Author Topic: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts. [blown yet again][blown count: 5]  (Read 24179 times)

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Offline RefrigeratorTopic starter

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For a while now i've been thinking of building a welder. I've recently bought a rusty old car to restore, which makes it a perfect opportunity to actually make the welder.
That and the fact that i spent all of my spare money on the car and i couldn't afford a decent welder even if i wanted.

MIG welders are most well suited for car body repairs so i'll be making that.
For the brains i'll be using an ATX power supply with the primary BJT push-pull circuit replaced with an IGBT push-pull circuit, including a new transformer. MIG welders work at constant voltage so the ATX PSU controller will need minimal modifications for my purpose.

Basically what i'm making is an ATX PSU on steroids.

An ATX PC case will be used as the case for the welder, to which a secondary ATX PSU will be added, this PSU will provide power to the CO2 solenoid and wire feed motor.
With the original transformer no longer in place the welder controller will no longer have voltage rails such as -12 and -5, without which it will shut down because undervoltage, this will also be taken care of by the secondary ATX PSU.

The green enable wire will be connected to the trigger, this way there won't be any voltage unless it's time to weld.
Just so happened that i recently replaced the old LPG injectors in my car so i will use the old ones to control the CO2, there being 4 solenoids in total means that i can have controlled gas for stuff like purge or whatever else.

Biggest problem was sourcing the diodes, i wanted something that could take the current and was fast (because SMPS) and i just so happened to spot these 150EBU04 which should work just fine.
Since the cheap ones on ebay are probably chinese knock offs i'll be doubling them up for redundancy (same with IGBT's), so i went to order 4 of them but i forgot to type 4 in the quantity so only one was ordered, no problem i'll order the other 3 from a different seller with a similar listing (same pictures, same diode) to see which one ships quicker. ( i do that often )
Big mistake, the one i ordered was the right part but the other three came in this dumb package (included pics) that i'll have to make work somehow. I scraped one with a knife to see if it's actually copper (it was) and did a quick forward voltage test, which was about 0,55V at 6A if i remember right, so not terrible.
If they blow so be it i won't know until i try.

Any thoughts on this? Some advice perhaps?



« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 05:21:14 pm by Refrigerator »
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Offline strawberry

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2019, 09:52:46 pm »
overcurrent protention circuit, current sense transformer, prefered current mode controller, large enough heatsink...

BJT ATX current sense circuitry relay on base current variation and IGBT wont work in such circuit

Diodes in MIG welder have to hold high peak currents.

I used 150EBU04 for transformer MIG welder repair and one out of four blewup. I think these were fake??
your diodes could be fake as package dimentions does not match IR datasheet spec.
Mount it on heatsink and monitor junction temperature rise .
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 10:19:25 pm by strawberry »
 

Offline cur8xgo

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2019, 10:08:08 pm »
Whats your transformer design look like so far? Any idea of operating frequency?
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2019, 10:18:46 pm »
FYI... you can't just slap things together and expect them to work.

The ATX supply controller isn't a terrible starting point, but you need to provide all the interfaces required:
1. Auxiliary supply
2. Voltage sense/feedback
3. Current fault (or sense)
4. Gate drive

1. Supply is usually from the motherboard 5V standby supply, alongside the main converter.  Usually a smaller transformer and a single-transistor driver (either an old fashioned 1T blocking oscillator circuit, or the more modern equivalent with an offline regulator IC which may be transistor-sized, or DIP or SOIC).

To power the gate drive, you will need a bigger supply.  Standby is typically 5V 1A or something like that; expect to need 12V or more at a few 100mA.

2. This should be okay, wired in the same way (a resistor from the output(s) to the feedback node, with common ground tied to the output).  But beware of voltage and current surges even over short lengths of that ground -- use star-grounding and lots of filtering, TVS protection, and shielding preferably, to keep the controller comfortable.

3. This is your first complication.  If the original circuit has a current fault (the usual case), it won't be very useful for you as such.  It's usually a latching function, so as soon as you spark up (or maybe during one of the myriad sparks that makes up a running bead -- GMAW draws intermittent load current), it just stops.

