Largest Milled PCB yet?

[james_s]

It has only gotten worse despite Microsoft's lying assurances since it became a problem.  So far I have only needed to set the network configuration to "metered" to prevent inopportune updates and reboots.

I become very unhappy the first time a weeks worth of possessing time was lost.  Are people expected to even do work on PCs anymore?  I hope every person at Microsoft who thought this was a good idea gets lynched.

I wish I could send them a bill for all the time I've spent fixing the issues caused by updates at a machine shop and vet clinic I'm indirectly involved with. Critical systems getting updated to a new OS before the specialized software they run is supported, updates that take place whenever they please, nevermind the fact that shutting down the system that processes payments or stores and retrieves digital xrays and medical data and locking it out for an hour or more at arbitrary times during the business day has a very real cost.

I'm not one of those Linux fanboys but that's really starting to look like the only viable way forward. Not so much that Linux on the desktop is amazing, I mean it's ok but not without problems, but Windows has regressed in quality and usability to the point that I can no longer say that it's better. It's a shame too because IMO Win7 is superb, the pinnacle of MS operating system development. The very few issues it has are easily resolved, while 8 and 10 are incredibly user hostile.

[David Hess]

Configure the network interface to a metered connection to stop Windows from downloading updates until you do it manually.

Even better, flip the "don't update for a month" switch...

And then flip it again every month after?  And if I forget, random data death?  No thanks.  Besides which, I have already caught Microsoft flipping it back just a day later.

It is computers which are good for rote tasks, not humans.  If the computer is delegating rote tasks to the human, then that is the opposite of productivity.  Why is it again that Windows Explorer can no longer provide a directory sorted by folder size so I have to do it manually?

XP (and I assume everything afterward) had its own set of bad behaviors.  What happens when power is lost, so the UPS signals the system to shutdown because only 15 minutes of power remains, and the system responds by installing updates leading to an unplanned shutdown in the middle of the updates?

Yea, I'm not bitter.  Fuck you Microsoft.

[Mechatrommer]

Well complaining ms windows wont help anything, there is no better alternative productivity tools wise. You want 90's era dos command line of linux? talking to every productivity usb devices will require some sort of script no? How about everything upside down gui imac?  No thanks. windows xp is still the king, nothing matches its file explorer, if i only have one tool, it will be it, all the next generation explorer vista to 10 are all toy... if i have security sensitive materials, i have the latest antivirus, or using proven encryption sw, so even if my system got hacked,all they get is garbage files. I make fresh install image, so next time my system got corrupted, 10 minutes is all it takes to get back all the fresh install sw. And continue work. its a matter of knowing and using the tool. if we have to complain about it then we are using the wrong tool. Ymmv. My protest is i will keep using xp until they make window the way it should be, at least better functionality and productivity compared to xp. But moving away from windows is not an option there is simply no other alternative.

[Kilrah]

And then flip it again every month after? 

Flip it again the next time you need guaranteed "stay on".

But if you need that regularly just use group policy to set windows update to "notify only" like before.

[janoc]

Configure the network interface to a metered connection to stop Windows from downloading updates until you do it manually.

Even better, flip the "don't update for a month" switch...

That doesn't actually work reliably and gets regularly reset by Windows. The "Home" version of Windows 10 doesn't even have this option (nor does it have group policy editor), you can only delay the installation of an update - and if you aren't quick to react, it will "helpfully" schedule a reboot for you automatically.

[Kilrah]

The "Home" version of Windows 10 doesn't even have this option (nor does it have group policy editor)

You can do it via registry edits (or there are tricks to enable the group policy editor).
Clumsy yes, but possible.

[janoc]

We have been seeing the first 32 Bit boards getting around more and more over the last year or so, using 8 bit as some sort of a argument or point is what exactly? 8 bit apart from the bottom end of the market will be gone fairly soon IMO.

Well, you were talking about RAMPS. RAMPs is pretty much equivalent with 8bit AVRs, the original RAMPS was a shield for Arduino. That evolved over time into integrated all-in-one boards but the architecture remained pretty much the same.

Marlin is a fairly well developed and constantly evolving standalone interface to a CNC machine in the majority of cases it is 3D printers. There is no reason I can think of it couldn't be forked for example to a non ramps cnc router board in particular if done from scratch.

Marlin itself is not much of an issue, I believe there are some forks/variants for STM32 chips and others. It is more the RAMPs/driver part of the equation which sucks if you try to reuse a common 3D printer board with a CNC machine.

At the Hobby end sizes (lets just pick 3020 and smaller) what is needed is a some modification toward a 3D printer standalone solution. Local Data storage, G Code interpretation, Interface for jogging, setup etc. You are making an assumption that the CNC board would use bottom end Chinese step stick drivers like the 5+ year old RAMPS boards to do this would be a really poor choice given what hardware is already in use and available now.

Again, it was you talking about RAMPS and those are almost all designed around this. If you didn't mean that, then sorry but I don't read minds yet.

