Author Topic: New LED lights reliability  (Read 14088 times)

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Offline thexenoTopic starter

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New LED lights reliability
« on: January 31, 2019, 10:05:29 am »
Hi all,

I think this is a hot topic to many.

In the last 2 years I updated some lamps in my home. I went through a pretty expensive Philips and Osram E27 LED lamps. This because with the old CCFL, whether branded or chinese, mainly the latter, they get burned after a way shorter lifespan than the conventional halogen or incandescent. The problem is now well known and was related to the number of turn on/off  cycles, air flowing and so on, achieving a long life (if the lamp was reliable) when turned on/off only one time per day in average, in a aired environment. Ok, they tried, it was a transitioning technology.

So I was quite happy about LEDs, as they are supposed to withstand more cycles. Problem is that, with the proper branded lamps, in a batch of 6 between 2 Philips and 4 Osram, only the Philips and 2 Osram survived, and the Osram were in a place in which they were not used often. The ones that died, were stopped working after 1 month, in the living room, where the switch cycles were not frequent, in a open lamp holder. Opening the lamp, I saw the LED die burned with a black spot.
Then I bought a lower brand, made in china but from a proper supplier (Beghelli) with simpler converter,  which did not uses a full AC/DC, but a rectified method, therefore the LEDs were flickering a bit. The lamps are there for 2 years now, and they were 50% cheaper.

Now I need to update some spot light, with G5.3 lights, and the last bought was Philips which I was happy with. I wanted to order on Amazon again, but the price seems higher and I started to look for reviews of alternatives. Osram and Philips got fairly negative ones, while Amazon's chinese brands were pretty good evaulated. Now I believe them.

So my question is, if I want to be safe, should I continue to waste my money in LED lamps from proper manufacturers and being safe, or there are alternatives which are reliable brands? I don't like to buy from anonymous brands though, like all the chinese alternative on Amazon.

I wonder if those big companies are aware on the lack of reliability of their stuff.

Thanks for your opinions!

Online Zero999

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2019, 12:51:06 pm »
Everyone seems to have differing experiences with LED lamps. I replaced all the lamps in my parent's house with LEDs, some cheap no brand and some more expensive branded ones around 5 years ago and not had any problems. The only issue I've had is with some very cheap LED lamps, used in a bedside lamp which blew fairly quickly.

In my house, I have a mixture of LED and CFL. The latter came with the house. I don't bother replacing CFL lamps with LED,  unless the lamp has failed, as it results in minimal energy savings.
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2019, 04:22:54 pm »
I entirely skipped the whole nonsensical CCFL fad and waited for LED's to mature. A couple of years ago we remodeled the house and in the process switched 99% of the bulbs to LED's. Since that time we've lost just one to failure, which is better than incandescents ever performed.

Many of the replaced bulbs were high intensity GU10 50W halogens, used for general lighting in the kitchen and living room and in the lights in ceiling fans. Those 50W add up fast... 6-8 of them on a strip is a 300-400 watt fixture! When we'd have power outages we'd avoid using them because they represented a decent percentage of our 7KW generator's output.

That's been the single best improvement from the LED's: If the power is out and we're on generator, we don't have to be selective about the electrical appliances/lights we use. All sources of heat are natural gas, not electricity ("If you want heat, burn something!"), so we only need power to run blowers and induction air fans to heat the entire house. When we had incandescents and (especially) halogens, we had to be selective.

BTW, those GU10 LED bulbs are amazing. Every bit as intense as halogens, and the pure white 5000K color temperature is an awesome bonus. Regular old Edison base "40-75W equivalent" bulbs aren't that technologically impressive, but packing 50W equivalent optical output into the GU10's small form factor is really impressive. Cheap too... we get boxes of 6-10 from Amazon or eBay for far less than the local big box stores want.
 

Offline DaJMasta

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2019, 05:09:46 pm »
I've switched over a bunch for some years, and my experience so far is that they're around the reliability of decent fluorescents - though I suspect that with time they'll prove to be better, it's just a small sample size.


Had a 100W equivalent bulb fail just a couple weeks ago, so I opened it up.  Phillips brand, looked OK on the LED board side and the power supply bit in the stem would have been gnarly to get out, so I pulled the board and couldn't power it up on an external supply.  Turned out one LED on the board had failed open, and even though there were 20 or so, since they were all wired in series for better efficiency in the voltage downconversion.... they all went out.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2019, 07:14:43 pm »
Yup my LED bulbs fail too. They can't make them too reliable or manufacturers would lose too much money. They need to ride the "green" hype all the way to the bank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel
 
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Online Marco

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2019, 07:19:22 pm »
I think a big problem is cultural, we just don't return cheap items to the store often enough any more. The pressure on manufacturers to keep MTBF and variability under control is being lost.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2019, 07:48:59 pm »
Actually, it's the sea of patents that prevents decent LED bulbs from being made.
Even a little method is patented and litigated. So you are really limited for heatsink strategies, for example.
Vent holes, fins etc. are patented. Between Cree, Feit, Osram, Philips, LG, Seoul etc. thousands of patents and tons of lawsuits.
It's to the point you can't simply make a decent design, you have to jump through hoops to avoid infringing on someone's IP.