This should be changed to a current limiting function, so that if current rises over the limit, PWM throttles back, maintaining the arc without destroying the power supply.

Bypassing or omitting this function will lead to destruction.  You may still be able to run some beads, but the bucketful of burnt transistors and other components won't be very economical.

4. This is your second complication.  You can't simply replace BJTs with IGBTs and expect anything to happen at all, let alone survive more than one switching cycle without exploding.

So the original driver circuit and transformer is useless to you.   Well, you could perhaps rewind the transformer as a GDT (gate drive transformer), but you still need something to drive it in the way IGBTs expect to be driven.

You will also be using quite large IGBTs (or MOSFETs), to deliver the required kilowatts.  These have continually improved over the years, but you're still looking at 100-200nC of gate charge required.

What's a nC?  A nanocoulomb is a unit of charge.  Charge is current * time.  It takes current to change the gate voltage -- the gate has a capacitive characteristic, so gate voltage and charge are proportional -- and to move the gate in some amount of time, requires current.  For a switching frequency of 100kHz or so, you need switching under 200ns or so.

So we calculate the required peak gate current as:
Qg (gate charge) / t_r (rise time) = Ipk

Actually peak current may be a bit higher than that, because waveforms, but it's in the right ballpark.  An ampere peak, in fractional microseconds, also requires low inductance.

What is inductance?  Inductance is the voltage drop associated with a change in current:
V = L * dI/dt

So if we're driving an amp of current into the gate, in much less than 200ns (because that current needs to rise, and then fall), and we can only afford to drop say 5V in the process, we need much less than L = (5V) * (200ns) / (1A) = 1uH.

This sets the maximum leakage inductance for the GDT.

So we already know we need a GDT of some level of performance.

5. The last, and major, concern you will have, is constructing the new inverter and rectifier entirely from scratch.  There isn't anything you can reuse from the original circuit -- the BJTs are too small, the rectifier and transformer are too small, the capacitors...  You will be using larger components, so even if you copy the layout and scale it for the new components, the layout will be larger.

Stray inductance limits us again here.  When one transistor turns off, all the current it was carrying, has to drop to zero, and the load current has to find another route (usually a clamp diode).  This change in current, must not produce an excessive voltage drop -- else transistosplosions -- and so we again can find a maximum inductance.

Say the inverter is supplied by 360VDC and delivers 20A peak, and turns off in 200ns; to use 600V transistors, we only have 240V of headroom, and so L < (240V) * (200ns) / (20A) = 2.4uH.  (Probably, a time of ~50ns would be more representative -- transistors sharpen risetimes, so if you're getting 200ns at the gate, the collector will be less.  We also don't want to run with zero headroom, so a voltage excess of 50 or 100V would be much more comfortable.  Which gives a much safer limit of L < 0.3uH.)

What gives inductance?  Length.  Simple as that.  The inductance of free space is 1.257 uH/m.

Because of geometry effects, the inductance/length of a typical wire is lower, maybe 0.3 to 0.6 uH/m.  Circuits also contain loops -- there's no meaningful notion of the inductance of a free wire -- so we need to count the full loop path length.

For an inverter, the loop length starts at one transistor, through the catch diode (again, usually the opposing inverter transistor -- note you'll need co-pack IGBTs here), through the supply bypass/filter cap, back to the one transistor.

So this is why even merely scaling up the existing layout, isn't a sure thing.  You're scaling up all the lengths, so Lstray goes up proportionally.  (Incidentally, a proportional scaling keeps the geometric factors constant, so this is actually a very accurate representation.  Whereas using different sized traces or spacings would change the geometric factors some.)

You likely won't succeed by bolting transistors to a heatsink and wiring them with hookup wire -- even with short leads, you'll incur loop lengths of fractional meters, and 0.1's of uH.

Example from an early project I did:



Two pairs of IGBTs, half bridge configuration (two in parallel, each side).  The two copper plates are +/- DC bus (the three red caps, and two blue ones, bypass them together).  The little plate in the middle is the output node (leading to the bank of many red caps, and the load, out of frame).  The stray inductance of this configuration was around 20 or 30nH (0.02-0.03uH), pretty good.

