Author Topic: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment  (Read 40774 times)

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Offline oldway

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2015, 12:00:27 pm »
All those little battery desulfators does not work at all.
http://www.sotolab.eu/eng/products.html
This is something more serious !
I recomand first to try to recharge the battery with a 50/60V dc power supply with a 110V/100W bulb in serie.
When voltage on battery drop at about 12V, you can try to recharge it with a battery charger.
 

Offline eneuro

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2015, 04:02:25 pm »
All those little battery desulfators does not work at all.
http://www.sotolab.eu/eng/products.html
In general company with "LAB" in name smells always for the first time like bullshit  before you verify their claims :-DD

In this blog Car Battery Recovery (Desulfation) someone reports another desulfator working at 10kHz and claims it worked for him.
http://thegreatgeekery.blogspot.com/2013/06/car-battery-recovery-desulfation.html

Used desulfator there, but who knows maybe this blog was made by... manufacturer of this cheap thing:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-Auto-Pulser-Desulfator-for-lead-acid-batteries-battery-regenerator-battery-reviver-battery-rejuverator/608796702.html

So, its sometimes better reuse a few spare elements and make own DIY desulfator with own MPU source code which we can tweak when want to make research and need to implement feature which is not available in those magic desulfators >:D
I have 24VAC secondary transformer so @ ~35Vmax will see what happends when on peak voltages after bridge with a few caps in parallel we'll try 10kHz PWM when those peaks are detected on MPU ADC  ;)

I recomand first to try to recharge the battery with a 50/60V dc power supply with a 110V/100W bulb in serie.
Yep it is good idea, so simply such light bulb bypassed by mosfets switch might work to precharge battery to voltage where desulfator mode can be used  8)

The only thing left to design is battery monitor on its terminals but switchable, so we could detect and check for undervoltage or overvoltages in time where desulfator PWM is off and light bulb or other current limiting device disconnected as well  :-/O
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 04:06:25 pm by eneuro »
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Offline SArepairman

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2015, 07:09:08 pm »
I hate how there is no concrete evidence of desulfators.

I kinda wanna do desulfator testing complete with autopsys and microscope slides.

I have two SLA's that are both pretty dead. Does anyone have some kind of experiment in mind that will be easy to implement?


I feel like without actually getting some (magnified) pictures of the lead plates this is a bunch of voodoo.


I have tried to recharge a SLA before that I refilled with water, I got maybe 25% capacity out of it. I kinda wanted to try building a desulfating circuit, but it seems that people have like 50 different methods of doing it, duty cycles, wave shapes, peak currents, average currents... I felt like a cat trying to find a comfortable spot on a bed.

If some kind of general consensus can be reached in this thread maybe I will solder / angle grind something.

Some kind of single cell "test jig" made in a clear tank of acrylic perhaps? Carefully take apart a multiple cell SLA battery, do experiments on cells 1 by 1.

'how feasible is this / can a general purpose test rig be built to cover the majority of desulfator concepts?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 07:16:27 pm by SArepairman »
 

Offline eneuro

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2015, 07:56:20 pm »
'how feasible is this / can a general purpose test rig be built to cover the majority of desulfator concepts?
If you follow another videos of this guy you'll find out that it uses this modified  http://www.frontiersprings.com/desulfator.html  circut with bloody inductors and those videos was one of the best I found when was looking for this sort of things and starting point to make own MPU version.
In this video he shows even some cells comparisions etc.

Unfortunatelly, this time lapse cell video is made... without usage of tripod and... he shows cell images not centered in the middle but random position around the centre of the screen  :palm:
Better than nothing, but... difficult to see differences, however idea not so bad.

In other videos he showed trick with voltage spike measurement on desoldered battety using 1N4148 and 100nF cap in parallel to battery, so it might be worth to see how he  :-/O this circuit to work.

