Improved performance 5V Arduino Nano/Mega compatible

[ledtester]

WCH makes devices which operate at 5V with "GPIO synchronous supply voltage", e.g. the CH32F103* series:

http://www.wch-ic.com/products/CH32F103.html

and also have a look at the CH32V003* which was featured recently in EEVblog 1524:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1524-the-10-cent-risc-v-processor-ch32v003/

The CH32V003 datasheet:

http://www.wch-ic.com/products/CH32V003.html

A quick perusal seems to indicate that the GPIO pins operate at the supply voltage.

[coromonadalix]

The F4U6  or F4P6   seems pretty good ?

[Messtechniker]

PS I'd go with a USB connector that is the most robust (so Type B as used on the UNO) or an option for this on the pcb.

I would vote for the same. i.e. use the USB connector type with the higher number of mating cycles.

[DC1MC]

I too would need a more powerful "uino" variant   5vdc i/o tolerant,  yeah   3.3v interfaces / levels shifter exists   .... chice is made   thks  op

but i need simpler "direct" interfacing

pricing   i would go as far at 15-20$ cad  / single board if the design is solid and practical

I have a mega, never played lot with it compared to 32u4 variants, or uno  .....  even one with an real db9 serial port was fun (yeah they still exists loll)


About time the use of an usb-c  plug, and a rock solid one will be good, others are too easy to rip off the pcb
a good reset circutry  once programmed,   and the famous pin 13 led ....... if you get the idea,  just put a way to recover the pin if we need it   lolll    say a smt jumper

Any of the MCUs that you'd like to have ?

[DC1MC]

PS I'd go with a USB connector that is the most robust (so Type B as used on the UNO) or an option for this on the pcb.

I would vote for the same. i.e. use the USB connector type with the higher number of mating cycles.

The Wikipedia says the following:

"Standard USB has a minimum rated lifetime of 1,500 cycles of insertion and removal, the mini-USB receptacle increases this to 5,000 cycles, and the newer Micro-USB and USB-C receptacles are both designed for a minimum rated lifetime of 10,000 cycles of insertion and removal."

So it may be that most suitable for you will be the Nanoton+, the C connector has a really massive mating cycles and is bidirectional. But I will keep the mini for the Nano look-alike for existing projects compatibility reasons.

GENERAL question: For Nanonton+ do you thing is a good idea to make it 25 or 50mil wider, I'm trying to keep the original Nano width, but the 64pin MCU is a bit wider, it will make the board routing easier, but sticking it in a perf board will be hindered, usually they're pretty narow ?

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 

[coromonadalix]

of for the usb connector, ive seen  some pcb pads for the "B"  while you use anonther usb socket ? if you dont like it remove it ?  and use the pads

Factor size is indeed a problem, but if made larger it will fit other rows of joined breadboards, while not fitting on the same breadboard or enlarged enough just to leave 1 row of pins each side ??

[pcprogrammer]

GENERAL question: For Nanonton+ do you thing is a good idea to make it 25 or 50mil wider, I'm trying to keep the original Nano width, but the 64pin MCU is a bit wider, it will make the board routing easier, but sticking it in a perf board will be hindered, usually they're pretty narow ?

Since it will have more pins then the nano, I think it is best to keep it on a 100mil boundary for the interface pins. This way it can still be used with prototype boards and breadboards. For the latter there should at leas be room on either side to insert a wire into the breadboard.

On a prototype board there is room in the holes to mount the headers at an angle, but this only helps if the Nanoton+ comes without pre soldered headers.

P.S. I see you using Nanoton+ and Nanonton+. I guess a typo?

of for the usb connector, ive seen  some pcb pads for the "B"  while you use anonther usb socket ? if you dont like it remove it ?  and use the pads

That is a good idea, because sometimes it is useful to have a header (solderd on the pads) for direct placing within a computer case and make use of the computers internal USB headers.

