HDMI licensing

[Jat]

Trying to design a product with HDMI output but not clear about licensing.

Have a product with VGA output and working on adding a chip to the board to convert the signals to HDMI as new screens mostly have HDMI inputs. Very confused with mixed information about licensing HDMI in a product.

Will appreciate if someone has experience with this and point in the right direction.

[NiHaoMike]

You could implement DVI, which is a subset of HDMI.

[Jat]

Thanks for replying NiHaoMike but then the issue is not all new monitors will have DVI.

So is it right that even if we use some bridging chip to convert signals to HDMI then we need to get a licence?

[SiliconWizard]

Have no clue.
Have you looked there? https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0/hdmi_2_0_licensing.aspx

I haven't seen any licensing points for HDMI 1.4, so thay may indicate that you could do without licensing if you stick to HDMI 1.4, but I'm not sure really.
I also don't exactly know what their licensing entails. Probably easier to ask them... but you can start with their FAQs (unless you already did that).

[TERRA Operative]

I'm not sure if it's the case for HDMI, but sometimes with codecs the licensing fee is rolled into the purchase price of the chip.

[tautech]

Build it with DVI and throw a cheap as chips HDMI adapter into the box:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Felkin-DVI-to-HDMI-Adapter-Cable-24k-Gold-Plated-Plug-HDMI-To-DVI-24-1-Pin/32879269883.html?spm=2114.search0604.3.63.7fa4654caz8ZcU&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_1_10065_10068_10547_319_317_10548_10696_10084_453_10924_454_10083_10618_10920_10921_10307_10922_537_536_10059_10884_10887_100031_321_322_10103,searchweb201603_51,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=c5995067-b333-481f-b50d-7bfc5f562e03-9&algo_pvid=c5995067-b333-481f-b50d-7bfc5f562e03

[sokoloff]

I’m pretty sure that DVI-D is passively converted to HDMI (and vice versa) just by a cable that has the correct ends on it. I know that we’ve done this a LOT at work and never had an issue. I don’t know if it’s guaranteed by specs, but I do know it works.

[wraper]

Build it with DVI and throw a cheap as chips HDMI adapter into the box:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Felkin-DVI-to-HDMI-Adapter-Cable-24k-Gold-Plated-Plug-HDMI-To-DVI-24-1-Pin/32879269883.html?spm=2114.search0604.3.63.7fa4654caz8ZcU&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_1_10065_10068_10547_319_317_10548_10696_10084_453_10924_454_10083_10618_10920_10921_10307_10922_537_536_10059_10884_10887_100031_321_322_10103,searchweb201603_51,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=c5995067-b333-481f-b50d-7bfc5f562e03-9&algo_pvid=c5995067-b333-481f-b50d-7bfc5f562e03

If you do this, most likely you are still subject to the licensing fees. Basically you pay for each product sold, you don't pay separately for accessories included in the box. But if you sell cable or adapter as separate product, you must pay for them as much as if it was a whole TV or satellite receiver. IIRC it was something like $10k annual fee + $0.05-$0.15 fee for each device sold. Also there is another licensing model for test equipment, no fixed large annual fee but then you pay a few bucks for each device. Edit: $5k + $1 per device + $0.05-$0.15 per device.

[Jat]

thank you everyone for your feedback and yes its not very clear anywhere about the pricing but all this does add to the pricing and workload of designing a product.

Right now our clients are using VGA to HDMI adapters but would have been cool to have this integrated into the product as then people think that its a very old design with VGA output.

Was hoping to use ADV7533 chip to convert the parallel pixel data into HDMI

[Towger]

That fact than no one here knows the answer probably points most turning the blind eye to it. Dell's solution was to develop (fund) DisplayPort and make is open source. But it now seems even it's OS status is questioned.

[Berni]

Single link DVI-D is the same as HDMI except without audio support.

You literally just connect the right pins on a DVI connector to the right pins of a HDMI connector and it works. This is why you can easily find cables that have DVI on one end and HDMI on the other.

