EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Projects, Designs, and Technical Stuff => Topic started by: Alex Eisenhut on March 25, 2017, 01:13:15 pm
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:palm:
I can't believe that in the 21st century we are unable to build a 9V battery that lasts more than a few months in a DMM.
I avoid Duracell because of their proven track record of dismal failure. So I bought a store brand alkaline 9V here in Montreal, it's the brand of a big chain pharmacy. It's usually good stuff.
This morning the DMM was dead. I took the battery out and measured with my analog meter and it's 0V. Flat line. Took the battery apart and it's 6 x 1.5V cells and they're all covered in white corrosion. >:(
We're talking 6 months here, with very little use.
Is there a known good brand?
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Procell
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Panasonic
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I am using 9V NiMH rechargeable for one of the DMMs. Look for the "Low Self Discharge" ones. They can stay charged for many months, maybe years. I have 2 of them, one in the DMM, one as backup. The price was about 2-3 times more then an alkaline, but I already have them for more then 2-3 years now. A charger is not mandatory to buy, they can be charged with a simple voltage source series with a resistor (charge for 7hr at 40mA). Bought them from LIDL supermarket.
The brand is Tronic, and they look like that:
https://www.lidl.de/de/tronic-ready-to-use-ni-mh-akkus/p205708 (https://www.lidl.de/de/tronic-ready-to-use-ni-mh-akkus/p205708)
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Maybe this is worth a try 2 x 600mAh lithium rechargeable with charger:
https://www.amazon.com/EBL%C2%AE-Battery-Charger-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B00EY6BZWS/tag=metaefficient-20?th=1 (https://www.amazon.com/EBL%C2%AE-Battery-Charger-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B00EY6BZWS/tag=metaefficient-20?th=1)
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I took apart a dead one the other day just to get the 9V terminal I was surprised to see the top of the battery covered in a waxy material. One of the contacts just had a pointy crown to it. The press of the battery case was supposed to make the contact.
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Alkaline batteries will leak if discharged, so get 'em out the minute they're drained. What's the current draw of the meter? Does it go into sleep mode? My Fluke will go for years on a single battery of any brand and I use it almost every day.
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:palm:
I can't believe that in the 21st century we are unable to build a 9V battery that lasts more than a few months in a DMM.
I avoid Duracell because of their proven track record of dismal failure. So I bought a store brand alkaline 9V here in Montreal, it's the brand of a big chain pharmacy. It's usually good stuff.
This morning the DMM was dead. I took the battery out and measured with my analog meter and it's 0V. Flat line. Took the battery apart and it's 6 x 1.5V cells and they're all covered in white corrosion. >:(
We're talking 6 months here, with very little use.
Is there a known good brand?
Of course we are able to build a 9 V battery that lasts more than a few months. My RadioShack 22-812 meters take a 9 V battery and the same battery will operate the meter for 2-3 years of intermittent use with no trouble at all.
You need to ask not about the battery, but about the meter.
What meter is it?
What is the quiescent battery drain when the meter is switched off? Have you measured it?
Does the meter have a soft power switch or a physical one? Soft or standby power off switches continue to drain the battery.
How much are you using the meter over the six months? Are you using it a lot, or is it just sitting on a shelf?
Usually, when there is excessive battery drain it is not the battery that is at fault.
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I'm also curious what make and model multimeter you have.
Some earlier generations of the Fluke 170 series multimeter had a problem and drained the battery. See
http://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=264761 (http://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=264761)
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My Fluke 79III goes for many years when used daily with an Energizer 9V alkaline battery, not a no-name-brand (Chinese?) battery that was sitting in a drug store for years.
The Fluke turns itself off when it detects a long pause.
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I can't believe that in the 21st century we are unable to build a 9V battery that lasts more than a few months in a DMM.
[...]
Is there a known good brand?
I'm gonna agree with the others here who place the blame on the meter, not the battery.
My Fluke 87V that I bought two years ago is still on the Energizer battery it shipped with.
As for brands, I've pretty much completely switched to IKEA alkaline batteries. They used to be made by Varta, though they no longer carry any OEM info. But they seem to work well, and they're a fraction of the cost of name-brand alkalines. So even if they only lasted half as long they'd still be far cheaper, but I haven't found any perfomance issues with them at all. .
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I generally try to avoid the use of alkali cells because of their horrible leakage and crystallization problems...
So I would rather use a rechargeable battery or carbon-zinc battery aka heavy duty batteries because they are less prone to those problems and for carbon-zinc batteries they are much cheaper that alkaline batteries.