Anyway, I do not know best desulfator circuit and its parameters, so it could be interesting look into details like PWM frequency, duty cycle, maximum voltage and peak currents if someone bought another one and see its teardown  ;)
Those parameters are not included in "product" descriptions of those available to buy, so I see no reason to buy any of them and just makeing research to adjust those parameters in Made at Home desulfators, because of course without knowledge of physics behind this it is difficult to choose right ones based only on manufacturers claims who wants sell this sort of products...
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 08:06:42 pm by eneuro »
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Online Fraser

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Offline eneuro

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2015, 09:37:11 pm »
Thanks for link to this forum, but it looks like all desulfators there are build around 555 without any mosfet gate drivers, etc  ???

They says it bad idea pulsing batts in parallel, but... putting batts in parallel WITHOUT diodes which should prevent currents flaws between each other it is sometimes bad idea itself, so I do not buy it :
http://leadacidbatterydesulfation.yuku.com/topic/1160/Pulsing-batts-in-parallel-is-a-bad-idea#.VOUB0qp7NQI

Maybe should dig deeper on this forum to find more detailed specs of peak pulses they use, etc...

Update, ok. 555 based voltage doubler sounds better while quite nice mosfet driver TC4426 is used...
http://leadacidbatterydesulfation.yuku.com/topic/1193/Voltage-Doubler-Desulfator-Design#.VOUGlap7NQI
and ... proof of concept from this post  above , but ok, there are some scope waveforms so not so bad >:D


However, why 40Vds  200A   0.004 Ohm http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irf1404.pdf  was used there?  :wtf:
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 09:53:56 pm by eneuro »
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Offline SArepairman

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2015, 09:39:52 pm »
well a BJT 555 timer can drive a fair bit, the CMOS version substantially less.
 

Offline TheRuler8510

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2015, 12:09:43 am »
Update to my science Experiment:

After putting in an inductor in series with the parallel battery as suggested by Seekonk, I get much better pulses into the dead battery. Using my scope and a high voltage differential probe, I can see the pulses squared up nicely and are actually a duty cycle of 0.27%, or pulse width or 2 usec at 1.3 KHz. Pulses are 116V in amplitude.

Anyhow, after running a day that way, the voltage is still only at 0.05V, so I decided to run the reverse voltage thru the battery as suggested by Circlotron. Plan is 2-3 days that way, then reverse the voltage to normal.
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Offline Circlotron

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2015, 04:47:02 am »
Anyhow, after running a day that way, the voltage is still only at 0.05V, so I decided to run the reverse voltage thru the battery as suggested by Circlotron. Plan is 2-3 days that way, then reverse the voltage to normal.
Make sure you limit the current to 2% of Ah capacity. Don't try to speed it up with more current!!!
 

Offline eneuro

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2015, 07:02:38 am »
If you place two batteries in parallel, I would place a good size inductor (like a 12V secondary of a transformer) between the two.
Do you mean something like classic boost switching converter like this below where Vin is our power source and on Vout our sulfated battery in place of output capacitor?  ::)
Boost Switching Converter Design Equations


If we haven't got higher voltage source it's quite easy way to boost it up, so I wonder why guys in Double Voltage desulfator linked above tried hard to double up this voltage using caps?  :o
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Offline Seekonk

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2015, 01:35:27 pm »
NO, not at all.  A desulfinator has to have a power source to work.  If you notice many of these circuits have two inductors.  The first isolated the battery (and therefore the pulse) and charges the capacitor that provides current to the second inductor that provides the pulse.  This is because some batteries may not be able to supply enough current to that inductor.    When a second parallel battery (or even a charger) is used to supply the voltage, that battery should be isolated from the pulse by an inductor to maximize the pulse into the sulfated battery.  I believe in the posted picture, the large capacitor is used a load to simulate the battery so current can be measured by the Pearson CT.   A battery is a large capacitor.
 

