Author Topic: New LED lights reliability  (Read 14076 times)

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Offline Marco

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2019, 06:40:30 pm »
Perfect if you like really flickery lights that aren't compatible with dimmers.

Only true for the pure capacitive droppers ... how common are those compared to active converters (dimmable) and linear regulators (not dimmable, but not much flicker either)?
 

Online Kjelt

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2019, 07:12:30 pm »
SMD LEDs are foolish vintage crap.
Try  new  technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_filament
It all depends on your application.
If you have an existing fixture fitting for a conventional bulb, yes good replacement.
If you have downlighters , or ceiling fixtures or cabinet ligting or spots you don't need diffuse 360o light, you only need light shining in a restricted angle, so led smds are preferred.

 

Offline 001

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2019, 07:14:39 pm »
SMD LEDs are foolish vintage crap.
Try  new  technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_filament
It all depends on your application.
If you have an existing fixture fitting for a conventional bulb, yes good replacement.
If you have downlighters , or ceiling fixtures or cabinet ligting or spots you don't need diffuse 360o light, you only need light shining in a restricted angle, so led smds are preferred.

The main benefits of filament led are great cooling conditions. No massive aluminium bricks around
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2019, 07:53:26 pm »
Hi!

Unnecessarily huge red text is foolish vintage crap.

What is the lumen output of the those filament bulbs? It's probably nowhere near what SMD led or incandescent bulbs produce.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2019, 08:25:54 pm »
What is the lumen output of the those filament bulbs? It's probably nowhere near what SMD led or incandescent bulbs produce.

They are a bit expensive, but Segula has a 40W E40 filament bulb.

I wonder if it's the filament or switching electronics which are the limiting factor in this respect.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 08:27:40 pm by Marco »
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2019, 08:43:40 pm »
I said lumen output, not power input.

A) they are tiny LED emitters so they will never product much light. These bulbs are usually used for decoration, not illumination.

B) There's virtually no thermal mass. It's extremely easy to overheat those tiny filaments. Power is intentionally kept low.

The 40W bulb you mention is ENORMOUS.
 

Online Kjelt

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2019, 08:51:00 pm »
The efficiency of modern filaments look to be up to par to smd leds if I google quickly.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2019, 09:03:55 pm »
The 40W bulb you mention is ENORMOUS.

It's also 240W equivalent, 100W equivalent ones are dime a dozen.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2019, 09:07:42 pm »
Wow ... a dime a dozen. That really is cheap.

And I'm sure the specs are 100% real too.

 

Offline Marco

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2019, 09:24:30 pm »
100 lm/W was standard even for box store lamps four years ago. So yeah, those specs are real.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 10:08:55 pm by Marco »
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2019, 09:36:49 pm »
link is broken.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2019, 09:41:34 pm »
Pleases show me an LED filament bulb that can replace a 100W A19 size incandescent bulb that will output the same light (1600W) with good color spectrum for a sensible price, from a reputable brand (because we all know Chinese sellers are honest about their specifications)
 

Offline Marco

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2019, 10:18:28 pm »
12W OSRAM dimmable. Dimmable is a bit rare in this range, guess they need too much room for the electronics.

PS. you'll have to click through to get to the 12W model, OSRAM hired a retarded web monkey.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2019, 10:25:35 pm »
It's huge (A70). It won't fit.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2019, 11:10:09 pm »
Huge is a bit hyperbole, but indeed there don't seem to be any filament lamps in that range. There are LED bulbs from Philips in the range, but it won't have the omnidirectional spread of filament.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 11:13:02 pm by Marco »
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #65 on: February 08, 2019, 12:28:07 am »
well I just realized that A70 is a metric designation, which is really confusing and stupid. But yes it still won't fit most household fixtures.

I question the usefulness of LEDs for retrofit use, after you consider all the factors performance, price, reliability etc. Especially where electricity is cheap.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #66 on: February 08, 2019, 12:33:59 am »
If you want long life LED lamps you can always buy a high power LED lamp then take it apart.
Modify it to reduce the power down by 50%. That will boost it's lifespan A LOT.
Since heat is the number 1 killer of led lamps.

Need 20W, buy 40W and modify.


Obviously it takes some effort and maybe you can't be bothered, but it will definitely last MUCH longer.
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #67 on: February 08, 2019, 01:31:42 am »
I question the usefulness of LEDs for retrofit use, after you consider all the factors performance, price, reliability etc. Especially where electricity is cheap.