But it must be noted that the average capacity of the carbon-zinc batteries is a fraction of the poorest preforming alkaline...
A good source of info in this subject is this website:
http://rightbattery.com (http://rightbattery.com)
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My early 90's Fluke 87 eats batteries for lunch (every 3 months or so). I rarely use it because I have multiple 34401's on the bench and it seems like every time I do power up the 87 it needs a battery.
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I notice that Duracell and Energizer cylindrical No-MH rechargeable batteries are both made in Japan (maybe by Panasonic/Sanyo?) and Energizer 9V alkaline batteries are made in Germany (by Varta?).
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:palm:
I can't believe that in the 21st century we are unable to build a 9V battery that lasts more than a few months in a DMM.
I avoid Duracell because of their proven track record of dismal failure. So I bought a store brand alkaline 9V here in Montreal, it's the brand of a big chain pharmacy. It's usually good stuff.
This morning the DMM was dead. I took the battery out and measured with my analog meter and it's 0V. Flat line. Took the battery apart and it's 6 x 1.5V cells and they're all covered in white corrosion. >:(
We're talking 6 months here, with very little use.
Is there a known good brand?
Think a minute. Is there any other reason that a battery could be drained unacceptably quickly? If so, why have you discounted the other reason?
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I generally try to avoid the use of alkali cells because of their horrible leakage and crystallization problems...
So I would rather use a rechargeable battery or carbon-zinc battery aka heavy duty batteries because they are less prone to those problems and for carbon-zinc batteries they are much cheaper that alkaline batteries.
But it must be noted that the average capacity of the carbon-zinc batteries is a fraction of the poorest preforming alkaline...
A good source of info in this subject is this website:
http://rightbattery.com (http://rightbattery.com)
Alkaline batteries leak when deep-discharged (And even then, not all brands leak as often. Duracell is the worst in this regard.). As long as you remove them when empty, they're fine.
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Maybe this is worth a try 2 x 600mAh lithium rechargeable with charger:
https://www.amazon.com/EBL%C2%AE-Battery-Charger-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B00EY6BZWS/tag=metaefficient-20?th=1 (https://www.amazon.com/EBL%C2%AE-Battery-Charger-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B00EY6BZWS/tag=metaefficient-20?th=1)
The EBL lithium batteries are great. I have 10 of them, and they all meet or exceed the rated 600mAh capacity. If you buy them on eBay, you can get them for $2-3 each.
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My early 90's Fluke 87 eats batteries for lunch (every 3 months or so).
@Jester,
If you would like help troubleshooting this, start a new thread and I can offer suggestions on why this may be happening. The Fluke 80 series I should be drawing around 9uA when the rotary switch is in the off position.
See
http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-83-dmm-repair/ (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-83-dmm-repair/)
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I generally try to avoid the use of alkali cells because of their horrible leakage and crystallization problems...
So I would rather use a rechargeable battery or carbon-zinc battery aka heavy duty batteries because they are less prone to those problems and for carbon-zinc batteries they are much cheaper that alkaline batteries.
But it must be noted that the average capacity of the carbon-zinc batteries is a fraction of the poorest preforming alkaline...
A good source of info in this subject is this website:
http://rightbattery.com (http://rightbattery.com)
Alkaline batteries leak when deep-discharged (And even then, not all brands leak as often. Duracell is the worst in this regard.). As long as you remove them when empty, they're fine.
sadly enough it is true, the most expensive leak the most!!!
also how could Alkaline batteries leak? I mean why do they leak? what chemicals inside the cell could cause the leak?
I know it is NH4Cl that dissolves away the Zn casing in Carbon-Zinc batteries, that's way the old batteries used to leak...
but now it is some what leak resistant, I have not seen a catastrophically leaking carbon-zinc batteries in my life, especially because Panasonic batteries are well belt :)
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The EBL lithium batteries are great. I have 10 of them, and they all meet or exceed the rated 600mAh capacity. If you buy them on eBay, you can get them for $2-3 each.
What output voltage do they have? (do not find a datasheet).
2 cells so 6-8.4 V or more?
with best regards
Andreas
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The EBL lithium batteries are great. I have 10 of them, and they all meet or exceed the rated 600mAh capacity. If you buy them on eBay, you can get them for $2-3 each.
What output voltage do they have? (do not find a datasheet).
2 cells so 6-8.4 V or more?
8.4-8.5V charged, 6.0V cutoff
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also how could Alkaline batteries leak? I mean why do they leak? what chemicals inside the cell could cause the leak?
