Author Topic: New LED lights reliability  (Read 14072 times)

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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #75 on: February 08, 2019, 09:21:08 am »
If you want long life LED lamps you can always buy a high power LED lamp then take it apart.
Right because I have nothing better to do. Plus they are not made to be taken apart.

Need 20W, buy 40W and modify.
As I already said, retrofit LED bulbs of equivalent output are larger than the the classic shapes they try to emulate.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #76 on: February 08, 2019, 09:25:53 am »
60W equivalent bulbs are OK for some locations. But places like the kitchen and workspaces, 100W equivalent bulbs are definitely needed. Especially in 70+ year old houses like the one I live in, where fixtures and outlets are sparse, and if you have few windows or are near or below ground level.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 09:54:28 am by timelessbeing »
 

Offline 001

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #77 on: February 08, 2019, 09:28:36 am »
Why I`m so angry to read that?  :rant: :rant: :rant:
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #78 on: February 08, 2019, 09:58:25 am »
I don't know but it's not healthy.
 

Online Kjelt

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #79 on: February 08, 2019, 10:13:30 am »
we can read and hear you with a normal fontsize and color just as well.
Are you short of attention ?  :palm:
 

Offline 001

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #80 on: February 08, 2019, 10:38:08 am »
  It feels like I've gone back in a time machine, people talking like bulbs don't exist yet that I've already been using for the better part of a decade.

Me too.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #81 on: February 08, 2019, 10:40:07 am »
60W equivalent bulbs are OK for some locations. But places like the kitchen and workspaces, 100W equivalent bulbs are definitely needed. Especially in 70+ year old houses like mine where fixtures and outlets are sparse, and if you have few windows or are near or below ground level.

Here and a dimmable one.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #82 on: February 08, 2019, 11:26:30 am »
I didn't find one for 110V
 

Offline madires

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #83 on: February 08, 2019, 11:28:43 am »
I had a few broken LED lights so far, mostly spotlight types. In all cases it was poor thermal design causing the driver to fail. Especially the lamps for spotlight bulbs with a tight cover and limited air flow are problematic.
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #84 on: February 08, 2019, 11:54:00 am »
I didn't find one for 110V
The US has its own brands though ... Topaz has 15W A19 bulbs.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #85 on: February 08, 2019, 12:04:49 pm »
The US has its own brands though ... Topaz has 15W A19 bulbs.
OK but we are getting off topic now. These Corepro are ordinary SMD LED bulbs. I know those exist, and as we discussed they're not very useful since they overheat easily. Are they rated for use inside enclosed fixtures?

It was suggested that filament bulbs were a better solution, hence I said:
Pleases show me an LED filament bulb that can replace a 100W A19 ...
But I haven't yet seen any good candidates.

As I suspected, there still are no decent retrofit bulbs ...
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 12:08:32 pm by timelessbeing »
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #86 on: February 08, 2019, 04:03:02 pm »
I just need to stop and point out the arrogance on display in this thread. Such is common among engineers, and it is a good example of why engineers actually should generally not be allowed to design products unsupervised.

If you have found LED bulbs that are suitable for all of your needs, congratulations, that's great.

But it is absolutely insane to insist that this is a general principle good for everyone. It is up to each person considering LEDs to decide if they are bright enough, convenient enough, and reliable enough for them. In this thread, several people have pointed out that they are not, in fact, adequate for their needs. I find it rather bizarre that anyone would dispute another person's experience. But we see it over and over again:

 "I need a 100W equivalent" --> "no you don't, these are plenty bright"
 "I have old fixtures that kill retrofit LEDs" -> "well, get all new fixtures"

I think someone here even told someone else that the only light they need in their bedroom is to be able to get around at night. Maybe the person whose bedroom it is should decide that? My kids play and do homework in their bedroom.

You almost have to insinuate that the person saying the LEDs don't work for them are somehow deranged, rather than ordinary human beings who can identify if something is unsatisfactory for them.

