Author Topic: How to simulate thermal processes in LTSpice?  (Read 2873 times)

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Offline MegaVoltTopic starter

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How to simulate thermal processes in LTSpice?
« on: April 28, 2023, 03:07:41 pm »
Maybe you have seen instructions for modeling thermal processes in circuit simulators?
This is when current = power, voltage = temperature, capacity = heat capacity, etc ....
Something similar to the one shown in the figure, only in more detail and deployed.
 

Offline Conrad Hoffman

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Re: How to simulate thermal processes in LTSpice?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2023, 03:20:44 pm »
Not sure why you'd want to. Download the student edition of Quickfield- https://quickfield.com/
 
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Offline MegaVoltTopic starter

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Re: How to simulate thermal processes in LTSpice?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2023, 04:08:41 pm »
Not sure why you'd want to. Download the student edition of Quickfield- https://quickfield.com/
I would like to build a thermostat model.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: How to simulate thermal processes in LTSpice?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2023, 04:13:25 pm »
Maybe you have seen instructions for modeling thermal processes in circuit simulators?
This is when current = power, voltage = temperature, capacity = heat capacity, etc ....
Something similar to the one shown in the figure, only in more detail and deployed.

Doing this is basically the same as using an analog computer to solve differential equations. You would need to convert your physical model to dimensionless form, and then map it onto an equivalent electrical circuit. You can do it, but it requires a bit of work. To succeed, you will need to have a good understanding of the physics involved, and how to create an appropriate model.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: How to simulate thermal processes in LTSpice?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2023, 06:10:22 pm »
Not sure why you'd want to. Download the student edition of Quickfield- https://quickfield.com/
I would like to build a thermostat model.

You can use arbitrary voltage/current sources with expressions depending on other voltages/currents/parameters in your circuit, and time.
With that you should be able to simulate a thermostat.
 
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Offline iMo

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Readers discretion is advised..
 

Offline MegaVoltTopic starter

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Re: How to simulate thermal processes in LTSpice?
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2023, 09:03:11 am »
https://www.hackster.io/alainstas/ltspice-simulation-of-thermostat-with-transistors-and-ntc-4b50c1

Yes. I'm looking for a tutorial that explains well how to build such circuits.

Here's a little tutorial I found:
 

Offline iMo

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« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 09:38:48 am by iMo »
Readers discretion is advised..
 
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Offline MegaVoltTopic starter

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Re: How to simulate thermal processes in LTSpice?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2023, 09:38:54 am »
In this thread I made some experiments with simulating thermal processes with 399
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/lm399-heat-loss-within-a-vacuum/msg4394029/#msg4394029

Thank you, I will definitely look into this topic.

I'm surprised that there is no such instruction on paper :)

Here's another instruction.

P=I     Power
Q=R    thermal resistance
T=V    themperature
Ct=C   Thermal Capacity

 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: How to simulate thermal processes in LTSpice?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2023, 09:44:00 am »
Maybe you have seen instructions for modeling thermal processes in circuit simulators?
This is when current = power, voltage = temperature, capacity = heat capacity, etc ....
Something similar to the one shown in the figure, only in more detail and deployed.

Doing this is basically the same as using an analog computer to solve differential equations. You would need to convert your physical model to dimensionless form, and then map it onto an equivalent electrical circuit. You can do it, but it requires a bit of work. To succeed, you will need to have a good understanding of the physics involved, and how to create an appropriate model.

Indeed, a better description of SPICE is a nonlinear numerical integration engine; it's dimensioned for circuits (amps, volts, seconds..) but you can rename a voltage or current as any complementary unit in any other problem: velocity and acceleration in mechanics, temperature and power in thermal; etc.

So it's not an unusual practice to incorporate models in exactly this way.  You occasionally see thermal models for transistors where there's an extra output pin corresponding to its power dissipation, which you connect to an RC circuit* which models temperatures of junction, case, heatsink and etc., as the case may be.

*Thermal problems obey the heat equation, which only has real poles or fractional power solutions in the resulting transfer functions**.  We can approximate the latter as the former for some desired degree of accuracy.