Under certain circumstances chemical reactions inside an alkaline cell can produce gas bubbles which pressurize the inside of the cell and force electrolyte out through the seals.
Zinc chloride cells do not produce gas bubbles in the same way, so as long as the cell or battery is contained within a sealed outer shell it will not generally leak.
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I was going to buy a few EBL lithium batteries, if most of their running voltage is only about 7.2V ( 2x3.6 ) I'm glad I didn't now!
I settled for 250mAh long shelf life Ni-Mh from 7dayshop.com which are fine - so far.
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A lot of 9V batteries have 6 AAAA batteries inside. I took one apart and was transporting this string of small cells when one exploded out of my hand! I'd prefer them to leak slowly rather than quickly.
It was probably a Duracell.
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I was going to buy a few EBL lithium batteries, if most of their running voltage is only about 7.2V ( 2x3.6 ) I'm glad I didn't now!
I settled for 250mAh long shelf life Ni-Mh from 7dayshop.com which are fine - so far.
I think that if you compare to a 6 cell NiMH battery, the EBL lithium will always have a higher voltage during discharge...
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If whoever designed the meter chose an inadequate power source for their design, that doesn't transfer any blame to the battery itself. So long as it's delivering what it was designed to deliver, it's doing it's job.
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For comparing voltage from different types of 9V batteries I will suggest my comparator:
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries9V/Common9Vcomparator.php (http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries9V/Common9Vcomparator.php)
It includes most 9V chemistries and types, including 3 different LiIon batteries, Zinc-Carbon, Alkaline and both 7 & 8 cell NiMH
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Ahhh, yes....
The thread is dead as the batteries it's about.
It's the only one that came up in my google search for Carbon Zinc battery usage in the Fluke 87 series meters though.
Does anyone happen to know the reason behind Fluke's specifying Carbon Zinc batteries for these meters?
Thanks
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It's the only one that came up in my google search for Carbon Zinc battery usage in the Fluke 87 series meters though.
Does anyone happen to know the reason behind Fluke's specifying Carbon Zinc batteries for these meters?
They *allow* you to use not only Alkaline but Zinc-Carbon. User manual of 87V says:
Replace the battery with a 9 V battery (NEDA A1604, 6F22, or 006P).
Specifying NEDA A1604 w/o letter suffix means that you may use any type: Alkaline, Zinc-Carbon and Lithium (non-rechargeable).
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before blaming the battery it would be useful to ascertain that the meter has a hard on/off switch that completely cuts off the battery circuit. If not, you will have to measure the standby current.
Years ago I had a cheap LCR meter that would eat batteries, even if I was not using it much. It had a soft "on" switch with an auto-off feature. The culprit turned out to be a leaky electrolytic capacitor that was continuously draining the battery 24/7...
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If the battery in your meter is going flat in storage then there is likely something wrong with the meter.
I often use the backlight on my Fluke 87 so I've been using LSD NiMH 9V batteries for years. The first one I got came from Harbor Freight and it works fine. More recently I've bought others from Amazon, I haven't bought disposable batteries in years.
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before blaming the battery it would be useful to ascertain that the meter has a hard on/off switch that completely cuts off the battery circuit. If not, you will have to measure the standby current.
Years ago I had a cheap LCR meter that would eat batteries, even if I was not using it much. It had a soft "on" switch with an auto-off feature. The culprit turned out to be a leaky electrolytic capacitor that was continuously draining the battery 24/7...
The presence of a physical ON/OFF switch does not always mean no "off" power drain. Sometimes this is because the designer wants to make sure the device can "do something" before powering down (or perhaps just power down things in the right order) - so the physical switch is still "soft". Not that uncommon.
But I did run into a case that I just can't fathom!
I got a little bluetooth camera/music remote powered by a CR2032 battery - handy while travelling. Used it on a trip, turned off the physical power switch and left it in my kit till the next time I traveled (about 6 months), and found it completely dead. I thought - ok, they give you a really crappy battery. Replaced it with a new/good cell, everything worked fine ... turn it off, and tried it again three months later and guess what! - it was dead!
Took it apart to see if it was really a soft switch, and it wasn't - but what I found what that the power switch was SPDT, and in the OFF position, it placed a 10k resistor across the battery.
3V/10k = 0.3ma - assuming 250mah capacity of a CR2032 that's 833 hours ... about 35 days ... the battery goes dead in just over one month.
Quick swipe with an X-acto knife and now it does not go dead when turned off.
Can anyone think of a reason why they intentionally would keep a 0.3ma drain on the battery?