[coromonadalix]

Usb ports    yeah  or even  adding 4x header pins who could fit the usb standard ? +5vdc  d+ d- ground,  but an unpopulated usb B pads could be perfect  loll


"bigduino" would have been fine  loll

[djsb]

0.1 inch pin row spacing multiples would be best. What is the priority? Strict Nano form factor, or will it fit into a breadboard? Depends on if you want to move easily from a breadboard to an adaptor board or if you can make a custom PCB for the non standard width. Could you make it the standard Arduino Nano width but with castellated pins so that theses flexypins can be used

https://hackaday.com/2022/03/07/flexypins-might-help-with-those-pesky-castellated-modules/

[DC1MC]

The Nanonton (Nano loo-alike) will be fully size/pins/connector compatible, a drop-in replacement, the Nanonton+ (the new design with USB-C connector) will be 100mil wider to still fit in the breadboard, I 'll have to see if we can mix some C and B pads together on it to be able to solder one or the other, if not at least some non-connector footprint pads.

The 6pin heade will get the SWD port signals, and it could be used for blanco and for people that hate bootloaders  , even if I understood correctly the ICP should be possible with just BootROM and the USB. The SWD will be useful for debugging.

No votes/opinions for the MCUs at all  , don't make me choose, we/I may regret later, vote now !!!

[djsb]

Please give us all time to read the datasheets properly. Thanks.

[DC1MC]

Please give us all time to read the datasheets properly. Thanks.

Sure, by all mean take your time and read the datasheets, at the time of the posting I've seen that they were only three downloads of the excel with the candidates, but I guess three is better than none .

Thanks and cheers,
DC1MC

[pcprogrammer]

I vote for the M471 or the M4521 since they seem to be pin compatible it does not matter that much which of the two.

There is also the issue of the Arduino framework that needs to be looked at. I presume a lot of the work for the STM32 based MCU's could be reused to make it work. I myself won't use it for projects due to being more of a bare metal guy, and also won't be using a lot of them either. Just a hobbyist with some projects I would say

[ledtester]

I am unable to open the zip file in the first post.

On my Mac (running Big Sur) it reports that it is an unsupported format.

My Chromebook says simply "Could not open NanotonProductSelection.zip".


Update: Just thought of this... is the .zip file really an .xls file?

Update 2: Ok, I uploaded the .xls as a Google sheet:

(Nanoton Product Selection Guide)

[pcprogrammer]

Change .zip to .ods, worked for me on linux. Opened with libreoffice Calc

[djsb]

The M471 looks quite feature rich with the software test library (not sure exactly how that helps, but it sounds good). The one with the 0.5mm pin pitch might help with routing (not sure, as I've never had to route such small parts on a PCB).

[coromonadalix]

I vote for the M471 or the M4521 since they seem to be pin compatible it does not matter that much which of the two.

There is also the issue of the Arduino framework that needs to be looked at. I presume a lot of the work for the STM32 based MCU's could be reused to make it work. I myself won't use it for projects due to being more of a bare metal guy, and also won't be using a lot of them either. Just a hobbyist with some projects I would say

very good  point

IDE  play an important role ...  bootloader too if needed to be flashed too ?? thats why you had an second mcu on the arduino's,  it could help flash the main mcu ??

how to start the board from scratch ...

for the form factor  you could go as an  "old uno" footprint / size   if you get an mcu with all the gpio's, the design  can be bigger ... do you require a reset button ??

before ordering some pcb, you could output an 3d view  to get an idea  ??

EDIT     dont use castellation, it was a nightmare at my job,  pcb quality was bad, they shorted themselves out

standard headers pinout spacing is ok,  if someone need them,  just add them / solder them

[DC1MC]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENTS:

To respond to a concern privately expressed: no, I'm not sponsored or affiliated with Nuvoton in any way, shape, or form, I'm not that smart for it  , this project is a personal project, not any kind PR or marketing campaign (also no prizes for the winner but I will make sure that contributors will be offered a board of their choice at transport costs, DE free), but I welcome such a sponsorship of the project  .

Now it seems that for Nanoton+ the 471 is leading the race with 5421 willing to take its place. It can even do crystal-less USB device, now, who will take the Nanoton trophy, another 5421 or the venerable 029, stay tuned  !!!
I understand that castellation is not really loved, so it won't be in Ver. 1.0, object now or never !!!
The BOM competition is starting to get hot, looking for 32768 crystals that you have experience with and can recommend. Also a proper 5V USB to 3V3 regulator of at least 1.2A.