Offline TheRuler8510

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2015, 01:37:54 pm »
The date code of 12/10 will most probably be YY/MM so October 2012,
I'm on the fence with this particular one, but out in the feild we don't
give these any longer than 3 year's unless it's a Yuasa or Sonnenschein
which can still be ok after 5 years, dependent on installed system.


I misquoted the date code; exactly as written says, "1218 10". It is branded into the plastic, and I am still assuming it is a date code.

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Offline TheRuler8510

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2015, 01:58:46 pm »
Back in 1990 I worked at a place that sold UPSs. Some had been in storage for several years and the batteries would be replaced before sale. The old batteries would be typically at 1 or 2 volts. I experimented a whole heap with the old batteries and eventually had great success with the following formula: Apply a REVERSE charge with current limit set to 2% of Ah rating for 48-72 hours. The battery may not draw any current initially but just leave it alone. After this time, set the charge to normal polarity and charge for 3-4 days, still with the 2% current limit. During this time, do NOT be tempted to wind up the current limit - one cell will start to get hot and then it is junk. Fixed many new but neglected batteries this way. One 12v 24Ah SLA Yuasa started off at 2 volts and had been sitting for about 3 years, got it going and used it in my Diahatsu Charade for 2 years until I sold it.

Circlotron,

Yes I have the limit set to 190 mA, or 1.6% of AH rating.

How high in (reverse) voltage should I go? I have it limited to 13V right now, and it is drawing less than 1 mA.

Thanks,
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 02:00:24 pm by TheRuler8510 »
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Offline oldway

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2015, 02:08:03 pm »
A fully discharged battery has a very high internal resistance.
For this reason, you must first let react the most PbSO4 possible.
You need a high voltage with current limiting to begin to recharge the battery.
When voltage on battery drops nearby the nominal voltage, you can try to desulfate the battery.

It works really, it has been proven: see test here: (in french)
http://www.batterie-plus.fr/images/pdf/rapportLCIE.pdf

How works the regenerator ?
With high energy pulses of 300A during 200ms and 3s interval time. (for car batteries, this is reduced to 50A pulses)
See page 18 of BRT203.
http://www.batterie-plus.fr/PDF/manuelutilisationbrt203.pdf

Other models:
http://www.batterie-plus.fr/ventederegenerateurs.aspx
 

Offline eneuro

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2015, 03:19:31 pm »
When a second parallel battery (or even a charger) is used to supply the voltage, that battery should be isolated from the pulse by an inductor to maximize the pulse into the sulfated battery.
Fast diode can easy be rated for hundreds of amperes in pulse.
Anyway what is wrong with boost converter powered from transformer or other battery?
We could make bypass on diode with a few low RDSON mosfets in parallel and switch them on to bypass diode (fro higher efficiency) when switching off main boost converter bottom switch and huge voltage spike should hit sulfated battery...  :-/O
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Offline Seekonk

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2015, 04:00:33 pm »
Your reply seems totally unrelated to anything I have said.  These devices are foolishness. 
 

Offline eneuro

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2015, 05:34:49 pm »
These devices are foolishness.
Which devices?  ???

If you draw or provided any circuit schematics with your idea of indudctor between power source battery and this sulfated, than everything could be clear.
In links with this Double Voltage desulfator people in that thread made also circuit simulation and they got quite similar results  with real experiment 8)
To discus circuits we need a schematics-it is easier to understand and visualise concepts.

So, simply circuit schematics idea or photo is worth more than thousands words  ;)

Anyway, programmed small H-bridge to drive GDT @ 10kHz PWM and pulse GDT at <5% duty cycle to drive AC mosfets switch which succesfully trigered  thyrystors in anti parallel (SCR's) to switch  230VAC mains load.