If you need to have audio then you technically need to use HDMI, but the audio data is traveling on the same wires as the video so using a HDMI chip connected to a DVI connector would have audio work just fine. Its possible you might need to use a HDMI connector if you need ARC(Audio return channel) support tho.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Build it with DVI and throw a cheap as chips HDMI adapter into the box:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Felkin-DVI-to-HDMI-Adapter-Cable-24k-Gold-Plated-Plug-HDMI-To-DVI-24-1-Pin/32879269883.html?spm=2114.search0604.3.63.7fa4654caz8ZcU&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_1_10065_10068_10547_319_317_10548_10696_10084_453_10924_454_10083_10618_10920_10921_10307_10922_537_536_10059_10884_10887_100031_321_322_10103,searchweb201603_51,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=c5995067-b333-481f-b50d-7bfc5f562e03-9&algo_pvid=c5995067-b333-481f-b50d-7bfc5f562e03

That is just a pinout adapter - you can output DVI on a HDMI connector - no way anyone is due a license for using a particular connector, just don't use the logo.

[ebastler]

That is just a pinout adapter - you can output DVI on a HDMI connector - no way anyone is due a license for using a particular connector, just don't use the logo.

If there is no license fee on the connector geometry (to be confirmed?), then you can simply put an HDMI jack on your PCB, and feed a DVI signal to it. Same thing, just without the audio. Every HDMI monitor should accept the signal, with any jellybean HDMI cable.

[wraper]

Build it with DVI and throw a cheap as chips HDMI adapter into the box:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Felkin-DVI-to-HDMI-Adapter-Cable-24k-Gold-Plated-Plug-HDMI-To-DVI-24-1-Pin/32879269883.html?spm=2114.search0604.3.63.7fa4654caz8ZcU&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_1_10065_10068_10547_319_317_10548_10696_10084_453_10924_454_10083_10618_10920_10921_10307_10922_537_536_10059_10884_10887_100031_321_322_10103,searchweb201603_51,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=c5995067-b333-481f-b50d-7bfc5f562e03-9&algo_pvid=c5995067-b333-481f-b50d-7bfc5f562e03

That is just a pinout adapter - you can output DVI on a HDMI connector - no way anyone is due a license for using a particular connector, just don't use the logo.

I've investigated this a few years ago. As long as it can transfer HDMI signal, you need to pay a full licence fee even for a stupid cable.

[wraper]

https://www.semiconductorstore.com/blog/2014/licensing-costs-HDMI/654/
Note that without a logo you need to pay more than with logo (must certify compliance).

The HDMI Fee Structure Explained
   
Now that we understand the term HDMI Adopter, let’s review the fees associated with being an Adopter, namely annual fees and royalty fees. There are 2 annual fee structures:
High-volume (more than 10,000 units) HDMI Adopter Agreement - $10k/year.
Low-volume (10,000 units or less) HDMI Adopter Agreement - $5k/year + flat $1/unit administration fee.
The annual fee is due upon the execution of the Adopter Agreement, and must be paid on the anniversary of this date each year thereafter.
   
The royalty fee structure is the same for all volumes. The following variable per-unit royalty is device-based and not dependent on number of ports, chips or connectors:
US$0.15 for each end-user licensed product.
US$0.05 – If the HDMI logo is used on the product and promotional material, the per-unit fee drops from US$0.15 to US$0.05. Use of HDMI logo requires compliance testing.
US$0.04 – If HDCP is implemented and HDMI logo is used, the per-unit fee drops further from US$0.05 to US$0.04.
Please note that Adopters must license HDCP separately from Digital Content Protection, LLC, an Intel subsidiary. Please see www.digital-cp.com for details.
   
The HDMI royalty is only payable on Licensed Products that will be sold on a stand-alone basis (i.e. that are not incorporated into another Licensed Product that is subject to an HDMI royalty). For example, if a cable or IC is sold to an Adopter who then includes it in a television subject to a royalty, then the cable or IC maker would not pay a royalty, and the television manufacturer would pay the royalty on the final product. If the cable is sold directly to consumers, then the cable would be subject to a royalty.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Build it with DVI and throw a cheap as chips HDMI adapter into the box:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Felkin-DVI-to-HDMI-Adapter-Cable-24k-Gold-Plated-Plug-HDMI-To-DVI-24-1-Pin/32879269883.html?spm=2114.search0604.3.63.7fa4654caz8ZcU&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_1_10065_10068_10547_319_317_10548_10696_10084_453_10924_454_10083_10618_10920_10921_10307_10922_537_536_10059_10884_10887_100031_321_322_10103,searchweb201603_51,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=c5995067-b333-481f-b50d-7bfc5f562e03-9&algo_pvid=c5995067-b333-481f-b50d-7bfc5f562e03

That is just a pinout adapter - you can output DVI on a HDMI connector - no way anyone is due a license for using a particular connector, just don't use the logo.