Another good method is to use a 4-layer board, with solid pours: DC+ on top, DC- on bottom, and OUT in the middle.  This can get Lstray in the single digits nH range.  Not an extreme you need to go to, but it's pretty cheap (< $200) considering how effective it is.

Then there's the transformer.  You can't use the ATX transformer, or core.  You might be able to use a dozen of them wired together, if you happen to have identical supplies to gut.  More likely you will be winding one new?  Big cores like ETD59 and 87+ mm toroids are easily purchased, so that's fine.  The wire needs some attention.  You can't use solid wire at this frequency -- it'll get way too hot, skin effect.  Preferably you'd use Litz cable, assembled from a gazillion strands of 30 AWG or finer.  You can also use foil/tape/strip/sheet, but how well depends on the ratio (if you have lots of turns stacked up, foil will be worse than round wire; it has to be interleaved, always primary facing secondary, never primary facing primary, to work out).

Here again, we have length -- winding wire length -- and so, stray inductance, also called leakage inductance.  This matters to the rectifier, depending on how you're arranging it.

If you opt for a FWCT configuration, then the leakage between ends of the secondary impacts the peak voltage the diodes will see.  That is, when one diode turns off, its current flow has to divert to the other diode, and this can only be done through the length of the winding between them.

You can easily exceed the 400V limit of those diodes, even for a mere 50V nominal output, with a careless transformer winding.  So it's very important.

You have some savings with a FWB configuration: there's always a pair of diodes to grab either polarity of flyback voltage.  Downsides: a. you're burning twice the voltage drop in the diodes -- a big deal at 100A+; b. the diodes are clamping into a filter choke, which doesn't really clamp at all, it's just another inductance, right?...  So for this reason, you may need a large TVS (or some means of hard voltage clamping) at the rectifier output, or across the diodes.

Other clamping means would include an RCD clamp snubber -- a catch diode dumps the flyback into a beefy capacitor, and a resistor bleeds away the accumulated charge.  Note that diode-capacitor loop needs to be very short, otherwise the series inductance will defeat its purpose.

If you have enough voltage overhead, an MOV can be used.  For a 50V output and FWCT configuration, the nominal reverse voltage per diode is somewhat over 100V.  A 100VDC-nominal MOV could be used, which will have a peak breakdown voltage around 300V (MOVs are not actually very good at clamping, they're just economical), and so 400V+ diodes could be used safely.

And obviously, all the output connections need to be beefy -- you'd probably need a custom fab PCB to do this (heavy copper).  A regular proto fab PCB could be used with a lot of soldered-on strap to increase ampacity.  Takes a bit of faffing to do.  Or it can be constructed from cut and formed sheet, insulated with plastic sheet and clamped with plastic hardware.

6. Other things.

If you're confident in modifying a circuit so extensively, why settle for the -12 and -5V undervoltage circuits?  Why not bypass or remove them?  Or reuse the comparator for something else, perhaps?  (I...dunno what; some dumb timers or something?..)

What filtering network will you choose?  A traditional choke-input, then capacitor filter is what the controller is expecting.  The capacitor may work against your load, however (the arc has a negative resistance and tends to oscillate with capacitors and cable inductance).  You could use just a choke, but the controller will have to be adjusted for that; it also won't be able to regulate the voltage very well, because that's what a choke does, it allows voltage to vary while resisting changes in current.  In particular, the flyback voltage when the arc breaks, will destroy pretty much anything directly connected to the output node.

You could put some capacitance on there, or some R+C damping, to provide some filtering and dampening of ripple and flyback, but this will dissipate quite a lot of heat (even if it's handling 10% of full output power, that's hundreds of watts continuous!).

Probably a modest amount of electrolytic capacitance will behave anyway, but be careful here too, because those caps will heat up quickly if you are expecting a lot of ripple current from them.  Again, if you're running a ~10% ripple fraction, that's still hundreds of VA, and dozens of watts the capacitors will dissipate -- you'll need many more capacitors than are found in an ATX supply to handle that.