Dave
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I have a bunch of the EBL lithium batteries as well which I moved too when the AA and AAA Duracells kept leaking I went all Eneloops except for the 9V. Bought the EBL charger with them. They charge up to 8.2XX range for me. The fear I have is that they may do an angry Lithium move and explode. I have not heard or read of a 9V lithium battery doing this, but I wonder if it's because they are not widely distributed.
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I've been using the EBL 9 volt rechargeables for a few years now. They have paid for themselves many times over and I've not had any problems. I just charged a couple and fresh off the charger,
NiMH = 10.15 volts
Li-Ion= 8.376 volts
The difference in capacity between the two is obvious.
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I think it's very unlikely for a small battery like that to explode, there just isn't enough stored energy for a spectacular fireball as you can get with a large LiPo. I've deliberately abused a few old pouch cells in that size range, now granted they were tired which is why I was disposing of them but they still had some capacity. They puffed up like a balloon and spewed a bunch of smoke but
I didn't get any flames.
That said, I'd avoid charging them unattended or near flammable materials. When lithium battery fires do happen it's most often while charging.
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My Fluke 87 V1 runs fine on 8.4V Nimh, Toshiba.
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this might be of interest:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR_RusM99no (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR_RusM99no)
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There are two ways to make 9V batteries with LiIon cell:
1) A single cell or parallel cells (good for USB charging).
2) Two cells in series (Can be (more or less) charged on a standard 9V charger).
I have reviewed both types and done a tear down: https://lygte-info.dk/info/BatteryDisassembly9VLiIon%20UK.html (https://lygte-info.dk/info/BatteryDisassembly9VLiIon%20UK.html)
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I see the ugly of alkaline batteries has turned up again. What I'm wondering is what it would take for a company like Fluke, Keysight or whomever to switch over to 16850 cells? Far too many instruments end up in the recycle bin due to alkaline batteries leaking. I realize that the various 16850 chemistries complicate the usage some what but properly sized they should be a better solution than alkalines.
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if you have a suspicious instrument connect it to a lab power supply to see what it draws when its turned off. Sometimes things break so they use more current then normal and they will kill any battery.. it might just need a repair
So say you have a 1500mAH cell. If its drawing 1mA quiescent you will run it out in less then a year and have it explode. 100 microamps will drain it in 1.5 years, if you go by the REALLY basic explanation. Some designers don't know what their doing here. There is a limit of course because the battery has self discharge and you can only push the envelope so much before it becomes useless to lower current further. If you leave it and drains a battery to nothing, of course it will leak. IMO 18650 is a bazooka solution. It might just hide the problem.
https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/take-advantage-of-ic-load-switches-features-to-safely-minimize-power-consumption (https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/take-advantage-of-ic-load-switches-features-to-safely-minimize-power-consumption)
A good design of a soft switch instrument should only draw like <5uA.
Keep this in mind when you buy battery powered devices off ebay. They might be selling it because it started to kill batteries fast and it pissed someone off. It is a super big trap because people might just do a quick test with a power supply that has a 1mA resolution.. and 0 does not mean much here when talking batteries. If its drawing 1mA, it should kill the battery in only 2 months.
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For me two small Lipo cells in series is the way to go.
8.4V full, 6V flat.
Just around what is needed for a 9V battery replacement.
Or with some devices I just use 2x18650 in a bracket, attatched to the device.
Put it behind the meter, isolate it good and it won't die for a while.
I use this method with tired (sub-1000mAh) 18650 cells and cheap meters that usually go through 9V batteries rather quickly.
Generally speaking 14500 format would have been better for handheld meters.
No need to even change cases as it's the same format as standard AA battery.
There are even AAA sizes li-ion cells available (10440).
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The analogy I get between 18650s used in lower power devices is like a word processor now requiring a super computer to run
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I can't believe that in the 21st century we are unable to build a 9V battery that lasts more than a few months in a DMM.
We solved this problem in the 1980s with multimeters which operated for 2000 hours or more using the same 9V batteries that we have today. It is not the battery's fault that you bought a junk multimeter.
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Panasonic
Quoting my self, Panasonic ? No more ! >:(
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yara2-9v-alkaline-cells-do-leak-check-your-expensive-gears-often-guys/?action=dlattach;attach=695136;image)
Details -> HERE (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yara2-9v-alkaline-cells-do-leak-check-your-expensive-gears-often-guys/)
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I can't believe that in the 21st century we are unable to build a 9V battery that lasts more than a few months in a DMM.