I've investigated this a few years ago. As long as it can transfer HDMI signal, you need to pay a full licence fee even for a stupid cable.

So call it DVI

[wraper]

So call it DVI

Read above, does not matter.

[ebastler]

I've investigated this a few years ago. As long as it can transfer HDMI signal, you need to pay a full licence fee even for a stupid cable.

But what  happens if it can't transmit an HDMI signal. (Only DVI. Or, for the sake of the argument, let's assume I decide to use an HDMI connector to transmit analog audio.  ) Does the use of the HDMI-style connector alone still incur a license fee?

[wraper]

I've investigated this a few years ago. As long as it can transfer HDMI signal, you need to pay a full licence fee even for a stupid cable.

But what  happens if it can't transmit an HDMI signal. (Only DVI. Or, for the sake of the argument, let's assume I decide to use an HDMI connector to transmit analog audio.  ) Does the use of the HDMI-style connector alone still incur a license fee?

DVI becomes HDMI, basically the same thing unless you need too high bitrate not supported by DVI. For audio, probably not, grey area. Tell me results once you have won a legal battle. Actually if they go against you, it might not even matter if you are right or wrong. Especially if you are located in US. You might be right but you'll lose (or won't afford legal process at all) a ton of money in legal battle anyway. That's how patent trolls earn their money, cheaper to pay ransom than prove you're right.

[mikeselectricstuff]

So unless there is a space constraint, the best option for the OP would appear to be to use a DVI connector.
DVI-HDMI cables and adaptors are readily available.

[wraper]

So unless there is a space constraint, the best option for the OP would appear to be to use a DVI connector.
DVI-HDMI cables and adaptors are readily available.

If you don't include adapter in the package, I guess it should be okay.

[knapik]

Wouldn't display port be suitable as an alternative? Actually, after looking it up, it seems you need to pay $5000 for VESA membership before getting access to the standard, but there is no royalty per device.

[wraper]

Wouldn't display port be suitable as an alternative? Actually, after looking it up, it seems you need to pay $5000 for VESA membership before getting access to the standard, but there is no royalty per device.

Yep, there is no royalty from VESA but MPEG LA a few years ago decided that everyone needs to pay them $ 0.20 per device because of their patent portfolio. VESA says that's unfounded BS though.

[SiliconWizard]

That fact than no one here knows the answer probably points most turning the blind eye to it.

I'm willing to think that is true.

Another thought is that it may be a bit like with USB. ( https://www.usb.org/logo-license )
Using the official USB logo implies you are licensed (and that your device passed compliance testing). But many manufacturers do not use the official logo and thus don't infringe on that AFAIK. The USB case is a bit trickier though as if you buy an USB vendor ID, you'll have to apply for USB-IF membership (if it hasn't changed), so you'll be granted the license without extra step except that your device is still supposed to be USB-IF compliant.

In the same vein, it's likely that selling a device having HDMI ports only requires licensing if you both use the official HDMI logo ( https://www.hdmi.org/logosphotos/logos.aspx ) and claim HDMI compliance.

Most sold USB devices are not really compliant (not provably at least) and can't claim USB compliance, but that doesn't prevent them from being sold, and I'd guess that the same holds with a lot of devices with HDMI ports.

Obviously the safe way is to directly ask the HDMI alliance: https://www.hdmi.org/

[wraper]

USB has no royalties. However you must be a member of USB-IF to receive and maintain VID. Membership costs IIRC $5k annually. And you can make as many devices as you want without paying any additional fees. Also you may use VID/PID given to you by IC manufacturer (MCU, USB/RS232 converter, etc.).