Author Topic: Largest Milled PCB yet?  (Read 5570 times)

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Offline JanTheVanTopic starter

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Largest Milled PCB yet?
« on: January 04, 2019, 07:13:53 pm »
Well it feels like it could be, given the amount of time it has taken me!

My ears are ringing, but the result, I think, has come out pretty well! Its not been without pain though, oh no! Wrong feed rates, bad quality cutters, snapping milling bits and the one that almost pushed me over the edge, and scrapped the 2nd attempt, WINDOW AUTOMATIC UPDATE! Yep, 3 hours in to the job, all looking good, windows decided to do an update and shut the PC down! That took a large glass of wine to get over.

All in all it took about 10 hours to mill and drill, about 3 days to get the process sorted from start to finish, so pretty good, the size of the board is 8" X 12" and its double sided. I'll follow up here with a detailed how-to for people that want to give it a go themselves, until then, I've attached a few pictures of my board. Enjoy!

Scott
 

Offline xyrtek

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2019, 07:30:37 pm »
Whatever it is you are doing you are doing it right, those look great, well done!!!
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2019, 08:08:54 pm »
Awsome, worth framing and hanging on the wall !  :D
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Offline soldar

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2019, 08:23:19 pm »
Two words: spec tacular!
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Offline coppercone2

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2019, 10:21:55 pm »
wow that is slow. if i had to do that i would work on my etch tank again.

it kind of sounds not worth it given the noise.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2019, 10:27:47 pm »
While the results do indeed look great, I have to wonder if 10 hours of milling and drilling is worth it. I like the idea of CNC drilling but the etching part could be done in 20-30 minutes using photo resist or toner transfer. That board is similar in size to the largest ones I've etched at home and the result was similar although your drilling is obviously neater.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2019, 10:28:29 pm »
Well done! However, this is pure masochism and throwing money out of the window, IMO. Photolithography + etching it would have been much faster and cheaper (never mind the dangerous dust!), then just use the CNC to drill the holes.

And are you really running your CNC from a general purpose Windows machine (since auto updates are enabled)?! You are really begging for pain there.
 
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2019, 02:18:00 am »
Configure the network interface to a metered connection to stop Windows from downloading updates until you do it manually.
 
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2019, 02:40:40 am »
Excellent work on a huge slab of board :-+

Love to have some more info on bits used, feeds and speeds if you could  :)
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Offline coppercone2

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2019, 11:00:14 am »
what machine did that/
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2019, 10:39:32 pm »
Quote
Well done! However, this is pure masochism and throwing money out of the window, IMO. Photolithography + etching it would have been much faster and cheaper (never mind the dangerous dust!), then just use the CNC to drill the holes.

If you are gonna drill the holes with CNC, you should generally do that first, then apply the etch resist, so's you can line the resist to the holes. It's a lot more anxiety the other way round.
 

Online voltsandjolts

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2019, 10:54:26 pm »
Is it actually worth owning and running a PCB mill in these days of cheap proto PCBs?
According to pcbshopper.com, JLCPCB could make 10 of these double sided 200x300mm boards delivered to UK for GBP71 in 6 days.
With real vias. And solder mask. And silkscreen.
 :-//
 
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2019, 11:25:57 pm »
Is it actually worth owning and running a PCB mill in these days of cheap proto PCBs?
According to pcbshopper.com, JLCPCB could make 10 of these double sided 200x300mm boards delivered to UK for GBP71 in 6 days.
With real vias. And solder mask. And silkscreen.
 :-//

It is a prototyping 'option' a more typical board would be under maybe an hour turnaround. Apart from the Vias needing more manual work, silkscreen and solder masks do little for a hand assembled prototype board. Make it and decide you need to add a few more bits or tweak a trace and do it again within an hour.

By then you have saved time (commercially this can be lots of $$) and got the project done so the designer and 'team' in some cases can move on when it works instead of maybe juggling several projects waiting for a board. When you have the design right then you can send it off to whoever you like.

Mine gets less use now for PCB's due to cheaper small commercial lot availability and my timeline isn't an issue for most jobs. It was getting more use in timber or plastics for my other toys prior to getting a LASER and a few 3D printers.

