Author Topic: How to protect RS232 RX/TX lines from overvoltage/overcurrent, not from ESD?  (Read 9138 times)

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Offline David Hess

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Default load spec for RS232 is > 3k, so 15V can deliver 5mA, as a driver. You need a driver series element that allows that, but limits energy from 48V

I used a parallel output discrete solution for a driver, described below.
 
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A LED current driver like NSI50010YT1G limits to ~10mA up to 50V, whilst dropping about 500mV at 5mA
Two of those in series, with two 14V series zeners, will limit the intrusion to 10mA/15V worst case, and be ok to +/- 65V

I recently took some LED bulbs apart to diagnose why they are failing and found those little LED ballasts.  The datasheets say they shut down at high temperature, so could be an improvement over depletion mode MOSFETs.  One LED ballast could be used inside of a diode bridge with only one more diode drop, although this applies to any DC solution.

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Depletion mode mosfets have less control on current, and adding series resistors gives more voltage drop.

The resistance value can be pretty low compared to the driver impedance and depletion mode MOSFETs can be sized for continuous overload.

Well, let's see.  Standard mitigations apply:
- Fuse (including of PTC type, polymer or ceramic) and TVS (esp. SIDAC type)
- Series resistor and clamp (as above schematic, but mind the voltage range better, as noted at the end)
- Current limiter, especially back-to-back depletion MOS, or CCSs + diode bridge for high bandwidth (ref: old Tektronix sampler input stages)
- AC/DC (MOS) type SSR + window comparator, turn it off when out of range (still needs a TVS or whatever to handle overvoltage/current before switch opens, some ~ms)
- Custom interface: receiver could be constructed from resistors and a comparator; transmitter could use discrete transistors to achieve much higher power dissipation and voltage range while meeting specs.

The diode bridge is really good for high bandwidth, but also works fine at slow speeds.  I like back-to-back depletion mode MOSFETs, which can be sized to handle continuous overloads, or one depletion mode MOSFET inside of a diode bridge for AC.  The last time I did this, I used a discrete driver, see below.

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Mind, there is of course no such thing as a controller, just add external transistors, to pull off that last one.  Like, even given the analog experience I have, I would consider that more of a last resort.  Mainly / mostly / worstly because, making your own, the output slew rate, and feed-forward of internal switching noise, are not so well controlled, making it an EMI wildcard.  And it needs to be proven out over temperature, and it still takes more parts, more idle power consumption (and you need a +/-15V converter, not just a charge pump -- well, maybe, but either way it's not going to be integrated in a handy MAX232, eh?), etc.  Which is all testing I know how to do, and can do right here for that matter, and, YMMV of course, but needless to say it's going to be way more work than just... like... at that point, not even fuckin' using RS-232 anymore, right? :-DD

I needed an RS-232 level shifter some time ago to convert from a USB dongle to true RS-232 levels but since the signal was not inverted, no IC would work.  I could have added another inverter, but instead made a discrete transistor design with current source outputs and a parallel termination.  The compliance voltage limited the output voltage.  The level shifter was basically a TTL input stage driving a x1 current mirror, with another x2 current mirror pulling down, so not very power efficient.

It worked *great*, with better than textbook RS-232 waveforms.  It would have been a small step to add 100s of volts of overvoltage protection.

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Which is of course one among many non-answer answers.  Others include: change the physical interface (don't use DE-9 or whatever!); stop using RS-232 (who even uses that anymore, right? Right?...); convince the customer that their interface(s) are dumb and need to change instead; etc..  (Obviously, contingent on how feasible any of these actually are.)

At least avoid using the same connector for RS-232 and other things.
 

Offline AndyC_772

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What's the operating temperature range of this device? A PTC is fine if it normally runs relatively cool, but the trip current is a function of temperature which means they're not suitable if your equipment is designed to operate in a hot environment.


Offline T3sl4co1l

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What's the operating temperature range of this device? A PTC is fine if it normally runs relatively cool, but the trip current is a function of temperature which means they're not suitable if your equipment is designed to operate in a hot environment.

This is fortunately one application where trip current is almost irrelevant; normal intended signal current is fractional mA and maximum intended signal current is maybe 10 or 20.  A 50mA PTC fuse, just below rated temperature, might open at 20mA, and thus have no disruption on normal signal flow.  For that matter even if it opens (say, R ~ 100*R25), given the short distance, and assuming baud rate is not bleeding-edge, it probably keeps working and no one's the wiser!

Tim
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Offline AndyC_772

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I guess it depends how you define a 'hot' environment. I design sensors that are designed to survive being bolted to a gearbox running at 150C+, so PTC devices just aren't an option.

Offline PCB.Wiz

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A LED current driver like NSI50010YT1G limits to ~10mA up to 50V, whilst dropping about 500mV at 5mA
Two of those in series, with two 14V series zeners, will limit the intrusion to 10mA/15V worst case, and be ok to +/- 65V

I recently took some LED bulbs apart to diagnose why they are failing and found those little LED ballasts.  The datasheets say they shut down at high temperature, so could be an improvement over depletion mode MOSFETs.  One LED ballast could be used inside of a diode bridge with only one more diode drop, although this applies to any DC solution.
The Onsemi part is based on a JFET, very simple, with no thermal shutdown, just a slight negative temperature coefficient

I also found another supplier of constant current regulator diodes, that look quite nice.
https://diotec.com/en/productlist/C.html

Their CL05M6F includes a spice model, which has JFET/Reverse parallel diode/5pF

This is the transfer symmetry - the JFET works both ways, and RDS drops slightly for small negative voltages, as  that adds to VGS.
A series pair can drive +/- 4.5mA with appx 1.5V drop, fault current is 5.66mA, up to 190V fault levels.

Diotec CL05M6F:
+1mA is 194mV -1mA is 177mV   Average origin slope ~ 185 ohms
+2mA is 406mV, -2mA is -300mV
+3mA is 658mV  -3mA is -348mV
+4mA is 927mV -4mA is -400mV
+4.5mA is 1.10V -4.5mA is 408mV
+5.66mA is +100V   -5.66mA is -394mV (70 ohms)
Current zone is 100V delta for 54.25uA change ~ 1.84MegOhms
dT of 25'C is 200uA change in Ireg (3.5%)

« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 09:11:18 pm by PCB.Wiz »
 

Offline niccoppoTopic starter

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I have found this PTC thermistor from TDK: B59623A0090A062 --> https://product.tdk.com/en/search/protection/current/ptc-thermistor/info?part_no=B59623A0090A062
Could it be a good candidate?
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Yes, that will be fine.

I might choose a 100R myself, and, the Rhot/R25 ratio is plenty high enough for this.

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline PCB.Wiz

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I have found this PTC thermistor from TDK: B59623A0090A062 --> https://product.tdk.com/en/search/protection/current/ptc-thermistor/info?part_no=B59623A0090A062
Could it be a good candidate?
The  A622 and A623 could both be worth testing. You will need decent sized zeners to clamp the voltage, while these act.
What baud rate and operating load does the system work at ?
 

Offline niccoppoTopic starter

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The baud rate is between 2400 and 115200 depending on the device connected. The data communication does not last more than 1.5 minutes (mainly 30 seconds). Communication happens between 10 and 20 times a day.
 


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