EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Projects, Designs, and Technical Stuff => Topic started by: SharpEars on December 18, 2015, 08:01:56 pm
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I am getting tired of the cheap MB102 strips being sold on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solderless-Breadboard-Protoboard-830-Tie-Points-2-buses-Test-Circuit-Mini-MB-102-/181847173658) that require a finger breaking 50 metric ton insertion force with a pair of needlenose pliers just to get thin resistor leads and 22 AWG solid wire ends into virgin holes.
Side question: Do you guys "condition" your breadboard holes with thin needles/nails before using them to make them more receptive of leads?
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You don't need 50 tons, pliers or "conditioning" to poke components into 3M breadboards.
Edit: using #24 wires instead of #22 also helps with not ruining the springs by not putting as much tension/compression on them.
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I am getting tired of the cheap MB102 strips being sold on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solderless-Breadboard-Protoboard-830-Tie-Points-2-buses-Test-Circuit-Mini-MB-102-/181847173658) that require a finger breaking 50 metric ton insertion force with a pair of needlenose pliers just to get thin resistor leads and 22 AWG solid wire ends into virgin holes.
Side question: Do you guys "condition" your breadboard holes with thin needles/nails before using them to make them more receptive of leads?
you should writing romance novels ;)
is good and breadboard an oximoron?
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I am getting tired of the cheap MB102 strips being sold on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solderless-Breadboard-Protoboard-830-Tie-Points-2-buses-Test-Circuit-Mini-MB-102-/181847173658) that require a finger breaking 50 metric ton insertion force with a pair of needlenose pliers just to get thin resistor leads and 22 AWG solid wire ends into virgin holes.
Side question: Do you guys "condition" your breadboard holes with thin needles/nails before using them to make them more receptive of leads?
you should writing romance novels ;)
is good and breadboard an oximoron?
Does "Do you guys condition your breadboard with thin needles/nails...?" remind you of 50 shades of gray?
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You don't need 50 tons, pliers or "conditioning" to poke components into 3M breadboards.
Edit: using #24 wires instead of #22 also helps with not ruining the springs by not putting as much tension/compression on them.
I am concerned that 24 AWG wires will not make good contacts and ultra super thin resistor leads still require a ridiculous amount of force on virgin contacts.
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Treat yourself to a 3M board. Expensive but nice to use from what I hear. None of mine are 3M |O. (Santa, can you hear me?)
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electronic-Project-Breadboard-Univ-Terminal-Strip-840-tie-points-total-3M-/200668490915?hash=item2eb8c62ca3:m:muhplnaapd0-RrFDDGxlIBA (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electronic-Project-Breadboard-Univ-Terminal-Strip-840-tie-points-total-3M-/200668490915?hash=item2eb8c62ca3:m:muhplnaapd0-RrFDDGxlIBA)
Edit: I have also purchased from Digikey:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/922309/922309-ND/180287 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/922309/922309-ND/180287)
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/922306/922306-ND/180285 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/922306/922306-ND/180285)
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I am getting tired of the cheap MB102 strips being sold on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solderless-Breadboard-Protoboard-830-Tie-Points-2-buses-Test-Circuit-Mini-MB-102-/181847173658) that require a finger breaking 50 metric ton insertion force with a pair of needlenose pliers just to get thin resistor leads and 22 AWG solid wire ends into virgin holes.
Side question: Do you guys "condition" your breadboard holes with thin needles/nails before using them to make them more receptive of leads?
you should writing romance novels ;)
is good and breadboard an oximoron?
Does "Do you guys condition your breadboard with thin needles/nails...?" remind you of 50 shades of gray?
I think, conditioning virgin holes to be more receptive so you you don't need to force it in
could be (mis)interpreted in several ways ;)
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Better too tight then too loose.
Come on lighten up, someone had to say it. :-+
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If only I could get the educational price I would get this:
http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=EEBOARD (http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=EEBOARD)
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Look for 3M, Global Specialties, and Wisher in that order IME. :)
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I use the Wisher ones and they are great.
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Wisher brand breadboards are much cheaper than 3M, but still really good quality. If I was purchasing a breadboard for work I'd get 3M, but when paying myself it's Wisher.
Link to the list of models: http://www.wishmaker.com.tw/cubecat/front/bin/cglist.phtml?Category=8 (http://www.wishmaker.com.tw/cubecat/front/bin/cglist.phtml?Category=8)
Wisher WBU-504 is my favorite.