But they still have a place IMO.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2019, 12:33:40 am »
I don't etch boards at home very often, but it's still a useful ability to have. If I need a one-off prototype I can go from CAD to a finished ready to assemble PCB in under an hour including all the setup and cleanup, even expedited processing and shipping it's gonna be several days wait to send it out, and a lot more expensive.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2019, 02:04:24 am »
Its not been without pain though, oh no! Wrong feed rates, bad quality cutters, snapping milling bits and the one that almost pushed me over the edge, and scrapped the 2nd attempt, WINDOW AUTOMATIC UPDATE! Yep, 3 hours in to the job, all looking good, windows decided to do an update and shut the PC down! That took a large glass of wine to get over.
pcb mill is a one time process, keep or trash... i've built a prototype before (its been 2 years now from the youtube date tag, its still under "alpha test" duh) to etch resist ink. the "mill" bit is just a pogo pin, anything wrong (usually missed steps) i can right away see and cancel process, board can still be reused all i have to do is add resist ink to the incorrect etched area and reprint, the same machine will also be used for drilling, just change bit, its a "Bethan" machine (BEtter THan hANd)...



the latest build is 10 x 20 cm PCB, it took 2-3 hours or so iirc due to some broken 3d printed part, i have to reprint 3-4 times (before realizing something broken) on the same board before getting the right result, if not because of that, i think 1 hour most is all it takes including copper ething and correcting (manual knife cutting) the shorted traces. for double sided, i use special method for alignment, no need overblown excess area (where the pcb side area will cut off and trashed). ymmv.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 02:29:40 am by Mechatrommer »
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Offline cdev

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2019, 03:12:29 am »
WOW, thats just spectacular. I hope you are planning to protect it well under a good conformal coating
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2019, 05:42:45 am »
I used to trust Windows Update completely and for years it was a very useful service. Starting when they started pushing Win10 though it went downhill real fast and became in my mind a threat more serious than the threats it was meant to prevent. With Win10 consumer versions this is even worse and the automatic updates that happen without user consent are completely unacceptable. I turned off all updates ~3 years ago and everything has worked so much more smoothly. A computer should never *ever* reboot without my express permission.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2019, 01:30:12 pm »
I used to trust Windows Update completely and for years it was a very useful service. Starting when they started pushing Win10 though it went downhill real fast and became in my mind a threat more serious than the threats it was meant to prevent. With Win10 consumer versions this is even worse and the automatic updates that happen without user consent are completely unacceptable. I turned off all updates ~3 years ago and everything has worked so much more smoothly. A computer should never *ever* reboot without my express permission.

It has only gotten worse despite Microsoft's lying assurances since it became a problem.  So far I have only needed to set the network configuration to "metered" to prevent inopportune updates and reboots.

I become very unhappy the first time a weeks worth of possessing time was lost.  Are people expected to even do work on PCs anymore?  I hope every person at Microsoft who thought this was a good idea gets lynched.
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2019, 01:47:28 pm »
Much as they a PITA at times the typical 3D printer choice of Micro SD cards loaded with G Code beats having a PC hooked up to the machines especially when you might have one running for 10-20 hours on a job.

Time for CNC router controllers to go the same way add a bit more brain and a simple interface for jogging etc. and lose the PC from being tethered as a data storage device?
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Offline janoc

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2019, 01:58:41 pm »
Much as they a PITA at times the typical 3D printer choice of Micro SD cards loaded with G Code beats having a PC hooked up to the machines especially when you might have one running for 10-20 hours on a job.

Time for CNC router controllers to go the same way add a bit more brain and a simple interface for jogging etc. and lose the PC from being tethered as a data storage device?

A better solution for 3D printers is stuff like Octoprint or Astrobox - Raspberry Pi loaded with the front-end software, so that you can access, monitor and control the machine remotely. But there the Pi isn't driving the stepper motors, only feeding the G code to the integrated controller (often some Arduino-like board). Mostly saves running around with the SD cards and saves you from having to sit next to the machine babysitting it while it works because it supports cameras - so you can watch it from elsewhere in the house.

And for cheap CNCs where there is often only a "dumb" controller that needs pulses for the steppers (often using parallel port!), there is e.g. Linux CNC or Mach 3 - put it on a small dedicated Linux computer and problem solved. Way more stable than relying on your Windows PC/laptop to keep going for many hours straight.

Of course, if you have money (and aren't afraid to mess with the wiring), there are dedicated CNC controllers too.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 02:00:45 pm by janoc »
 
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2019, 07:05:27 pm »
Adding a PI is not a better solution to a 3D printer it does nothing to useful to the G code in terms of the print itself and is not required by the printer to operate. The apps watchdog like functions are of some use but lack in what I want for enclosure control so I will be going somewhere different for mine. A $30 wifi camera looks after my three printers if I want to take a look and at this stage I will be staying with cards for data. My previous post was background to what can be done without attached PC's or additional micros with simple boards.