**For linear materials, of course.  Nonlinear materials could exhibit thermal shock waves... but I'm not aware of any system that exhibits such.  It would have to have a negative tempco of thermal conductivity I think?  Or maybe it's more mundane, like, chemical reaction fronts can move faster than heat transfer in the material, explosives for example; but nah, that's a nonlinearity of the material's heat capacity (you could model a kinetic reaction as a one-time discontinuity in heat capacity: that is, on heating the substance, its temperature starts accelerating then suddenly rises stepwise for zero additional external heat input), nothing to do with its heat transfer.  Anyway, needless to say this is nothing you need to worry about in practice.

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
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Offline iMo

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Re: How to simulate thermal processes in LTSpice?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2023, 09:55:09 am »
In early 90ties a guy from russia or ukraine came to a CAD conference held in poland and presented a complete model of pneu/hydro/electro control of an aircraft they produced (and he said they used the model for actual design of the airplane), made in Spice (I saw it in person). In spice you may simulate almost everything provided you are able to write the transformation equations between "something" and R/L/C/I/V/time etc..
« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 10:41:04 am by iMo »
Readers discretion is advised..
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: How to simulate thermal processes in LTSpice?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2023, 03:06:42 pm »
Out on the Internet there is a group of analog computer components for LTspice.  These include the integrator and a summer, at least.

https://www.edn.com/a-virtual-analog-computer-for-your-desktop/

Attached is a Simulink model of the Mass-Spring-Damper problem which results in damped harmonic motion.  The 1/s blocks are integrators and the one that integrates velocity has an initial condition of -1.  That's where the program starts with an initial position of -1.

I have done a similar thing with the LTspice components above.  Analog computing is fun!

I also attached a photo of the Mass-Spring-Damper problem on a Comdyna GP-6.  The initial conditions and spring/damping factors are not the same as those I used with MATLAB/Simulink but the objective is the same.  The patching is overly complex because there are two different projects patched for my entertainment.  Figure about half that patching is actually required.  Those 'gain' blocks (the triangles) in the Simulink model correspond to the potentiometers in the Comdyna version.




« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 03:23:45 pm by rstofer »
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: How to simulate thermal processes in LTSpice?
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2023, 03:54:52 pm »
I won't be happy till there is a thermal inductor
 

Online mawyatt

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Re: How to simulate thermal processes in LTSpice?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2023, 04:10:21 pm »
We developed some thermal modeling with PSpice back in the late 80s, later published in EDN in 1994. This was originally done to help understand the thermal behavior of various power devices under complex waveforms, and proved useful in designing heat-sinking methods.

ttps://www.edn.com/edn-access-08-18-94-spice-runs-thermal-analysi/

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 

Offline MegaVoltTopic starter

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Re: How to simulate thermal processes in LTSpice?
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2023, 07:00:05 pm »

ttps://www.edn.com/edn-access-08-18-94-spice-runs-thermal-analysi/
Thank you!  Old EDN articles are losing pictures :(( But you provided the right keywords.
 

Online mawyatt

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Re: How to simulate thermal processes in LTSpice?
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2023, 07:38:33 pm »
Don't know how to dig up the old images of the stuff we were allowed to publish in EDN (most of our work was prohibited from publishing), we do have some paper copies of some articles but not this....sorry :-[

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 
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Offline RoGeorge

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« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 08:00:03 pm by RoGeorge »
 

Offline MegaVoltTopic starter

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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: How to simulate thermal processes in LTSpice?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2023, 12:30:21 pm »
Don't know how to dig up the old images of the stuff we were allowed to publish in EDN (most of our work was prohibited from publishing), we do have some paper copies of some articles but not this....sorry :-[

Best,

They were so concerned about copyrights that they lost all the old pics, and thus rendered useless most of their archive articles.  There are no snapshots on the Wayback Machine either.  :-\

Online coppercone2

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Re: How to simulate thermal processes in LTSpice?
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2023, 02:17:43 pm »
I won't be happy till there is a thermal inductor

Heat flowing from cold to hot without external intervention by using a “thermal inductor”
https://doi.org/10.48550/arXiv.1804.06405

Happy now?  ;D

its a start. I was expecting something with a MCU but if its just a D-I circuit thats interesting. They did have to use super conductors though
 


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