We solved this problem in the 1980s with multimeters which operated for 2000 hours or more using the same 9V batteries that we have today. It is not the battery's fault that you bought a junk multimeter.
OK how do I return my Tektronix DMM249? Obviously Duracell makes a quality battery, so that's not the problem... ::)
Ever since using alkaline batteries from the dollar store, my multimeter secretly redesigned itself at night using components it found on the floor. No more dead 0V batteries.
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The analogy I get between 18650s used in lower power devices is like a word processor now requiring a super computer to run
I just use 18650 cells for everything that may require a battery change too often.
18650 cells are plentiful and inexpensive.
Electronic projects, radios, multimeters.
On low power devices I just run them for months , throw them on a charger once in a while (no matter what charge) and swap them with other devices that require more power.
Each cells should see more/less the same wear over time.
Even an analog oscilloscope I can run on 4x18650 + boost converter.
Scope requires around 500mA at 28V.
Comes handy in places where there's no mains available or when measuring mains-referenced voltages of various power converters (welders, VFD).
It also comes with a DMM function.
I'm the kind of person who solders an AA battery socket in the place of a button cell.
No need to keep around few types of batteries, low power device basically runs forever and replacement battery can be purchased anywhere.
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I can't believe that in the 21st century we are unable to build a 9V battery that lasts more than a few months in a DMM.
We solved this problem in the 1980s with multimeters which operated for 2000 hours or more using the same 9V batteries that we have today. It is not the battery's fault that you bought a junk multimeter.
OK how do I return my Tektronix DMM249? Obviously Duracell makes a quality battery, so that's not the problem... ::)
Ever since using alkaline batteries from the dollar store, my multimeter secretly redesigned itself at night using components it found on the floor. No more dead 0V batteries.
And I have a Tektronix DMM916 but these are later instruments which have shorter battery life.
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Interesting, that Panasonic battery uses a plastic top end and metal bottom cap. Most 9V batteries use fiber for one or both of these, I think that absorbs a fair amount of any electrolyte that leaks.
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I generally try to avoid the use of alkali cells because of their horrible leakage and crystallization problems...
So I would rather use a rechargeable battery or carbon-zinc battery aka heavy duty batteries because they are less prone to those problems and for carbon-zinc batteries they are much cheaper that alkaline batteries.
But it must be noted that the average capacity of the carbon-zinc batteries is a fraction of the poorest preforming alkaline...
A good source of info in this subject is this website:
http://rightbattery.com (http://rightbattery.com)
Alkaline batteries leak when deep-discharged (And even then, not all brands leak as often. Duracell is the worst in this regard.). As long as you remove them when empty, they're fine.
Actually I bumped into a crystallized battery issues with unused Toshiba and Duracell's AAA akaline batteries. Both of them were slept in the drawer for less than a year.
So I guess this may not be a deep-discharged issue.
When I was a child. The cheap carbon-zinc battery always got leak problem. But I didn't see any similar problems on the akaline batteris which came out later. But the situation
are reversed now. I'm not pretty sure whether the carbon-zinc batteries are more stable than the akaline ones nowadays. Because I replaced most of my AA/AAA batteries to
rechargeable NiMH ones.
Since my experience is that some very old devices never get battery leakage issue, and many new devices always get this kind of proble. My suspection is that the leakage issue
might relate to the chemical reaction between batteries to some metal contacts.
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The analogy I get between 18650s used in lower power devices is like a word processor now requiring a super computer to run
I just use 18650 cells for everything that may require a battery change too often.
18650 cells are plentiful and inexpensive.
Electronic projects, radios, multimeters.
On low power devices I just run them for months , throw them on a charger once in a while (no matter what charge) and swap them with other devices that require more power.
Each cells should see more/less the same wear over time.
Even an analog oscilloscope I can run on 4x18650 + boost converter.
Scope requires around 500mA at 28V.
Comes handy in places where there's no mains available or when measuring mains-referenced voltages of various power converters (welders, VFD).
It also comes with a DMM function.
I'm the kind of person who solders an AA battery socket in the place of a button cell.
No need to keep around few types of batteries, low power device basically runs forever and replacement battery can be purchased anywhere.
bazooka vs fly
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this might be of interest:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR_RusM99no (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR_RusM99no)
I'm really intrested in this kind of Lithium rechargeable battery. Although just about all of them asserted "low self-discharging",
but I have been hesitating to buy one. Becasue considering the boost converter's idle current could be more than 50uA. One
still need to tacke care of over-dischaging situation. Unless the battery management circuitry are included.
Is there anyone has one and knows the ball-park of self discharge time.