Those cheap Chinese no-brand breadboards are, frankly, useless crap, and buying them is a crime against both nature and humanity, because they will end up in landfill after ruining your hobby and possibly (mental) health |O
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I should add that Jameco's valuepro line are rebranded wisher boards. You can look at the datasheet/document they list for them and see the wisher model number, etc.
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FChoose from:
- /dev/null - in other words, you can't
- mu - this question should be unasked
In my experience I always ended up spending more time debugging the breadboard than debugging my circuit.
Part of my life was wasted due to intermittent contacts, and even if that problem hadn't existed, some of my life would have been wasted by the excess L and C embuggers that you rather subtly.
Learn to use a soldering iron, and use the techniques the masters use, e.g. Jim William’s AN-47 High Speed Amplifier Techniques http://www.linear.com/docs/4138 (http://www.linear.com/docs/4138)
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The cynic in me thinks they are all the same underneath. But I'd love to have some solid evidence they aren't all made on the same machines in some giant factory.
The non-cynic in me notes they will all have the same excess capacitance, and the wiring the same excess inductance, and they will all be subject to more or less gradual degredation of contact resistance.
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In my experience I always ended up spending more time debugging the breadboard than debugging my circuit.
Part of my life was wasted due to intermittent contacts, and even if that problem hadn't existed, some of my life would have been wasted by the excess L and C embuggers that you rather subtly.
Well, for sure it depends on what kind of stuff you do, but I think that at minimum, when you're just starting out with electronics, a breadboard is a great way to learn quickly. I mean, you're not gonna be starting off with circuits where the L and C of a breadboard makes or breaks the thing. You're gonna dick around with LEDs and low-speed logic and simple op-amp circuits and Arduino and the like, not microwave RF circuits. I think there's a place for absolutely temporary construction, which is what breadboards are for.
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In my experience I always ended up spending more time debugging the breadboard than debugging my circuit.
Part of my life was wasted due to intermittent contacts, and even if that problem hadn't existed, some of my life would have been wasted by the excess L and C embuggers that you rather subtly.
Well, for sure it depends on what kind of stuff you do, but I think that at minimum, when you're just starting out with electronics, a breadboard is a great way to learn quickly. I mean, you're not gonna be starting off with circuits where the L and C of a breadboard makes or breaks the thing. You're gonna dick around with LEDs and low-speed logic and simple op-amp circuits and Arduino and the like, not microwave RF circuits. I think there's a place for absolutely temporary construction, which is what breadboards are for.
The classic mistakes made by many people are to think that:- my logic is only running at 1kHz, therefore it is slow speed. False of course, since it is the transition time that is important, not the clock speed
- it is only an audio circuit, so it won't oscillate. False, of course; put enough capacitance or inductance in the wrong place, and watch it hoot. Old saying: "amplifiers oscillate, oscillators won't"
At the local hackspace, I've given up looking at circuits built on breadboards, because of all the intermittent problems caused by the breadboard. "Breadboards? Just say no".
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I've been using plastic breadboards for 30 years, mostly 3M, but I have a few older ones I got at RadioShack and a few random oddballs.
Can't say I've ever had a circuit I built on one fail to work as expected because of the breadboard.
The only intermittents I can remember were caused by me using holes that I had previously jammed a way too big component into. On the contrary, my biggest complaint about 3M boards is that the grip is almost too tight. Many component leads are just not stiff enough to go in without bending.
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I use K&H ones as does our own David Jones. They're inexpensive and of much, much higher quality than the Won Hung Lo ones found on Fleabay. If you're in the UK, Maplin stock them.
This one comes in at at £15 GBP:
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There's a discussion about 3M breadboards at: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-is-so-great-about-3m-breadboards/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-is-so-great-about-3m-breadboards/)
I personally never had a 3M, but I have some from Twin industries bought years ago at Fry's Electronics and still going strong. The model I mentioned in the discussion above (here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-is-so-great-about-3m-breadboards/msg702989/#msg702989)).
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Can't say I've ever had a circuit I built on one fail to work as expected because of the breadboard.
The only intermittents I can remember were caused by me using holes that I had previously jammed a way too big component into.
I think you just disproved your own point.