As for me, I have deployed LEDs all over my home and they have performed well in some circumstances and poorly in others, and no, generally the retrofits have proven inadequate. At temperatures that don't kill elcos, you simply can't dissipate heat by radiation, and so the retrofits are dependent on convection, and that rules out an important swathe of potential retrofit applications. I think they'll crack this nut eventually, most likely by eliminating the most heat-intolerant parts of the lamp, not by berating customers.
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #87 on: February 08, 2019, 06:08:42 pm »
Thermal cycling of good old unleaded solder can kill it too.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #88 on: February 08, 2019, 09:45:04 pm »
"I need a 100W equivalent" --> "no you don't, these are plenty bright"


What I see are people making blanket statements that lamps with these specs don't exist when in fact they do. Need 100W equiv? Philips makes a 1600 lumen A21 LED bulb, they're available at Home Depot among other places and they work fine, I have one in one of the few applications I have for such a bright lamp.


"I have old fixtures that kill retrofit LEDs" -> "well, get all new fixtures"

No need to get new fixtures, there are retrofit bulbs that will tolerate most types of existing fixtures, for example these are rated for use in fully enclosed fixtures https://creebulb.com/60-watt-replacement-soft-white  I have some of the previous generation in small enclosed ceiling globe fixtures and have yet to see a failure.

There are many poorly designed LED retrofit bulbs out there, and many that work well in some types of fixtures but are not appropriate for other types. It's not as simple as it used to be where you'd go out and buy a pack of bulbs of a given wattage and they would just work, but bulbs that work are available for a majority of applications, it's not as if they don't exist or have not yet been developed.

And for those really specific applications you can still get incandescent bulbs, or bulbs containing a small halogen capsule which are marginally more efficient than a standard incandescent, enough so to get around the energy regulations.

Also yes I will concede there is some arrogance, but also I see the same attitude as pops up in nearly any EV-related thread of "Well it doesn't work for my use case so it's a silly idea that is completely pointless all around and will never work" or "but what about this edge case?". Or the old "I tried a 99 cent unbranded Chinese bulb and it crapped out after a week so LED bulbs are all junk thought up by some kind of liberal conspiracy!"
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #89 on: February 08, 2019, 10:50:07 pm »

What I see are people making blanket statements that lamps with these specs don't exist when in fact they do. Need 100W equiv? Philips makes a 1600 lumen A21 LED bulb, they're available at Home Depot among other places and they work fine, I have one in one of the few applications I have for such a bright lamp.


Also yes I will concede there is some arrogance, but also I see the same attitude as pops up in nearly any EV-related thread of "Well it doesn't work for my use case so it's a silly idea that is completely pointless all around and will never work" or "but what about this edge case?". Or the old "I tried a 99 cent unbranded Chinese bulb and it crapped out after a week so LED bulbs are all junk thought up by some kind of liberal conspiracy!"
Yup, I'm a little late to the party.  I did make 4 custom LED retrofits (detailed in earlier posts) but have now been replacing all my CFLs with LEDs as the CFLs expire.  I usually get 3-5 years out of the CFLs, depending on usage.  Bathrooms seem to be really HARD on CFLs due to the humidity.  It is still too soon to know how well the commercial LED "bulbs" will do, but I've probably got a dozen installed now, and NONE have failed.  Some have likely been in place 2 years or more.  A number are in base-up fixtures, so that seems to make the electronics run hotter.

Jon
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #90 on: February 08, 2019, 11:37:41 pm »
You almost have to insinuate that the person saying the LEDs don't work for them are somehow deranged, rather than ordinary human beings who can identify if something is unsatisfactory for them.

Yep. I encounter that a lot in this forum. If you take moderate position on something, you immediately get slotted into the camp that is the polar opposite of their opinion. I think some people just like hearing the sound of their own voice.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #91 on: February 08, 2019, 11:54:22 pm »
What I see are people making blanket statements...
What I see is someone who has a reading comprehension deficiency


It's not as simple as it used to be where you'd go out and buy a pack of bulbs of a given wattage and they would just work
Bingo. Glad you understand now.

related thread of "Well it doesn't work for my use case so it's a silly idea that is completely pointless all around and will never work"
Literally nobody said this. You're mincing words.

"but what about this edge case?"
Geez I'm so picky for wanting to light my living space to suit my needs which, by the way, didn't use to be a problem. To me it is a downgrade. Sue me.

"I tried a 99 cent unbranded Chinese bulb and it crapped out after a week
You're not gaining any credibility with fabrications like this. I specifically mentioned branded bulbs.


  so LED bulbs are all junk thought up by some kind of liberal conspiracy!"
And here perhaps your motivations are peeking through. Is this a political issue for you?
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #92 on: February 09, 2019, 04:45:42 am »
What I see are people making blanket statements that lamps with these specs don't exist when in fact they do. Need 100W equiv?