Adding this sort of functionality to the cheaper or home brew CNC routers needs to take some leads from the 3D printer manufacturers. There is a few forks of Marlin for linking RAMPS style boards in existence but I haven't looked into them much but as far as I am aware they still use a PC in the loop, this is the link that needs severing. PC's are as you point out not needed nor is even a LINUX board what is needed is a simple G code interpreter with some setup controls and interface and the processing needed is no more complex than 3D printers.

My bigger router which I got secondhand with a PlanetCNC board already fitted is getting it's own dedicated mini PC to drive its controller with Windoze auto updating as removed as possible  :horse:

The industrial end of the market is another whole can of worms and getting well off topic.
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Offline janoc

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2019, 09:35:06 pm »
Adding a PI is not a better solution to a 3D printer it does nothing to useful to the G code in terms of the print itself and is not required by the printer to operate. The apps watchdog like functions are of some use but lack in what I want for enclosure control so I will be going somewhere different for mine. A $30 wifi camera looks after my three printers if I want to take a look and at this stage I will be staying with cards for data. My previous post was background to what can be done without attached PC's or additional micros with simple boards.

And what "useful things with the G-code" do you want the 3D printer controller to do? (apropos, Octoprint can actually slice models for printing but doing that on a Pi is quite a masochism).

The idea of Octoprint and similar is to add convenience to the machine, nothing else. If your machine has such functionality built-in, then you really don't need it (some printers actually do already) but many don't. My Mendel90 can work from an SD card and can have an LCD + encoder/button connected to it (it doesn't come with one - it was a kit printer) but I still much prefer being able to upload the ready to go G code from my "CAD" PC to the machine over the network instead of messing with cards and then the limited UI offered by the printer.

If you don't find that useful, fine but I think a lot of 3D printer users will disagree with you there.


Adding this sort of functionality to the cheaper or home brew CNC routers needs to take some leads from the 3D printer manufacturers. There is a few forks of Marlin for linking RAMPS style boards in existence but I haven't looked into them much but as far as I am aware they still use a PC in the loop, this is the link that needs severing. PC's are as you point out not needed nor is even a LINUX board what is needed is a simple G code interpreter with some setup controls and interface and the processing needed is no more complex than 3D printers.

Actually Marlin and RAMPS are a fairly terrible solution (even ignoring the design and manufacturing problems some of these boards are notorious for). Those boards are being pushed to their limits by the 3D printers already because the 8bit ATMegas on these are not exactly speed demons when it comes to the math necessary for calculating the movements. There are plenty of printers on the market which "outrun" their controllers - are capable of higher printing speeds than what the poor Arduino-compatible RAMPS board there can computationally handle.

I don't see something like RAMPS being able to drive some serious motors you would find on a CNC neither, the typical "Stepstick" style drivers stuck in female pin headers these boards use simply wouldn't be able to handle the currents. Some poorly designed boards struggle even with the common NEMA 17s already, losing steps or going into overtemp shutdown on the drivers - making you lose your print in the process. Also if your CNC happens to actually use servomotors with encoders, you are out of luck, because most boards targeting 3D printers don't have any support for them. Though I believe there is at least a variant of Marlin (or perhaps GRBL) firmware that allows closed loop control if you want to make your own board.

There are more modern and better boards around - e.g. Smoothieboard (some list here: http://3daddict.com/32-bit-3d-printer-board-comparison/ ) but those generally solve only the math slowness part by using a beefier MCU (typically some ARM), not the other issues. Those don't matter on a 3D printer but may be a problem on a CNC mill.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 09:44:46 pm by janoc »
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2019, 10:28:31 pm »
Configure the network interface to a metered connection to stop Windows from downloading updates until you do it manually.

Even better, flip the "don't update for a month" switch...
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2019, 10:49:14 pm »
Actually Marlin and RAMPS are a fairly terrible solution (even ignoring the design and manufacturing problems some of these boards are notorious for). Those boards are being pushed to their limits by the 3D printers already because the 8bit ATMegas on these are not exactly speed demons when it comes to the math necessary for calculating the movements. There are plenty of printers on the market which "outrun" their controllers - are capable of higher printing speeds than what the poor Arduino-compatible RAMPS board there can computationally handle.

