Author Topic: K178LK1 soviet logic gate  (Read 2872 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline sahko123Topic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 328
  • Country: ie
K178LK1 soviet logic gate
« on: April 24, 2023, 11:39:12 pm »
I'm repairing an old 1979 nixie tube calculator from the ussr and as part of that I want to RE the schematics to some extent. I have datasheets for all the IC's but im confused about one in particular. The logic configuration says 2AND-2OR/2AND-2OR-NOT but im not exactly sure how its configure because of the diagram below. My assumption atm is that is two 2 input AND gates going into a 2 input OR gate. But the IEC based diagram is kind of confusing because it implies a 4 input and gate followed by a buffer. Can anyone confirm how the inputs are actually configured?
Asking for a friend
 

Offline coppercone2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13719
  • Country: us
  • √Y√... 📎
Re: K178LK1 soviet logic gate
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2023, 01:51:18 am »
I heard someone I know had trouble passing signals through it, the 'papers?' pin kept going high every time. (small carbon contact in the middle of the underside of the package)
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12495
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: K178LK1 soviet logic gate
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2023, 02:25:37 am »
The function of each element is this: y2 = (x1 & x2) | (x3 & x4); y1 = ~y2; EDIT: typo is corrected, thanks dobsonr741.

I think the symbol should have horizontal divider and "&" sign for the second half. But this is the way it is drawn in all the documents.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 02:39:00 am by ataradov »
Alex
 

Offline dobsonr741

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 978
  • Country: us
Re: K178LK1 soviet logic gate
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2023, 02:37:52 am »
Best original specs I found: http://electro-tehnyk.narod.ru/docs/Datasheet/K172.pdf

Small typo in ataradov’s formula - should read: y2 = (x1 & x2) | (x3 & x4)
 

Offline DBecker

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 328
  • Country: us
Re: K178LK1 soviet logic gate
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2023, 04:03:20 am »
I heard someone I know had trouble passing signals through it, the 'papers?' pin kept going high every time. (small carbon contact in the middle of the underside of the package)

Is there a bias contact on the package itself?  Is there a standard bias voltage, or does it vary based on long-lost per-batch documentation?

My understanding is that soviet chips were about 9 years behind western ones.  They were a mixture of copied masks, hand retouched and adjusted for the local fabs, and original soviet layouts.  The latter were often basic RTL or TTL logic gates , fabbed as a common layout that was customized in the final metal layer.

RTL and TTL don't typically use a substrate bias voltage.  A bias is typically need with NMOS and CMOS.  Starting in the mid-1970s that bias was generated by an on-chip charge pump, saving a pin or two at the ever-decreasing expense of a little area and tighter process control.
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12495
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: K178LK1 soviet logic gate
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2023, 04:32:27 am »
K178 is a PMOS series, but I don't think it had active biasing.

Bigger devices, like CPUs did have internal bias circuitry and the bias voltage was measurable outside of the device because they were often bonded to a metal heatsink (?), which often did not get covered well by the epoxy molding. And it would also be available on the sides of the package if you remove a bit of plastic.

That bias voltage was a great way to diagnose the devices on complicated boards. All you had to do is power on the board and go over all the ICs measuring the voltage.
Alex
 
The following users thanked this post: sahko123

Offline Vovk_Z

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1585
  • Country: ua
Re: K178LK1 soviet logic gate
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2023, 12:27:12 pm »
I edited a picture of its logic. As I undestand, it should be as here:
 
The following users thanked this post: wraper, sahko123

Offline dobsonr741

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 978
  • Country: us
Re: K178LK1 soviet logic gate
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2023, 01:57:34 pm »
A little backgrounder on and-or-invert: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AND-OR-invert
 

Offline Njk

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 477
  • Country: ru
Re: K178LK1 soviet logic gate
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2023, 02:11:21 pm »
I edited a picture of its logic. As I undestand, it should be as here:

I think that's the best answer to the original question.
For those interested in the vintage stuff, abundant sovietology information is available at http://www.155la3.ru

For that particular part: http://www.155la3.ru/datafiles/k172_k178_pasp.pdf

Notice, the factory data sheet does not provide the function drawing, only textual description of the logic. So the latter takes precedence in case of contradiction, I presume. As for the drawing, it's typical product of the kibbutz-style society (that's what they're trying to re-build now). Digital electronics was a new technology back then and not every drawing lady in the committee was understanding what's that all about. BTW, Russians are not alone in that regard...


« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 02:19:41 pm by Njk »
 
The following users thanked this post: sahko123


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf

 

- - -
-->