So, all in all, this is an ambitious project -- it is not an impossible one, but it will lead to the discovery of much new arcane knowledge, and it will take a long time to complete (years).

If you're really looking for a learning experience with a shorter payoff, consider something smaller in scale.  Or, if you can't push yourself to concentrate on a single project for years -- I certainly can't, I still have some of that above-referenced project floating around, over a decade later...

Or consider something closer to completion already -- pick up a shitbox inverter welder, and see how it's made.  Tweak it for better performance (water cooling for high duty cycle?), or add control features.  Once you have more experience, you'll be able to take on a project like this in much less time (maybe months?).  Maybe not a welder from scratch, since you'll already have one then, but maybe something related like an induction heater, or play with pulsed high voltage (Tesla coils) for not much practical purpose but much amusement instead.

Good luck!

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
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Offline RefrigeratorTopic starter

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2019, 10:12:54 am »

So, all in all, this is an ambitious project -- it is not an impossible one, but it will lead to the discovery of much new arcane knowledge, and it will take a long time to complete (years).

I plan to have this one finished in a month.

The IGBT's i'll be using are H20R1203, 20A, 1200V, 211nC gate charge.
Peak gate current turns out just over 1A, which means the wimpy TO-92 drive transistors (basically in all cheapo ATX PSU's) will be replaced for something better.
Why do i plan on leaving -12 and -5 rails in? Well not anymore i don't, reason being the previous donor PSU had a fancy controller with internal voltage sense comparators.
I've decided to use the good old TL494, 200mA on output means i can use some fat transistors to drive the GDT, and the external comparator means much less hassle.

A snubber on the secondary of my transformer should keep the diodes from breaking down.

Diodes and IGBT's will be connected point-to-point with thick wire, no need for a PCB this way, the only PCB i'll be making will be for the gate drive circuit for each IGBT.

For my transformer core i'll be using the core from the back of a big old CRT, the core is pretty big and i've seen someone make a working welder with one.

CRT TV's also happen so have a big coil of wire around the CRT (the demagnetization coil or whatever it's called), i'll use it as litz wire on my secondary.

Also any advice on removing the enamel off a wire, but without burning because i've tried it and it doesn't work one bit.
I think i've seen someone use a wire wheel so i'll give that a try.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 10:16:04 am by Refrigerator »
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Offline MagicSmoker

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2019, 11:35:24 am »
I plan to have this one finished in a month.

Ignorance is bliss, and all that.


...the previous donor PSU had a fancy controller with internal voltage sense comparators.
I've decided to use the good old TL494, 200mA on output means i can use some fat transistors to drive the GDT, and the external comparator means much less hassle.
...
Diodes and IGBT's will be connected point-to-point with thick wire, no need for a PCB this way, the only PCB i'll be making will be for the gate drive circuit for each IGBT.
...
For my transformer core i'll be using the core from the back of a big old CRT, the core is pretty big and i've seen someone make a working welder with one.

So... what is the original ATX PSU being used for, then?


A snubber on the secondary of my transformer should keep the diodes from breaking down.

"A little dab'll do ya," as the old commercial jingle for [I can't remember what] went.


Also any advice on removing the enamel off a wire, but without burning because i've tried it and it doesn't work one bit.
I think i've seen someone use a wire wheel so i'll give that a try.

Finally a question that isn't completely mental... There are basically 3 ways to remove enamel insulation semi-practical for the home-gamer: 1) abrasion, which works for any type of wire; 2) dipping in a pot of alkali metal salts dissolved in molten sodium or potassium hydroxide (don't get any in your eyes!); 3) dipping in a pot of molten solder.

***

This reply might seem a bit flippant (because it is), but the fact is this is a terrible idea with almost zero economic justification (as Tim already pointed out in a reply he probably regrets spending so much time writing). The two-switch forward is commonly used in ATX PSUs and is a good choice of topology for either a CC (TIG, stick) or CV (MIG) welder, but you will need a core area in the 6+ cm² range, which is at least 3x bigger than any core you'll find in a COTS power supply. Then there is the matter of the output choke, which typically requires a core area of around half that of the transformer. You can make bigger cores out of smaller ones IF they have rectangular cross sections (basically, some U, E and toroidal shapes), but a flyback transformer from an old TV? Fuhgetaboutit.