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The non-cynic in me notes they will all have the same excess capacitance, and the wiring the same excess inductance, and they will all be subject to more or less gradual degredation of contact resistance.
Didn't Dave measure the C of some breadboards and determined that they only had like 4pF between the rails? While this is 10x-20x the C of most IC packages I guess that the L in the longass generic jumper wires would fsck up the signal integrity in reasonably high-speed signals more... Or?
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I can't wait until someone comes up with a breadboard with ground signals between the channels, also shielded with grounded jumpers would be really useful.
Someone do a kickstarter and get it done, would be hard to design something useful so that the ground pins of the jumpers don't interfere with the placement. Also placing grounds between those signals might be pretty hard to do in between 0.1 Inches pitch (actually shouldn't be too hard).
Put a full, well designed ground plane that leas the breadboard alone and it should not incur too much cost.
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Didn't Dave measure the C of some breadboards and determined that they only had like 4pF between the rails?
4pF in the wrong place is quite enough to make some analogue circuits hoot.
People using breadboards are almost certainly not sufficiently experienced to be able to predict where/why it might be a problem, and probably not sufficiently experienced to be able to diagnose and remove the cause of a problem.
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Can't say I've ever had a circuit I built on one fail to work as expected because of the breadboard.
The only intermittents I can remember were caused by me using holes that I had previously jammed a way too big component into.
I think you just disproved your own point.
I think there is a world of difference between a bad breadboard due to manufacturing or material defect and a bad breadboard connection due to user abuse or accident. I would not count the holes I messed up in my breadboards either by inserting large component leads or passing excessive current as being the breadboard's fault.
I have built digital circuits operating at 5-20MHz on breadboards and never had issues with bad contacts on relatively fresh 3M boards. (Relatively fresh as in never used for high current or with large component leads.)
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True, Daniels, but yours is a weak statement. Eventually the problems will arise, and in the meantime it is ambiguous whether any problems are in the breadboard, the design, or the construction. And precious time/energy is wasted determining which.
Breadboards, just say no!
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True, Daniels, but yours is a weak statement. Eventually the problems will arise, and in the meantime it is ambiguous whether any problems are in the breadboard, the design, or the construction.
But the same could be said about any method of building circuits. On a perf/veroboard is could be a bad/shorted joint. In a wirewrapped prototype it could be a broken cable, or a short sliver of metal short circuiting two pins beneath the bundle of wires. So the same ambiguity of the cause of malfunction is still there to some degreee.
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True, Daniels, but yours is a weak statement. Eventually the problems will arise, and in the meantime it is ambiguous whether any problems are in the breadboard, the design, or the construction.
But the same could be said about any method of building circuits. On a perf/veroboard is could be a bad/shorted joint. In a wirewrapped prototype it could be a broken cable, or a short sliver of metal short circuiting two pins beneath the bundle of wires. So the same ambiguity of the cause of malfunction is still there to some degreee.
Yes, it is a matter of degree: there are far more problems with breadboards than any of the other methods. Even worse, the problems are subtle and intermittent: sneeze and one problem is cured and another is caused.
I've been building circuits for half a century, and I've used many techniques that you probably wouldn't dream of. Breadboards are by far the most unreliable.
Hell's teeth, some of my PCBs made with nail varnish and Fablon are still working 40 years later, as are wirewrapped circuits! See https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2015/02/21/vintage-hacking-or-the-past-is-a-foreign-country-they-do-things-differently-there/ and https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2015/02/21/a-40-year-old-hack-disinterred/
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Yes, it is a matter of degree: there are far more problems with breadboards than any of the other methods. Even worse, the problems are subtle and intermittent: sneeze and one problem is cured and another is caused.
I've been building circuits for half a century, and I've used many techniques that you probably wouldn't dream of. Breadboards are by far the most unreliable.
Sure thing, it's a matter of degrees. But if we disregard the mass produced cheap Chinese shite, how bad is a proper 3M really? You're dismissing solderless breadboard as useless to 100%, that is usually a sign of something that is not being true.
Maybe Jim Williams and Bob Pease didn't use solderless breadboards at all, but I'm sure that most of the regular amateurs/beginners out in the world that wants to hook up 10-15 discrete parts to play with will do just fine with a 3M board. But building a complete TTL cpu comprising 100 ICs on 20 boards are just lunacy....