Probably will try use this 1000V AC mosfets switch to drive inductor in boost converter and will see if I will get high voltage spikes on desulfated battery using classic boost converter shown above  :-BROKE

Update: Ready for real experiment -boost mode in custom charger with two ideal diode drivers should create nice voltage spikes on battery  >:D

Maybe its timing or energy will not be perfect for desulfation, but worth to try-I need boost mode in my charger after upgrade anyway, so good time to add this feature and change slightly buck converter and make it more versatile  8)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 10:57:13 pm by eneuro »
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Offline eneuro

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2015, 05:58:08 pm »
I can see the pulses squared up nicely and are actually a duty cycle of 0.27%, or pulse width or 2 usec at 1.3 KHz. Pulses are 116V in amplitude.
Could you post a photo how this bloody inductor is driven in your circuit, because of I can imagine inductor whcih connects two batteries eg. on its (+) terminals, so it is in series, but... it must be sosme kind of current limit-how do you drive this thing and how it looks like?

Maybe, I missed something or simply too many lines of MPU code written today  :bullshit:
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Offline Circlotron

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2015, 02:06:33 am »

Circlotron,

Yes I have the limit set to 190 mA, or 1.6% of AH rating.

How high in (reverse) voltage should I go? I have it limited to 13V right now, and it is drawing less than 1 mA.

Thanks,
I seem to remember it was about the same as normal charging voltage, 13.65 for a SLA, 14.1 for a car battery. I never tried it on a car battery though.
 

Offline oldway

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2015, 11:39:44 am »
I did some desulfation testing on an old 50ah car battery that had loosed more than two third of its capacity.
I used 50A peak current pulses of 200 ms with a 4s interval.

Results: after a few hours, the battery has completely lost its capacity ... totally dead!

But there are so many causes of battery failure, other than being sulfated, especially for automotives batteries which are subject to vibrations and high starting currents, that we can not draw conclusions about a single trial.

In any case, I am convinced that small low-energy fixtures do not work at all and it's a scam on the part of those who sell them.

I am still waiting to see the reports of official tests done by honest firms to be convinced otherwise.

Explanations of vibrations of crystals that come into resonance at breaking point has no scientific basis, it is more like alchemy than science fact.

Whoever has a bit of scientific knowledge can not believe in such nonsense.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 12:00:13 pm by oldway »
 

Offline eneuro

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2015, 02:09:24 pm »
I did some desulfation testing on an old 50ah car battery that had loosed more than two third of its capacity.
I used 50A peak current pulses of 200 ms with a 4s interval.
Results: after a few hours, the battery has completely lost its capacity ... totally dead!
I do not like idea of 0.2s huge amps pulses.

Just modified this simple voltage doubler circuit from linked thread above to be able use power supply in parallel with sulfated battery:

Between short HV pulses we can  precharge battery with current limit schown as light bulb in this simple circuit simulation.
Battery is not drawn there but it is right part of this circuit and from sulfated battery side no diode needed-right capacitor is charged to sulfated battery voltage, so we need first use other tricks or HV via light bulb to try put dead battery above 10.5V before switch to desulfator pulses mode.
Anyway, thanks to this circuit design we can use HV power supply to NOT DOUBLE battery VOLTAGE like in its oryginal design from links above but... step up to pulse which can be much higher than desulfated battery voltage-while turning on the switch creates voltage spike equal to power supply Vmax (left part)    :o

Now its time create small PCB, solder a few caps in parallel instead of one bulky 6800uF, fast diodes, two small inductors and connect to 24VAC transformer secondary left part and to suspect dead battery with high internal resistance on right side, attach preprogrammed GDT mosfet driver or another of our choice to create those pulses on battery by turning on.off switch in the middle  >:D

Oryginal Mark voltage doubler desulfator circuit concept there:

Someone sells this Mark capacitors desulfator as a kit:
http://www.courtiestown.co.uk/index.php/battery-desulphators/kits/12-24v-voltage-doubler-desulphator-desulfator-kit.html
This is image of components from this oryginal voltage doubler kit above:


However, I prefere own mosfet drivers and change a few lines of code in AVR to change pulses PWM and duty cycle, so 555 not interesting option anymore  ;)
Only a few elements if we have mosfets driver, no need to mess with 555 no more  :-/O

Thanks @Aurora for link to this interesting forum :-+


« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 02:22:09 pm by eneuro »
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Offline Seekonk

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2015, 02:14:28 pm »
Stick to writing softwarehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/Smileys/default/smiley_laughing.gif
 

Offline oldway

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2015, 02:54:19 pm »
@eneuro: My experiments (pulses of 200ms 50A with 3 or 4s interval) has been done on basis of a comercial aplication who is working.
It has been proven by official tests.
(See my links in my previous post.)