If I were to do this - and believe me, I wouldn't - it would probably take me a couple of months, minimum, and cost at least $500, and that is with the benefit of several square meters worth of shelving containing SMPS parts and a lab decked out specifically for the task.

If the goal is to learn something, well, you'll certainly do a lot of that, but it has been my experience - and probably not too dissimilar to all but the most genius among us - that learning proceeds far more efficiently when you take on incrementally more difficult projects, rather than leaping straight into a monumental one.

 

Offline strawberry

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2019, 11:58:19 am »
for $500 worth of parts you could start to compete with miller
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2019, 12:12:52 pm »
I remove the enamel by burning the wire end with the open flame of a cigarette lighter for a few seconds, then carefully wipe the burned enamel off with a fine (500-2000 grit) sand paper. The copper does get a little more brittle due to the heat, but this hasn't been a problem for me.

I have learned a lot by taking monumentally complex projects, but OTOH I have never talked about them in the forums or asked for help because everybody would have just told me not to do it :). If you have to start with a lot of questions, it may not work out that well. An iterative process where you have a good idea where to start and then develop questions "why this happens?" tends to work better.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 12:14:58 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline RefrigeratorTopic starter

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2019, 12:17:28 pm »

This reply might seem a bit flippant (because it is), but the fact is this is a terrible idea with almost zero economic justification (as Tim already pointed out in a reply he probably regrets spending so much time writing). The two-switch forward is commonly used in ATX PSUs and is a good choice of topology for either a CC (TIG, stick) or CV (MIG) welder, but you will need a core area in the 6+ cm² range, which is at least 3x bigger than any core you'll find in a COTS power supply. Then there is the matter of the output choke, which typically requires a core area of around half that of the transformer. You can make bigger cores out of smaller ones IF they have rectangular cross sections (basically, some U, E and toroidal shapes), but a flyback transformer from an old TV? Fuhgetaboutit.


The flyback core was my initial idea, i've seen people use four smaller cores to make one larger core, but what i decided to use isn't that.
As mentioned it was from the back of a CRT, and as far as i'm aware there are no TV's where the flyback transformer is mounted to the CRT.
I'll include a pic below, also a pic of the coil i was talking about (hand for reference), it's about 7.5 mm thick, probably around 7 mm without the tape, which should be plenty.

Edit: finally remembered, the coil is called a degaussing coil.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 12:51:29 pm by Refrigerator »
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Offline strawberry

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Offline MagicSmoker

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2019, 01:55:14 pm »
for $500 worth of parts you could start to compete with miller

Not when you are buying those parts in quantities of 1-10 from the usual distributors. Also, $500 worth of parts does not get you a Miller design... And I know at least anecdotally of what I speak, as I have a cute little Miller inverter TIG/stick welder that is almost 20 years old (!) and still working great. It is a real work of art inside and uses a phase-shifted full bridge topology; something that was still very much considered "experimental" at the time.

EDIT - apparently Miller didn't design this model (MaxStar 140 STR), either... so not even buying a Miller will get you a Miller design... Oy vey!


The flyback core was my initial idea, i've seen people use four smaller cores to make one larger core, but what i decided to use isn't that.
As mentioned it was from the back of a CRT, and as far as i'm aware there are no TV's where the flyback transformer is mounted to the C
...
Edit: finally remembered, the coil is called a degaussing coil.

Oh dear...  :-BROKE
 

Offline RefrigeratorTopic starter

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2019, 02:27:04 pm »

Oh dear...  :-BROKE
It will work, i promise  :-DD
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Offline strawberry

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2019, 02:42:48 pm »
my asumtion is based on my calculations for 230V 3 phase inverter. 300$ is enough to make decent welding inverter

interesting question is, how are you going to make wire feed mechanism?
 

Offline cur8xgo

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2019, 03:39:47 pm »
I think its possible to cobble together a working prototype of this in a month if you approach it seriously, have a basic understanding of the design issues (especially switching transients destroying things), and can get the magnetics close enough for a 30 second weld.