Well, you're a bit ahead of me then, I've only been building stuff for the last 41 years :-) Ranging from making pcbs with decals and tape, cutting board with nails, trainers with springs, wirewrapping, manhattan, freeform....
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I've also used breadboards, without serious problems, for over 30 years. I see no reason why they should be avoided. Just buy decent quality and understand their limitations.
It's usually possible to use the wrong tool and get bad results. It's also possible to use the right tool in the wrong way and get bad results. The tool is not the problem in either case.
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I've been building circuits for half a century, and I've used many techniques that you probably wouldn't dream of. Breadboards are by far the most unreliable.
Hell's teeth, some of my PCBs made with nail varnish and Fablon are still working 40 years later, as are wirewrapped circuits!
Nobody is arguing that breadboards are as reliable as PCBs and other construction methods. But let's be clear on something: breadboarding isn't supposed to be a permanent construction method. It's a development tool. Who cares that PCBs and wirewrap last 40 years, in this context? Nobody wants a breadboard circuit to last 40 years. That's not a breadboard's purpose in life.
The fact is, it's a useful tool, and like others have said, you always need to know the limits of your tools. That a particular tool isn't applicable to every conceivable situation doesn't mean it's a fundamentally bad tool!
As matseng implied, your 100% anti-breadboard stance reeks of dogma, not of objective evaluation, nor does it seem to agree with most people's experiences with them.
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I've also used breadboards, without serious problems, for over 30 years. I see no reason why they should be avoided. Just buy decent quality and understand their limitations.
Unfortunately beginners usually don't understand breadboard's limitations and don't know how to (mis)use them, and can get confused and discouraged by "inexplicable" results.
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I've learned _a lot_ by experimenting with breadboards. I don't consider them "final circuit" at all, and they have their limitations, but I certainly wouldn't want to be without them!
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I've learned _a lot_ by experimenting with breadboards. I don't consider them "final circuit" at all, and they have their limitations, but I certainly wouldn't want to be without them!
Fair enough! I don't think anybody has suggested they might be final circuits. If you know their limitations they can indeed be useful.
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Fair enough! I don't think anybody has suggested they might be final circuits. If you know their limitations they can indeed be useful.
I wouldn't use breadboards for 50MHz or 10ns edge stuff but I still love them for for sanity-checking fundamental functionality before committing to a PCB prototype - if I cannot get the fundamental design to work on a breadboard at reduced bandwidth/frequency/edge rate, that usually indicates fundamental flaws that require investigation before bothering with a PCB.
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Fair enough! I don't think anybody has suggested they might be final circuits. If you know their limitations they can indeed be useful.
I wouldn't use breadboards for 50MHz or 10ns edge stuff but I still love them for for sanity-checking fundamental functionality before committing to a PCB prototype - if I cannot get the fundamental design to work on a breadboard at reduced bandwidth/frequency/edge rate, that usually indicates fundamental flaws that require investigation before bothering with a PCB.
If you are using a reduced edge rate, then you must be using significantly different logic families - in which case you will learn less than desirable. All those problems are avoided using dead-bug techniques.
Ditto opamp/comparator speed.
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I hardly use thru hole parts, but I still find the breadboard useful.
For very high amount of connections, I find it to be worth the time to use pin headers. Stick them in the breadboard and wrap the connections and/or use female-female jumper wires.
I don't really stick leads/wires into the breadboard very often, aside from IC leads and pin headers. So my breadboards don't get screwed up.
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If you are using a reduced edge rate, then you must be using significantly different logic families - in which case you will learn less than desirable. All those problems are avoided using dead-bug techniques.
Ditto opamp/comparator speed.
For digital stuff, edge rate is not critical as long as the setup and hold time is enough for ringing on the data lines to settle before the data gets clocked in and the clock itself is clean, no need to use different logic families as long as they are available in DIP packaging or can be put on adapters. For analog stuff, slowing down opamps up to about 100MHz GBW (ex. OPA637) is readily achievable by changing feedback and compensation network component values.
While dead bug is better when you want to get closer to the performance of a PCB prototype, it is nowhere near as convenient for quick sanity checks that don't require full performance, when you want to reuse the parts or just need a temporary hack. When I want something more permanent or require higher performance, I design a PCB and order it - with local distributors charging over $30/sqft for single-sided copper-clad boards, ordering double-sided PCBs with 5X the component density isn't that much more expensive.