End result: crappy lifetime and higher environmental costs, compared to incandescent bulbs.
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2019, 08:00:44 pm »
I have switched relatively late, most of them about 2 years ago. I started with the lower power ones (e.g. 3-5 W LEDs). So far not s single failure from mixed brands and cheap ones.  From what I have heard the early higher power ones tended to fail - so I avoided them.

The early ESL were kind of OK, the later ones with reduced Hg take way too long to fully turn on.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2019, 08:14:54 pm »
Actually, it's the sea of patents that prevents decent LED bulbs from being made.

Oh bullcrap
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2019, 08:59:34 pm »
Actually, it's the sea of patents that prevents decent LED bulbs from being made.

Oh bullcrap

Do your research, take a look at the patents.
It doesn't matter if you are Kmart, Lowe's etc. you will get sued for patent infringement: https://www.ledinside.com/taxonomy/term/2463

One example, against Lowe's... you can't even use glue:

"Epistar’s complaint alleges that the Kichler Lighting’s LED filament bulbs such as the Kichler Lighting 60 W Equivalent Dimmable Soft White A15 LED Decorative Light Bulb (P/N: YGA16A08-A15C-CL-5W) infringe one or more claims of Epistar’s U.S. Patent Numbers 6,346,771, titled “High Power LED Lamp,” 7,560,738, titled “Light-Emitting Diode Array Having An Adhesive Layer,” 8,791,467, titled “Light Emitting Diode And Method Of Making The Same,” 8,492,780, titled “Light-Emitting Device And Manufacturing Method Thereof,” and 8,587,020, titled “LED Lamp.”
 
Epistar’s complaint also alleges that the Utilitech’s LED bulbs such as the Utilitech 60 W Equivalent Warm White A19 LED Light Fixture Light Bulb (P/N: YGA03A41-A19-9W-830) infringe one or more claims of Epistar’s U.S. Patent Numbers 8,492,780, titled “Light-Emitting Device And Manufacturing Method Thereof,” and 8,587,020, titled “LED Lamp.”
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 09:01:37 pm by floobydust »
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2019, 09:05:21 pm »
Yes I'm sure there is the usual patent circus, but it's irrelevant.

Manufacturers simply want to make bulbs as cheap as possible in order to move more product, and consumables are the perfect market for this.

we just don't return cheap items to the store
Exactly right. They know you won't be driving back to the store to return your $3 bulb.
 

Offline MD Kowshik

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2019, 07:55:25 am »
Well I once bought a LED lamp (osram) for my bedroom almost 6 years ago and its still going .... I also bought a LED lamp a few weeks ago (chinese) and it blew up in my face as I turned it on for the first time so....  :-//
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2019, 08:17:24 am »
one lamp ... is that supposed to be significant in some way?  :-//

The one that failed on me was a common brand from a local store.
 

Offline jackwatson

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2019, 09:50:54 am »
LED light usage depends on where you use them, they can get damaged usually when you provide a higher voltage than required. But otherwise they have a quite long span. I have been using led's all over my house right now and i dont think i have replaced any in the past 6 months

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2019, 09:56:28 am »
they can get damaged usually when you provide a higher voltage than required.
Not sure about you guys, but the line voltage here is pretty consistent. I would also think that household electronics are required to be a bit tolerant.

6 months isn't much.
 

Offline thexenoTopic starter

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2019, 09:24:44 am »
Ok,  for some reason I don't feel more optimistic after reading the replies. I have to say, really interesting optinions..  :palm:
So, the solution is making your own LED bulbs with the best technology, in bulk, not selling them so you can not be charged for patent infringement! But they must be in enough quantity up to provide light forniture to your grand-grand-children to spread the costs :)

Offline OwO

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2019, 09:36:06 am »
Building a good quality LED lamp is not hard, as long as you are willing to give up the "bulb" form factor. All you need are some LED strips, a good quality power supply/driver, and a big aluminum plate.
Email: OwOwOwOwO123@outlook.com
 

Online Marco

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2019, 10:18:36 am »
If the EU wanted to do something useful (Hah) they should create a standardized DC socket with standardized dimming protocol, and mandate procurement of it for all EU agencies. The commercial high reliability LED lighting has separate DC transformers. For residential we're stuck with AC for sockets because the only low voltage sockets we have are legacy AC ones for halogen lights. So we can get strips or an electrolytic capacitor in the lamp body.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2019, 11:02:01 am »
Two years ago I bought four some brands of led bulbs with the same socket, power and colourtemperature.
Philips, Osram, China1, China2

Well the chinese have their cutting corners strategies:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/lets-see-what-a-$4-ebay-_cree_-ledspot-looks-like/msg1189082/#msg1189082

But with later spots I also found out that the cheapest Philips drivers are inside almost chinese with some addons like a proper fuse.
But the leds and panels are from the same kind of factory as the china2 spots.