Can we organize the design plan a bit?

Topology: Is this a 115VAC rectified to DC switched into xfrmr for 24V out or something like that?
Magnetics (transformer): What is the proposed design? Core and number of turns of what material? How hot will the core and windings get? What is the operating frequency?
Switches: What IGBT? Why IGBT? What temperature will they get to?
Heat sinking: How much power needs to be dissipated and how will it be done?
Switch control: Can't use the existing IGBT control circuit?
Current control: So does this need some kind of current feedback servo loop or not? And how will that be done?
Switching transients: How will these be snubbed?
Full bridge: What diodes and how hot will they get? What sort of capacitance and inductance will be used to smooth the DC for the torch?
Bussing: How will high current be routed as far as bus bars while keeping things very short and balanced?

Its possible to use a completely unregulated voltage source like two car batteries to run a mig welder. But that only applies if the voltage source is near the desired welding voltage. Just something to keep in mind. http://readywelder.com

« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 03:41:27 pm by cur8xgo »
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2019, 04:34:22 pm »
I think its possible to cobble together a working prototype of this in a month if you approach it seriously

Yes I agree, but using a degaussing coil as a core material might not be a good start.  :clap:

Nevertheless, do it! It will be fun.
 

Offline RefrigeratorTopic starter

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2019, 04:49:53 pm »
I think its possible to cobble together a working prototype of this in a month if you approach it seriously, have a basic understanding of the design issues (especially switching transients destroying things), and can get the magnetics close enough for a 30 second weld.
30 seconds is plenty considering i will be welding car panels and anything more than a couple seconds will warp the panels and ruin my day.


Can we organize the design plan a bit?

Topology: Is this a 115VAC rectified to DC switched into xfrmr for 24V out or something like that?
A: 230 VAC

Magnetics (transformer): What is the proposed design? Core and number of turns of what material? How hot will the core and windings get? What is the operating frequency?
A: I'll unwind a couple SMPS transformers to get my numbers in the right ballpark and go from there.

Switches: What IGBT? Why IGBT? What temperature will they get to?
A: H20R1203, IGBT because all the cool kids do it.

Heat sinking: How much power needs to be dissipated and how will it be done?
A: P4 heatsinks should be fine i think, with a fan of course.

Switch control: Can't use the existing IGBT control circuit?
A: ATX PSUs use BJTs, i doubt that would work.

Current control: So does this need some kind of current feedback servo loop or not? And how will that be done?
I'll use the existing comparator, they have a crowbar circuit to latch so i'll just make it not latch.

Switching transients: How will these be snubbed?
A: diode+resistor+capacitor

Full bridge: What diodes and how hot will they get? What sort of capacitance and inductance will be used to smooth the DC for the torch?
A: two secondaries for two half bridges each with two 150EBU04 diodes in parallel, full bridge would double the losses = double the heat.

Bussing: How will high current be routed as far as bus bars while keeping things very short and balanced?
A: lots of thick wire i guess.



I think its possible to cobble together a working prototype of this in a month if you approach it seriously

Yes I agree, but using a degaussing coil as a core material might not be a good start.  :clap:

Nevertheless, do it! It will be fun.

Do you mean the XY deflection core? The degaussing coil does not have a core it's just a very long coil with lots of thin wire, basically litz wire if you cut through it.
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2019, 04:58:59 pm »
The deflection yoke core BTW is some horrible kind of material, not sure what.  Seems to have lower permeability, Bsat and higher losses than the usual stuff.  Maybe stability of permeability is the tradeoff?  Dunno.

A stack of four FBT cores isn't bad.  There's plenty of room to get all the wire you need in there, and while the core area could be higher, you aren't using that much more wire in exchange.

You will want to pay careful attention to how much interleaving is done on the transformer windings.  Primary and secondary need to be as close as possible*.  Probably you'll need many sections of primary and secondary in parallel, to get the total current rating up, while using fine-ish stranded wire (degaussing coils are probably okay, but you'll need a lot of them to finish the transformer).