I don't see something like RAMPS being able to drive some serious motors you would find on a CNC neither, the typical "Stepstick" style drivers stuck in female pin headers these boards use simply wouldn't be able to handle the currents. Some poorly designed boards struggle even with the common NEMA 17s already, losing steps or going into overtemp shutdown on the drivers - making you lose your print in the process. Also if your CNC happens to actually use servomotors with encoders, you are out of luck, because most boards targeting 3D printers don't have any support for them. Though I believe there is at least a variant of Marlin (or perhaps GRBL) firmware that allows closed loop control if you want to make your own board.

There are more modern and better boards around - e.g. Smoothieboard (some list here: http://3daddict.com/32-bit-3d-printer-board-comparison/ ) but those generally solve only the math slowness part by using a beefier MCU (typically some ARM), not the other issues. Those don't matter on a 3D printer but may be a problem on a CNC mill.

Leaving Octoprint/PI alone as it is off topic and will drag this thread further away from the OP's Post. It deserves it's own thread.

We have been seeing the first 32 Bit boards getting around more and more over the last year or so, using 8 bit as some sort of a argument or point is what exactly? 8 bit apart from the bottom end of the market will be gone fairly soon IMO.

Do not take the words I wrote and try to make them more than they were. I made an OBSERVATION that there were some forks of Marlin to Ramps boards that I was aware of in passing. I didn't suggest them as a solution just that people had done some work on it as I own a Laser Cutter in my tools I was interested in options when I first got it.

Marlin is a fairly well developed and constantly evolving standalone interface to a CNC machine in the majority of cases it is 3D printers. There is no reason I can think of it couldn't be forked for example to a non ramps cnc router board in particular if done from scratch.

At the Hobby end sizes (lets just pick 3020 and smaller) what is needed is a some modification toward a 3D printer standalone solution. Local Data storage, G Code interpretation, Interface for jogging, setup etc. You are making an assumption that the CNC board would use bottom end Chinese step stick drivers like the 5+ year old RAMPS boards to do this would be a really poor choice given what hardware is already in use and available now.

So be it a Marlin, GRBL, Repetier or whatever firmware as a starting point time to lose the PC.

When you leave the 3020 there is currently a large jump overall in requirements and purchase price and you are into the realms of Mach3&4 PlanetCNC etc. so likewise best left alone for another thread.
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Largest Milled PCB yet?
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2019, 12:34:26 am »
there is no use of super power mcu if the mechanic cannot handle the speed. once i speeded up my knock off prusa (the china master copy from where i learnt to build another machines at fraction of cost), but the result is poor print mainly due to mechanical reason iirc, so i slow it down. the atmega mcu has more time waiting than compute, i dont see any fault or jittery motion even on fast speed setting that can be narrowed down to mcu bottlenecking, i got a good GUI respond as well, no pause in motion. imho, faster mcu is mostly gimmick on better colorful GUI etc, but i maybe wrong, anyway my prusa works fine in term of mcu processing. the driver stucked in female header is not a good excuse to dismiss OSHW reprap/marlin/ramps as the header is meant to put the right driver on (extendible and configurable) if user see not enough current or missed steps, user should upgrade to bigger version motor driver and the motor, thats the idea instead of buying another new machine that costs another 3-10X. imho as a person who built some proto machines from scratches. i believe we can buy that cheap arduino + ramps shield board and then put another appropriate driver, motor and gearing system to lift a tanker.

the earlier proto-bethan i showed is pretty much a standard OSHW reprap 3d printer build (arduino mega + populated ramps shield, except with different mechanism of and the short Z height and head assembly from 3d printed parts), no need to fiddle with marlin FW, just copy to mcu as is, use FlatCAM OSS to translate gerber to gcode and good to go. i only need to hack GCode for manual drilling process, ie the head will go to drill position (translated from NC Drill file), and then i will correct pcb position and hit enter (encoder button) and head will start drilling. alot better than looking at PC screen to find which hole position and then drill with freehand. 0.5 - 0.8mm drill bit and freehand dont work together nicely, i killed many bits before, before even successfully punching a hole.

there is one word for faster mcu (even OSHW version), its "ex pensive". and close feedback loop motor system? few words... more more expensive than the expensive. a single stepper motor system including the close loop control board can cost few times than my prusa. let alone building complete system using 3 or 4 of that. imho CNC machine only suitable if people want to get serious in substrative CAM such as making mould, aluminium rf shield and enclosure or a some quality metallic pendant for SWMBO etc, but for scratching pcb? i dont think so. anyway a sure way to get a really working machine is go to Hitachi or Toyota factory and ask what CNC they use, buy that.
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