That's just the the thing "equiv" doesn't just mean the same output. If it doesn't mean "able to fill the same role", then it is something less than equiv.

Philips makes a 1600 lumen A21 LED bulb, they're available at Home Depot among other places and they work fine, I have one in one of the few applications I have for such a bright lamp.

All of the bulbs I have tried that have failed were purchased at HD. These were not crap brands like "Feit" (though I have tried that, too.) I've had failures inside 1 year with Cree, GE, and Philips.

No need to get new fixtures, there are retrofit bulbs that will tolerate most types of existing fixtures, for example these are rated for use in fully enclosed fixtures https://creebulb.com/60-watt-replacement-soft-white  I have some of the previous generation in small enclosed ceiling globe fixtures and have yet to see a failure.

I was not aware of this bulb, but  I was in HD today and saw it. Om your recommendation, I bought two and will revive this thread in a year to report back.

There are many poorly designed LED retrofit bulbs out there, and many that work well in some types of fixtures but are not appropriate for other types. It's not as simple as it used to be where you'd go out and buy a pack of bulbs of a given wattage and they would just work, but bulbs that work are available for a majority of applications, it's not as if they don't exist or have not yet been developed.

No, it's not as simple as it used to be, and it seems the bulb manufacturers are not doing much to help. For example, here is a photo I took today of a GE product:



Spot the section where they mention it can't be used in an enclosed fixture? It's there.

Also yes I will concede there is some arrogance, but also I see the same attitude as pops up in nearly any EV-related thread of "Well it doesn't work for my use case so it's a silly idea that is completely pointless all around and will never work" or "but what about this edge case?". Or the old "I tried a 99 cent unbranded Chinese bulb and it crapped out after a week so LED bulbs are all junk thought up by some kind of liberal conspiracy!"

A few points:

- first, the problems do not all come from 99 cent unbranded Chinese bulbs. And in fact, probably all the bulbs are Chinese in origin

- your edge case is my normal case. For your EV example, I drive crappy, utilitarian cars, like a Honda Fit, which I bought new for $16.5k about ten years ago. It can go 250 miles on a tank and gets about 20 locally and 40 on the freeway. Is there an EV that fits that niche? Not even close. Is it an important niche? To me it is. Are there awesome EVs? Of course there are. Will there be an EV soon that fits my mission profile? Dubious.

- the lightbulb industry just so happens to have a documented history of criminal conspiracy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel


 
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Online Kjelt

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #93 on: February 09, 2019, 11:24:12 am »
Quote
- first, the problems do not all come from 99 cent unbranded Chinese bulbs. And in fact, probably all the bulbs are Chinese in origin
A lot of western companies produce nowadays in China.
The big difference is that they supervise these factories, have strict requirements about the brand components they should use, etc.
Your statement says nothing. Still as I already stated even brand producers are nowadays selling cheap products that have dubious lifetime because the market demands those products.
For some applications as an attick where you come twice a year that might be very acceptable. But a lot of people make the mistake putting these bulbs in sensor switched fixtures where they might well get 5000 switch on/offs or more per year. They are not designed for that.
If you want that you should as an exaple use a Dali sensor that sends a Dali message to a Dali driver that is mains powered on 24/7 and is always in low power standby.

But as said earlier hard to explain to grandma Jones, hell it is obvious from this topic that even EEs sometimes have no clue and start brabbling all kinds of nonsense from their statistical experiment with n=1.  :palm:
 
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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #94 on: February 09, 2019, 10:11:12 pm »
All bulbs I buy at my local home improvement store should be able to withstand being switched on and off, many times per day. I think that is a reasonable expectation.
 

Offline 001

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #95 on: February 09, 2019, 10:13:22 pm »
is it sort of holywar?  :popcorn:
 

Online Kjelt

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #96 on: February 09, 2019, 10:56:05 pm »
All bulbs I buy at my local home improvement store should be able to withstand being switched on and off, many times per day. I think that is a reasonable expectation.
Yup up to 10000 times or more if the manufacturer says so on the package because you know what on switching rectified mains pulse does with the bus capacitor.
Was it better with conventional bulbs? No they lasted 1000 hours and a lot less if you switched it on at peak if the AC wave. I had some conventional bulbs blow in a few months, bad luck few times switch on at peak.
There are softstart designed for this purpose.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #97 on: February 10, 2019, 12:28:12 am »
Photonicinduction did a good video on this. The corn cob style LEDs seem to be the worst.
https://youtu.be/ikAql0nbSfs
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #98 on: February 10, 2019, 01:08:52 am »
But as said earlier hard to explain to grandma Jones, hell it is obvious from this topic that even EEs sometimes have no clue and start brabbling all kinds of nonsense from their statistical experiment with n=1.  :palm:


Oh, FFS no. If you have to explain how a particular lightbulb works to Grandma Jones, then you have failed. Your lightbulb has failed. Your product is a failure and it deserved to fail. It's as simple as that.