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If you are using a reduced edge rate, then you must be using significantly different logic families - in which case you will learn less than desirable. All those problems are avoided using dead-bug techniques.
Ditto opamp/comparator speed.
For digital stuff, edge rate is not critical as long as the setup and hold time is enough for ringing on the data lines to settle before the data gets clocked in and the clock itself is clean, no need to use different logic families as long as they are available in DIP packaging or can be put on adapters.
That's partly true. Consider that under/overshoot can subtly damage inputs (which probably doesn't matter on a breadboard), and can cause mis-operation - especially on clocks. Faster logic families also have shorter setup/hold times, which are more likely to fall foul of parasitic L&C in signals and gnd/vcc lines. It doesn't take a very long line nor much capacitance to get 50-100MHz resonances.
The other nasty is, of course, ground bounce - and that is very difficult to reduce on breadboards.
For analog stuff, slowing down opamps up to about 100MHz GBW (ex. OPA637) is readily achievable by changing feedback and compensation network component values.
Sometimes, but sometimes not. Gnd and Vcc problems probably won't be affected by feedback and compensation, especially where those have parasitic L and C. And of course the parasitic C can sometimes be sufficient to make it work!
But if it works, it works. That's not the point.
The point is that typical breadboard users are beginners that won't understand everything you say, and will have unexpected "inexplicable" problems.
At the local hackspace I see too many problems with beginners being terminally put off by faults in poorly constructed circuits breadboards. They don't know any better, of course.
If they dead bugged the circuit they are, arguably, more likely to be successful. Or at least the problem will be with their design and therefore visible in their schematic - and that's far easier to debug.
While dead bug is better when you want to get closer to the performance of a PCB prototype, it is nowhere near as convenient for quick sanity checks that don't require full performance, when you want to reuse the parts or just need a temporary hack. When I want something more permanent or require higher performance, I design a PCB and order it - with local distributors charging over $30/sqft for single-sided copper-clad boards, ordering double-sided PCBs with 5X the component density isn't that much more expensive.
Just so. That's a significant improvement for amateurs over the past decade.
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Unfortunately beginners usually don't understand breadboard's limitations and don't know how to (mis)use them, and can get confused and discouraged by "inexplicable" results.
Your argument is that beginners are all too naive to know a breadboard's limitations (ignoring that that level of beginner's circuits are unlikely to be affected by them), and that anyone who does know the limitations will be working on things that exceed a breadboard's limitations; therefore, breadboards are useless to everyone.
Baloney. If they were that useless, they wouldn't exist. Drop your tiresome, condescending, dogma-driven crusade and let people discuss the actual damned question, which was where to get good breadboards.
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Unfortunately beginners usually don't understand breadboard's limitations and don't know how to (mis)use them, and can get confused and discouraged by "inexplicable" results.
Your argument is that beginners are all too naive to know a breadboard's limitations (ignoring that that level of beginner's circuits are unlikely to be affected by them), and that anyone who does know the limitations will be working on things that exceed a breadboard's limitations; therefore, breadboards are useless to everyone.
Baloney. If they were that useless, they wouldn't exist. Drop your tiresome, condescending, dogma-driven crusade and let people discuss the actual damned question, which was where to get good breadboards.
I agree with that. When I started on electronics my only option for true, non-destructive prototyping was to use screw terminal blocks (http://www.globalelectricalsupply.com/12-Circuit-30-Amp-Insulated-Terminal-Block-p/itb30-12.htm?gclid=CP7ZnIiw-skCFQ6SaQod32sKDg&gdftrk=gdfV29462_a_7c3148_a_7c10018_a_7cITB30_d_12) - the other options were either soldered tie point bars or full custom PCBs. When my dad got us a breadboard in mid 80's, it was a true lifesaver. I have used it for countless prototypes and proof of concepts and learned a lot from it - including its limitations.
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I don't believe in recycled solderless breadboards, so I by the cheap ones and let them retire after each project.
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I don't believe in recycled solderless breadboards, so I by the cheap ones and let them retire after each project.
I got once chip ones from eBay and couldn't make them to work. Aome points they simply didn't make a connection. I think they were made of soft metal and didn't press well on the wire. Capacitance and such was not an issue. Since then I use mid quality breadboards (from Fry's, not 3M) and no problem so far.