Before you make an electronic project, you would first understand on what principle the electric desulfation works.

Principle of resonating PbSO4 cristais and break them is bullshit.

1) it's not proven than PbSO4 have some piezoelectric caracteristics. Vibration is a mecanical effect of piezoelectric caracteristics.
2) PbSO4 cristais are of different shapes and dimensions and would then resonate on different frequencies.
3) To resonate at a high amplitude, a piezoelectric cristal need a sustained oscilating electric field, not only a pulse. (only damped oscillations)
4) electric field is very low : if you measure voltage on the battery terminals with a scope, you will see that you don't have high voltage pulse as soon as there is a little quantity of PbSO4 who has reacted. (internal resistance became very low)
For this reason, you need high energy pulses, what your circuit is not able to produce.
5) With low electric field, it's almost impossible to break a cristal....I never seen a cristal ocillator broken only by low oscillator voltage.

Your circuit definitively will not work for desulfating bateries, you waste your time and your money.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 02:57:40 pm by oldway »
 

Offline eneuro

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2015, 06:31:08 pm »
It has been proven by official tests.
(See my links in my previous post.)
Unfortunatelly, French is not my technical language, but really nice images and looks like a cool stuff-will try find something similar in English  ;)
Anyway, the more people will research and try, sometimes discoveries are made ... by  chance  :-DD

I know, that it is not easy to solve a puzzle if you never seen complete image before, but common-I do not loose my time watching stupid TV channels, so a few hours for something like this it is a fun to see what happends and maybe I'll be able get similar results like people from that voltage doubler desulfator thread-for the moment just from point of view current spikes and energy achived, etc.

5) With low electric field, it's almost impossible to break a cristal....I never seen a cristal ocillator broken only by low oscillator voltage.
When was designing my aluminium anodizing equipment, current needed was proportional to aluminium plates square area:
http://www.anodizeusa.com/pas23.php
"In the anodizing industry using amps per square foot anodizing has always been considered the fastest and most accurate way of anodizing parts for a quality minded customer."

My guess is, those pulses current might be also dependent on battery used and bigger battery has higher plates area, so much higher currents needed for bigger battery?  ::)
50A in the case of 50Ah battery doesn't looks like a monster current like 200A, but 0.2s is a lot of time, so this timing looks strange, but ok, maybe it is needed.

How much energy in your experiment your 50A pulse had?
If we had resistance or voltage to calculate power than, energy or work:
W=P*t
where
 P=R*I^2=V*I=V^2/R

Isn't sulfated battery internal resistance important and amout of this desulfator pulse energy calculated based on this parameter?

Your circuit definitively will not work for desulfating bateries, you waste your time and your money.
This circuit was derived from other people work and it is still a concept not simulated in Spice  but Falstad just to have some idea what to expect and whether I smell cooked ICs and see flying around capacitors or there is some hope that if it won't work I'll be able reuse components in another project and they survive  :-DD
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 06:43:14 pm by eneuro »
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Offline eneuro

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Re: Guess What Will Happen: Battery Desulfation Experiment
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2015, 06:47:23 pm »
Stick to writing software
It is easier write software if you made also PCB, so my desulfator soft is ready and can't wait for PCB to check it out  :-/O

BTW: Electrons doesn't care if PCB and elements were soldered by EE or software engineer  :-DD

Quote
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
- Albert Einstein
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 06:49:16 pm by eneuro »
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