Why?  Philips can't compete anymore with their western design led spots because no westerner will pay the extra few $ to get a decent led lamp.
So they "clone" or better said make their led lamps the same price as the cheapest no-name brands , add a few minimal safety addons like proper fuse so they can't be sued in case it might be a cause of fire, and sell them with the $0,10 profit. Look at their stock prices and years results, they are not doing ok on the led lamp sells. Where they make their money is on professional lighting where the industries require and demand long lifetime and less care about the final price.
In professional lighting the cost of ownership is directly fixed with the reliability and longlevity of the product.
If you have to replace a driver or led panel from a street lamp someone has to driver there, climb in the pole and exchange the hardware. Total cost of that operation in manhours far exceeds the cost of the hardware that is replaced.

But western consumers are so cheap these days, they refuse to pay a decent price for their lighting products, not only the bulbs but also the fixtures are bought at Ikea for $10 instead of Lampstore design fixture for ten times that price, they don't care, if there is light, there is light.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2019, 11:29:52 am »
I'm afraid if you want reliability you will need to make your own LED lighting.
The LEDs themselves are fine but the drivers in consumer lights are always pushed near their thermal max to make them fail in the 1-3 year range.

LED strip lighting is one way to get something reliable. And you can make some pretty nice room lighting with hidden led strips.

I've done my bedroom with a hangng false-ceiling with RGBW strip lighting and am very happy with it.
It's all indirect light and shines up onto the real ceiling and reflects off that.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 11:32:11 am by Psi »
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2019, 01:10:54 pm »
apples and oranges.
Led light strips have a diffused light for coves and large area lighting.
Led spots have a focussed light beam to accentuate certain objects.

Besides the efficiency of led strips is low due to the resistors

 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2019, 01:17:48 pm »
Led strips use low power leds (typ. 20 mA) (0,06W)
Led spot lights use medium power leds (200-500mA) (0,5-2W)

When you can live with diffuse lighting and still want more light I would suggest make your own led panels with medium power leds and as many in series per string as your led driver supports to get high efficiency.
 

Offline Nauris

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2019, 05:09:07 pm »
Building a good quality LED lamp is not hard, as long as you are willing to give up the "bulb" form factor. All you need are some LED strips, a good quality power supply/driver, and a big aluminum plate.
"Linear fluorescent tube" is a good form factor, it has all you list in easy to change unit, well maybe not aluminium plate but glass tube instead but they don't run hot. We have two dozen and not a single one broken yet and they are well past 10k hours already.
 
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Offline rrinker

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2019, 08:09:27 pm »
 Guess I better get more of those Utilitech 60 watt equivalents before they get blocked from selling them. I have LOTS of those, those are the ones I typically use for most standard light fixtures. I replaced every other type of light in my house with them, going on 5 ears now I think I have one failure, although sometimes it works so I haven't bothered to replace it yet. It's in a multi-bulb fixture so there's still plenty of light. I have a couple of fixtures plus an outdoor pole light that use the candelabra base type, those are all still going strong. The newest ones replaced my back yard floodlights, but even those are almost 3 years old now with no issues. And those are on ALL the time, always turn on the lights to let the dogs out. So they get a lot of use PLUS lots of cycling on and off. Multiple times per day. Pretty sure even those are Utilitech brand.

 

Offline djacobow

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2019, 09:05:00 pm »
Just another datapoint:

I have a bunch of Home Depot LED cans installed about 7 years ago when they were $40-50 a pop and they are all still going (knock wood), though the built-in, non-replaceable fascia has yellowed. They also work nicely with dimmers.

I also have a bunch of Edison-base bulbs in ceiling fixtures in the kids' bedrooms and these fail at an alarming rate. These are enclosed fixtures with the bulb mounted horizontally and with no airflow. I have tried different brands, cheap, expensive, n between. I don't think I have seen a single bulb last more than a year without failing. I keep throwing money at this, but ultimately, I think the solution is new fixtures.

I think the testing on the LED edison style bulbs has mostly been done in simulated table lamps: bulb upright in free airflow. This is, unfortunately, probably the ideal circumstance for bulb and not a good simulation of modern usage.

I'm pretty disappointed overall.
 


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