*And I really mean as possible here, not just a wave-of-the-hands "probably good enough".  You could wind a thousand twisted pairs and connect them in parallel, and get about the right transformer impedance here (<< 1 Ω!).  Anything else you do will have a higher impedance, and therefore more leakage inductance.  Foil windings, and multifilar (flat cable, lots of strands in parallel, broadside) are your friends here.

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Offline cur8xgo

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2019, 05:15:46 pm »
IGBT because the high voltage right? Otherwise wouldn't MOSFETs be less loss and easier to drive?

I'm interested in exactly how current will be limited to allow sheet metal usage. It might actually be easier to make a welder which welds thicker material than thinner material in this respect.

Torch + feed drive systems are available from communist china on aliexpress and ebay FYI

That diode is about 0.8V @ 100A. Wouldnt a single secondary with a full bridge and four of these 0.5V @ 80A (parallell) waste less power? https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=DSSK%2080-0045B

Can you elaborate on the SMPS transformer reusage plan?

Can you also talk about frequency of operation? I am actually really interested in how you are going to get the transformer right.

Can you draw up a basic schematic so we can all talk about it? This is a cool project






 

Offline cur8xgo

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Offline RefrigeratorTopic starter

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2019, 05:36:05 pm »
The deflection yoke core BTW is some horrible kind of material, not sure what.  Seems to have lower permeability, Bsat and higher losses than the usual stuff.  Maybe stability of permeability is the tradeoff?  Dunno.

A stack of four FBT cores isn't bad.  There's plenty of room to get all the wire you need in there, and while the core area could be higher, you aren't using that much more wire in exchange.

You will want to pay careful attention to how much interleaving is done on the transformer windings.  Primary and secondary need to be as close as possible*.  Probably you'll need many sections of primary and secondary in parallel, to get the total current rating up, while using fine-ish stranded wire (degaussing coils are probably okay, but you'll need a lot of them to finish the transformer).

*And I really mean as possible here, not just a wave-of-the-hands "probably good enough".  You could wind a thousand twisted pairs and connect them in parallel, and get about the right transformer impedance here (<< 1 Ω!).  Anything else you do will have a higher impedance, and therefore more leakage inductance.  Foil windings, and multifilar (flat cable, lots of strands in parallel, broadside) are your friends here.

Tim

Damn, i thought i hit jackpot when i found that core, turns out not. I really wanted to use it because it had a lot of space for windings.
Also i counted my FBT cores and i have 5x132mm2, 3x143mm2 and 2x176.6mm2 cores.
Meanwhile a typical 350W ATX PSU core has a 95mm2 area.

I also wanted to find a picture of the one done with a deflection yoke but couldn't find it, i did, however, find one that used two FBT cores for an inverter stick welder/plasma cutter:
https://www.edaboard.com/showthread.php?374338-Homemade-Arc-inverter-welder-And-Plasma-cutter-power

The FBT cores might be a bit of a squeeze form my welder transformer but i'll try.

Mig wire feed system $19
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-24V-DC-10W-Mig-Welder-Wire-Feed-Motor-Mig-Wire-Motor-Mig-Wire-Feeder/153325626788

Mig torch + cable/connector $64 (oops I mean mig "touch" apparently)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MIG-Welding-Gun-Torch-Stinger-Replacement-Miller-169598-250-Amp-M-25-15FT/392266137032

I've already found a MIG torch for 30€ locally (by locally i mean in my country) and i'll use a windshield wiper motor for my wire feed for maximum DIY points.
The torch i'll be using: http://irankiai-fb.lt/lt/suvirinimo-irangos-dalys/14708-suvirinimo-zarna.html
There are other ones for 30€ as well but this particular one should be easier to hook up without having to order a socket.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 05:45:07 pm by Refrigerator »
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Offline RefrigeratorTopic starter

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2019, 06:23:54 pm »
IGBT because the high voltage right? Otherwise wouldn't MOSFETs be less loss and easier to drive?

Driving them would be pretty much the same because they both have a gate, MOSFETs would have lower losses but i have CPU heatsinks to spare so it won't be too big of a deal to get rid of the heat.