That's not here, over say 10000 hours a 100 Watt bulb costs me 200 Euro in electricity.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #68 on: February 08, 2019, 02:56:24 am »
There already are reliable and long lasting LED bulbs, this problem has been solved for years. I have some from 2011 that are still working, even the ones that have run 12 hours a night on a timer all this time. How long do you need them to last?

The biggest filament type I have are 800lm (60W equiv) I'm not a big fan of that type though. They tend to run cool since they have a large number of emitters driven at low current so they work well in enclosed fixtures but they also lack space for a proper high frequency driver so I find they have perceptible flicker.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #69 on: February 08, 2019, 03:35:29 am »
Why would a proper high frequency driver be large?
 

Offline james_s

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #70 on: February 08, 2019, 04:21:43 am »
Why would a proper high frequency driver be large?

Generally because inductors and electrolytic capacitors are relatively large, and high frequency drivers typically have at least one of each of those. Note that "large" is relative to the linear driver ICs used in most of the filament style bulbs.
 

Offline OwO

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #71 on: February 08, 2019, 05:03:37 am »
LED bulbs that are actually bright run too hot, and LED bulbs that last long are not bright enough.

The efficiency of LEDs max out at <50%, so there is no way around the power dissipation problem. Even the most efficient 6W bulbs are nowhere near bright enough, so you need >5 of them for a typical bedroom. This is grossly suboptimal because instead of having one PSU/driver you have 5 of them, and each crammed into a tight space with LEDs running at 60 degrees C which does not bode well for the lifetime of the electrolytic capacitors.
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Offline james_s

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #72 on: February 08, 2019, 05:28:18 am »
I simply don't find that to be the case. My bedroom ceiling light has 3 early Philips 8W remote phosphor lamps, they are plenty bright and have been in service for 8 years now. The fixture in my hall has a pair of 6.5W 800lm filament style bulbs, again plenty bright. Over the dining table the fixture has 5 sockets with Philips 10.5W LED bulbs, they're way too bright at full brightness so they're on a dimmer and run typically at about half brightness. The bathrooms and several other rooms are lit by pairs of early Philips 12.5W bulbs, I've never had one of those fail. It feels like I've gone back in a time machine, people talking like bulbs don't exist yet that I've already been using for the better part of a decade. 100% of the Edison base fixtures and lamps in and on my house have been fitted with LED bulbs for years now, at least 30 bulbs in total, they're bright and reliable.
 
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Online NiHaoMike

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #73 on: February 08, 2019, 05:37:12 am »
LED bulbs that are actually bright run too hot, and LED bulbs that last long are not bright enough.

The efficiency of LEDs max out at <50%, so there is no way around the power dissipation problem. Even the most efficient 6W bulbs are nowhere near bright enough, so you need >5 of them for a typical bedroom. This is grossly suboptimal because instead of having one PSU/driver you have 5 of them, and each crammed into a tight space with LEDs running at 60 degrees C which does not bode well for the lifetime of the electrolytic capacitors.
I simply don't find that to be the case. My bedroom ceiling light has 3 early Philips 8W remote phosphor lamps, they are plenty bright and have been in service for 8 years now. The fixture in my hall has a pair of 6.5W 800lm filament style bulbs, again plenty bright. Over the dining table the fixture has 5 sockets with Philips 10.5W LED bulbs, they're way too bright at full brightness so they're on a dimmer and run typically at about half brightness. The bathrooms and several other rooms are lit by pairs of early Philips 12.5W bulbs, I've never had one of those fail. It feels like I've gone back in a time machine, people talking like bulbs don't exist yet that I've already been using for the better part of a decade. 100% of the Edison base fixtures and lamps in and on my house have been fitted with LED bulbs for years now, at least 30 bulbs in total, they're bright and reliable.
I have to agree that if it's just a normal bedroom only used as a bedroom, something like 5W of LED lighting is plenty to not run into things while going to bed. If having to get up in the middle of the night, even 1W is unpleasantly bright and a single 5mm LED is about perfect.
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Offline Marco

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #74 on: February 08, 2019, 06:29:13 am »
Generally because inductors and electrolytic capacitors are relatively large, and high frequency drivers typically have at least one of each of those. Note that "large" is relative to the linear driver ICs used in most of the filament style bulbs.

6.8 uF electrolytic is more than enough to keep the rectified voltage above 110V and fits just fine in E27, same goes for an inductor for a ~100 kHz buck converter.

Even film capacitors would probably fit, but it would be much more expensive.
 


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