BTW, "Stepstick" is not Chinese, that's Pololu 's invention - a small DIP carrier board with an Allegro A4988 stepper driver (or similar - e.g. the Trinamic ones are popular) that gets inserted into female headers on the main board. When talking about "Stepstick" it is more about this form factor than anything else today. The idea behind this was to make the drivers easy to replace because the early designs they were failing regularly due to various overloading and short circuits on poorly built RepRaps (where this design comes from - RAMPS stands for "RepRap Arduino Mega Pololu Shield")

And even if the board doesn't use these "plug-in" driver boards, they often use the same stepper driver chips directly on the PCB. Either way they would be very underpowered/lacking cooling for a CNC machine.

OTOH, if you want to upgrade a router such as 3020, it shouldn't be too hard to interface a board running Marlin with the original electronics if it is serviceable (some are reasonably built but there are also some very poor ones around). It would need only a custom cable, removing the stepper drivers from the Marlin board (if it has any) and maybe some minor code modifications - the control interface for the "Stepstick" style stepper drivers is very similar (if not identical) to what these cheap routers use (a direction signal and a pulse for each step). That would be, IMO, better than trying to rip the old electronics out and trying to use a 3D printer board there instead.

[Kilrah]

OTOH, if you want to upgrade a router such as 3020, it shouldn't be too hard to interface a board running Marlin with the original electronics if it is serviceable (some are reasonably built but there are also some very poor ones around). It would need only a custom cable, removing the stepper drivers from the Marlin board (if it has any) and maybe some minor code modifications - the control interface for the "Stepstick" style stepper drivers is very similar (if not identical) to what these cheap routers use (a direction signal and a pulse for each step). That would be, IMO, better than trying to rip the old electronics out and trying to use a 3D printer board there instead.

Indeed. But while Marlin could totally serve as "g-code execution machine" on a router, for most uses you need manual controls a lot and that's all missing in it. There is a whole bunch of dev work to do to integrate jogging, offsets etc as well as everything you need a router's panel for into the UI...

[janoc]

Indeed. But while Marlin could totally serve as "g-code execution machine" on a router, for most uses you need manual controls a lot and that's all missing in it. There is a whole bunch of dev work to do to integrate jogging, offsets etc as well as everything you need a router's panel for into the UI...

That's true. I believe Marlin has some support for basic LCD/encoder based UI but that's good only for homing the machine and launching the job, not much else.

I don't think it even supports stuff like work/tool offsets at all - there is nothing like it on 3D printers (there is no "work" or tool offset to speak of, you only carefully calibrate the Z axis offset and level the bed), so it would surprise me if it did. Also Marlin's G-code is a variant that is tailored for 3D printers, so it has 3D printing specific features but will likely miss features needed for a milling machine.

GRBL is better option for a CNC mill in this regard:
https://github.com/grbl/grbl

It still doesn't have UI but at least it supports the necessary settings and the UI can be added.

[Kilrah]

Marlin actually has quite a few things not related to 3D printers... it handles a spindle with adjustable speed, direction etc, laser heads,... so it could actually already include most of what's needed on the G-code side. I've gone through it relatively quickly a few months ago when I bought a cheap laser head, and successfully reconfigured and recompiled my printer's Marlin to use it, was basically not much more than uncommenting a few #defines to enable the features and find/map a suitable spare pin.

Yeah there's a "move axis" feature in the UI but it's extremely clumsy, even for a 3D printer it's a pain, thankfully you rarely need it.

[beanflying]

There is some Marlin specific deviation to what might be considered 'Normal' GCode not a deal breaker by any means and I haven't tried to go through the list but it does exist https://reprap.org/wiki/G-code

Move axis is a PITA on my Ender Pro's as I haven't played with the firmware to include a bed leveling routine YET. No intentions to put a sensor on it either. Changing that to respond to some sort of thumb controller in X & Y would be fairly straight forward. Z move on a secondary of some sort.

Start Stop for tool changing exists in some form and moving the head to accomplish that must exist looking at the E3D changer some time back. I have never looked at tool offsets shouldn't they be handled in processing before the job starts?

If forking Marlin or writing a GRBL UI from the ground up is the better option you would need to research thoroughly  before starting.

[IconicPCB]

That is no more than an hours job on a decent milling machine.
Please post Your G code file for a better estimate of time.

The largest single panel I have machined is a full size 470 x580 panel with at least a dozen different designs on it.

[janoc]

Start Stop for tool changing exists in some form and moving the head to accomplish that must exist looking at the E3D changer some time back. I have never looked at tool offsets shouldn't they be handled in processing before the job starts?

Erm, nope. The machine operator isn't going to run the job back to the CAM guy to reprocess the file for each of his or her machines only because the tools are worn out differently on them. Furthermore, you need to update this frequently if you want to keep producing parts that are correctly sized (tools are wearing out continuously).

You measure the tools (some machines can do it themselves, on others you have to remove the tool and measure it externally) and enter the measured lengths/diameters/whatever into the controller so that it can compensate when the code tells it to perform a certain move.

The same story for probing/locating the work in the workspace of the machine. When milling PCBs it is not that big deal (just set the origin somewhere so that the board fits on your blank by jogging the cutter to touch the surface) but when you are actually milling slots or drilling holes into an existing piece, it matters - having this set wrong will make the machine drill/mill in wrong places or, in the worst case, crash the tool into the work or chassis, trashing both the work, tool and possibly messing the machine up as well.