I'm interested in exactly how current will be limited to allow sheet metal usage. It might actually be easier to make a welder which welds thicker material than thinner material in this respect.

I could add a timer to the welder for short welds, current will be handled through a current transformer.


Torch + feed drive systems are available from communist china on aliexpress and ebay FYI

That diode is about 0.8V @ 100A. Wouldnt a single secondary with a full bridge and four of these 0.5V @ 80A (parallell) waste less power? https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=DSSK%2080-0045B

That's assuming 100% duty cycle (in welding terms) on some thick metal, if i remember right MIG welders work in the 60-ish amp range.

Can you elaborate on the SMPS transformer reusage plan?

I'll unwind it to see how the boys at chinatown do it and toss it away.

Can you also talk about frequency of operation? I am actually really interested in how you are going to get the transformer right.

I looked online and it seems like 22kHz and 33kHz are are the most common switching frequencies, my board being from a 350W supply i expect the latter.

Can you draw up a basic schematic so we can all talk about it? This is a cool project

Not much to draw except the gate drive, for SMPS schematics you can check out this:
http://danyk.cz/s_atx_en.html
^^^^excellent source for anyone tinkering with ATX PSUs.
I'll also include a my gate drive schematic.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 06:29:22 pm by Refrigerator »
I have a blog at http://brimmingideas.blogspot.com/ . Now less empty than ever before !
An expert of making MOSFETs explode.
 

Offline cur8xgo

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2019, 07:26:36 pm »
Okay dumb question....why an inverter? Why not just drive a 60hz transformer and full bridge the output?

Or go totally bare bones and just have a transformer in a box like harbor freight does with their 125amp 110v mig welder

I guess now I am wondering why AC powered inverters exist at all....is it just because switching faster could reduce transformer size vs 60Hz?



 

Offline RefrigeratorTopic starter

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2019, 07:34:17 pm »
So far i've unwound two ATX transformers and they're pretty much the same, i only counted turns on primaries and the 5V secondaries since those were the main windings so to say.
Transformer consists of two 19T primaries, while 5V secondaries are 4T each sandwiched between the two 19T primaries.
Let's say i use four of my smaller 132mm2 cores for one 528mm2 transformer core, that means it's got about 5.3 times more cross sectional area than the ATX PSU core.
So basically my primary will now be 19T/5.3 = 3.58 ~ 4T and secondary (because i need 22V, 22/5=4.4) 4T*4.4/5.3=3.32 ~ 3T.
I'm pretty sure those numbers i just came up with are a pretty good recipe for some magic smoke, but that winding ratio should mean about 25% duty cycle.

Okay dumb question....why an inverter? Why not just drive a 60hz transformer and full bridge the output?

Or go totally bare bones and just have a transformer in a box like harbor freight does with their 125amp 110v mig welder

I guess now I am wondering why AC powered inverters exist at all....is it just because switching faster could reduce transformer size vs 60Hz?


I have a german made AC buzzbox and it's so heavy that you need two people to carry it, you can still pick it up by yourself but it's dangerously heavy.
Meanwhile inverter welders are small, easy to carry and have all kinds of features.
Edit: i could add a full bridge with SCRs with some control circuitry to control the output current and voltage but for above mentioned reasons i won't, also with a CO2 cylinder it would be even heavier and more awkward to carry around, not to mention the wire feed and spool, i would be well over 100kg.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 07:39:34 pm by Refrigerator »
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An expert of making MOSFETs explode.
 

Offline RefrigeratorTopic starter

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2019, 07:55:23 pm »
Did some calculations with an online calculator and i think i'll settle for a 10T primary and an 8T secondary.
I have a blog at http://brimmingideas.blogspot.com/ . Now less empty than ever before !
An expert of making MOSFETs explode.
 

Offline cur8xgo

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Re: Homemade IGBT MIG welder with ATX PSU parts.
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2019, 08:23:03 pm »
Did some calculations with an online calculator and i think i'll settle for a 10T primary and an 8T secondary.

What kind of open circuit voltage do you get with a 10:8 ratio on a 240VAC rectified input?


 


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