MANY THANKS TO ALL THAT OFFERED INSIGHT AND SUPPORT !!!!

 Cheers,
 DC1MC

[pcprogrammer]

IDE  play an important role ...  bootloader too if needed to be flashed too ?? thats why you had an second mcu on the arduino's,  it could help flash the main mcu ??

how to start the board from scratch ...

With SWD exposed on header pins there is no real need for a second MCU. ST-link v2 clones are still not to expensive and will most likely work with these MCU's too.

It might also be that the M471 or M4521 has DFU ability.

For Arduino framework compatibility I suppose a proper bootloader needs to be setup. Should not be that big of a problem.

About the regulator, what I have seen used a lot is the AMS1117 3.3V, but the max current is 1A. http://www.advanced-monolithic.com/pdf/ds1117.pdf
Is the additional 200mA a real need?

Edit: noticed that I forgot to add additional before the 200mA 

[DC1MC]

GENERAL:

Quick question: where should we put the two serial blinky LEDs on Nanoton, on some separate I/O pins, or remove them all, there is no USB-Serial converter anymore ?
The power LED stays I guess, the controllable LED for the most important sketch ever should be on separate I/O, or on an outside routed one, then we'll the known pin D13/SCK issue, is anyone's project depending on this LED being outside routed ?
Also what LEDs (beside power) want to have on the Nanoton+ ?

Cheers,
DC1MC

[djsb]

Two blinky LED's are essential in my opinion to prove that the programming has worked. Maybe just one R G B could be provided (NOT a fancy addressable type), with each of the 3 separate LED's being on their own pins. Could a couple of momentary switches be squeezed in as well?

[pcprogrammer]

A single led to allow a blinky sketch is enough I would say. A RGB led is just fancy extra, but if the board size and free pins allow for it why not, but having as much as possible pins routed to the outside is preferable, at least for the + version.

One thing tho consider is the boot mode selection. The bluepill way is a bit bulky to my taste. Rather see some small buttons for it. But it depends on the MCU and how it wants it of course.

Edit: I'm looking in the manuals about the boot mode, and it looks different to what I'm used to with the STM32 MCU's. Have to study it a bit more to understand what a bare chip brings.

Edit2: The reference manual provides the needed information. Chapter 6.4 about the flash memory controller shows that it has either 128KB or 64KB of flash for the application program, an additional 4KB for a boot loader and a configuration part. It looks like there are no external select pins as on the STM32 MCU's
https://www.nuvoton.com/export/resource-files/TRM_M471M_M471R1_M471S_Series_EN_Rev1.00.pdf

[DC1MC]

OK then, I'll route the LEDs on spare (not exported) I/O and try to do some blinkerei in the boot-loader to give a visual cue about loading, otherwise the LEDs will be free for use. Also on all the boards I will NOT route any led on the connector signals to not screw up the signaling
On Nanoton+ I will try besides the power LED to have an RGB led, the control pins will most likely PWM capable, so one could do a RainbowLED (TM) 
Also on Nanoton+, another switch besides the RST should be OK, or yet another one may prove useful ?

 Cheers,
 DC1MC

[DC1MC]

So here we go, to keep it consistent M471SE6AE has won on BOTH categories, I was thinking the maybe on the Nano compatible one to use a 48pin package but it doesn't make sense, will get better software support and even qty. discounts for using the same MCU that seem to have a drop-in replacement as well. Sorry for the hand solderers without Amscope 

Please re-read the first post, I've edited it to reflect the current situation.

Now accepting suggestions of the pinout (both external and LED/buttons), a simple list is enough, an (editable) schematic will be lovely. Please try to keep Nanoton+ as compatible as possible to Nanonton just with extra pins (if possible and make sense, if not, go wild .

 Cheers,
 DC1MC

[pcprogrammer]

Did you look into the SWD programming?

For what I found Nuvoton offers some tools on github (https://github.com/OpenNuvoton/Nuvoton_Tools) and mention openOCD, but the firmware for the interfaces seems to be closed source, and the NU-LINK2-PRO they point to is bloody expensive. Have not checked if there are cheaper options available.

Pre loaded boards make it usable with Arduino framework and maybe usable for partial bare metal, but for those who do like full bare metal it would be nice if reusing ST-Link devices was possible.