current then normal and they will kill any battery.. it might just need a repair

So say you have a 1500mAH cell. If its drawing 1mA quiescent you will run it out in less then a year and have it explode. 100 microamps will drain it in 1.5 years, if you go by the REALLY basic explanation. Some designers don't know what their doing here. There is a limit of course because the battery has self discharge and you can only push the envelope so much before it becomes useless to lower current further.  If you leave it and drains a battery to nothing, of course it will leak. IMO 18650 is a bazooka solution. It might just hide the problem.

https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/take-advantage-of-ic-load-switches-features-to-safely-minimize-power-consumption

A good design of a soft switch instrument should only draw like <5uA.

Keep this in mind when you buy battery powered devices off ebay. They might be selling it because it started to kill batteries fast and it pissed someone off. It is a super big trap because people might just do a quick test with a power supply that has a 1mA resolution.. and 0 does not mean much here when talking batteries. If its drawing 1mA, it should kill the battery in only 2 months.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 03:02:00 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Pawelr98

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2020, 04:00:06 am »
For me two small Lipo cells in series is the way to go.
8.4V full, 6V flat.
Just around what is needed for a 9V battery replacement.

Or with some devices I just use 2x18650 in a bracket, attatched to the device.
Put it behind the meter, isolate it good and it won't die for a while.
I use this method with tired (sub-1000mAh) 18650 cells and cheap meters that usually go through 9V batteries rather quickly.

Generally speaking 14500 format would have been better for handheld meters.
No need to even change cases as it's the same format as standard AA battery.
There are even AAA sizes li-ion cells available (10440).
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2020, 04:56:09 am »
The analogy I get between 18650s used in lower power devices is like a word processor now requiring a super computer to run

 

Offline David Hess

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2020, 11:22:45 am »
I can't believe that in the 21st century we are unable to build a 9V battery that lasts more than a few months in a DMM.

We solved this problem in the 1980s with multimeters which operated for 2000 hours or more using the same 9V batteries that we have today.  It is not the battery's fault that you bought a junk multimeter.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2020, 11:39:24 am »
Panasonic

Quoting my self, Panasonic ? No more !  >:(



Details -> HERE

Offline Alex EisenhutTopic starter

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2020, 12:07:42 pm »
I can't believe that in the 21st century we are unable to build a 9V battery that lasts more than a few months in a DMM.

We solved this problem in the 1980s with multimeters which operated for 2000 hours or more using the same 9V batteries that we have today.  It is not the battery's fault that you bought a junk multimeter.

OK how do I return my Tektronix DMM249? Obviously Duracell makes a quality battery, so that's not the problem...  ::)

Ever since using alkaline batteries from the dollar store, my multimeter secretly redesigned itself at night using components it found on the floor. No more dead 0V batteries.

Hoarder of 8-bit Commodore relics and 1960s Tektronix 500-series stuff. Unconventional interior decorator.
 

Offline Pawelr98

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2020, 07:52:54 pm »
The analogy I get between 18650s used in lower power devices is like a word processor now requiring a super computer to run


I just use 18650 cells for everything that may require a battery change too often.
18650 cells are plentiful and inexpensive.
Electronic projects, radios, multimeters.

On low power devices I just run them for months , throw them on a charger once in a while (no matter what charge) and swap them with other devices that require more power.
Each cells should see more/less the same wear over time.

Even an analog oscilloscope I can run on 4x18650 + boost converter.
Scope requires around 500mA at 28V.
Comes handy in places where there's no mains available or when measuring mains-referenced voltages of various power converters (welders, VFD).
It also comes with a DMM function.

I'm the kind of person who solders an AA battery socket in the place of a button cell.
No need to keep around few types of batteries, low power device basically runs forever and replacement battery can be purchased anywhere.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 07:54:28 pm by Pawelr98 »
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2020, 12:37:33 am »
I can't believe that in the 21st century we are unable to build a 9V battery that lasts more than a few months in a DMM.

We solved this problem in the 1980s with multimeters which operated for 2000 hours or more using the same 9V batteries that we have today.  It is not the battery's fault that you bought a junk multimeter.

OK how do I return my Tektronix DMM249? Obviously Duracell makes a quality battery, so that's not the problem...  ::)

Ever since using alkaline batteries from the dollar store, my multimeter secretly redesigned itself at night using components it found on the floor. No more dead 0V batteries.

And I have a Tektronix DMM916 but these are later instruments which have shorter battery life.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2020, 07:14:00 pm »
Interesting, that Panasonic battery uses a plastic top end and metal bottom cap. Most 9V batteries use fiber for one or both of these, I think that absorbs a fair amount of any electrolyte that leaks.
 

Offline teddychn

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2020, 03:58:52 pm »
I generally try to avoid the use of alkali cells because of their  horrible leakage and crystallization problems...
So I would rather use a rechargeable battery or carbon-zinc battery aka heavy duty batteries because they are less prone to those problems and for carbon-zinc batteries they are much cheaper that alkaline batteries.
But it must be noted that the average capacity of the carbon-zinc batteries is a fraction of the poorest preforming alkaline...
A good source of info in this subject is this website:
http://rightbattery.com
Alkaline batteries leak when deep-discharged (And even then, not all brands leak as often. Duracell is the worst in this regard.). As long as you remove them when empty, they're fine.

Actually I bumped into a crystallized battery issues with unused Toshiba and Duracell's AAA akaline batteries. Both of them were slept in the drawer for less than a year.
So I guess this may not be a deep-discharged issue.

When I was a child. The cheap carbon-zinc battery always got leak problem. But I didn't see any similar problems on the akaline batteris which came out later. But the situation
are reversed now. I'm not pretty sure whether the carbon-zinc batteries are more stable than the akaline ones nowadays. Because I replaced most of my AA/AAA batteries to
rechargeable NiMH ones.

Since my experience is that some very old devices never get battery leakage issue, and many new devices always get this kind of proble. My suspection is that the leakage issue
might relate to the chemical reaction between batteries to some metal contacts.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: good 9V battery
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2020, 04:16:01 pm »
The analogy I get between 18650s used in lower power devices is like a word processor now requiring a super computer to run


I just use 18650 cells for everything that may require a battery change too often.
18650 cells are plentiful and inexpensive.
Electronic projects, radios, multimeters.

On low power devices I just run them for months , throw them on a charger once in a while (no matter what charge) and swap them with other devices that require more power.
Each cells should see more/less the same wear over time.

Even an analog oscilloscope I can run on 4x18650 + boost converter.
Scope requires around 500mA at 28V.
Comes handy in places where there's no mains available or when measuring mains-referenced voltages of various power converters (welders, VFD).
It also comes with a DMM function.

I'm the kind of person who solders an AA battery socket in the place of a button cell.
No need to keep around few types of batteries, low power device basically runs forever and replacement battery can be purchased anywhere.

bazooka vs fly
 


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