Lightbulbs are not esoteric engineering products intended for use by experts. It's lighting, as in the first or second household application of electricity. People have expectations for how a lightbub will perform and nobody who doesn't have a particular interest in lightbulbs should have to build up a working knowledge of the constraints and limitations of a particular trechnology or implementation in order to make decisions about it, especially if the product is being marketing as retrofit.

I don't see the relevance of the rest of your post. Do incandescents fail if they are switched too much? Sure. But people know that. And the incandescent manufacturers aren't making any new claims. Their basic claim is the same as ever: this lightbulb works like that last one and costs $0.80. Will any old bulb work in an attic that where it is used for 30 minutes a year? Sure. In fact, there is absolutely no reason to put an LED there since the total lifetime energy use is negligible.

You make an interesting but ill-conceived  point about n=1, that people should not form judgments from their very limited experience. Though this is true, I've got some news for you: that's indeed how they do it. They're not going to consult government reports on lightbulb performance. They are not going to sift through Consumer Reports lightbulb reviews. They are not going to build up a spreadsheet collecting data from their friends and neighbors. They are going to buy one bulb off an endcap at the local hardware store for $8 under the promise that it will save them some money in the long run, and they will screw it into the next available socket. And if that bulb fails in a year or two, they're going to remember that outcome, and that will be the end of $8 bulbs for that person for a decade or more. (or until they have no choice)

That is how people make these kinds of decisions. Economists call this "bounded rationality" and contrary to being a sign of stupidity or laziness, it is a reasonable way to make decisions in a complex world where you don't have the time or resources to know about everything. Given this behavior, LED manufacturers would be smart to design product that are extremely unlikely to fail in the promised time. This means, for example, that if you want to make a claim of 20 years life, you might want a product with an MTBF several times that. It also means not shoving the restrictions and limitations of the bulb into a blob of fine print on the side of the box where it serves primarily to protect the company rather than inform the consumer.

Finally, in my case, I have had 7 LED failures in 6 sockets in just over 7 years. It's more than large enough N to know that there is something amiss between the label on the package and reality.


PS -- I don't like that I have to play the "anti LED" guy in a thread like this. I actually like LEDs and want them to work. There is a reason I keep buying them. They have qualities that I rather enjoy and in fact, I prefer the light output of them over incandescent. There is not a single incandescent bulb in my house today and only a few fluorescent remain in fixtures that have build in ballasts and are in locations that are difficult to access for replacement. But I have also been burned by LED retrofit bulbs repeatedly, and man, I can not I not stand fanboy bullshit from people who will tell me to my face that my direct experience is irrelevant or that worse, that I would not have this experience if I wasn't so damned stupid.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 01:18:01 am by djacobow »
 
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Offline texaspyro

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Re: New LED lights reliability
« Reply #99 on: February 10, 2019, 05:02:38 am »
My house has over 300 bulbs... most are recessed ceiling can type lights or spotlight type bulbs painting walls / artwork.  Around 10 years ago I looked into doing a LED upgrade... it would have cost $14,000 dollars.  Then I found an Ebay seller offering what were large (20-50  piece) lots of apparently big-box store returns for dirt-cheap prices.   Almost all were made for Sylvania and others by Lighting Science Group.  It turned out the price of those cheap LED bulbs was very close or lower than to the price of halogens at the time.  I wound up paying around $1000 plus another $400 dollars for some specialty high CRI bulbs for the kitchen, my office, and some artwork spotlights.

Anyway, I replaced all the incandescents with LEDs.  I had been replacing at least one incandescent a week and if one of the PAR20 halogens in the kitchen died it often took out a few other bulbs and a $30 dimmer.  I kept a closet filled with spare incandescent bulbs.   Over the last 10 years I have have replaced a grand total of 3 (count 'em... three) LED bulbs and 0 dimmers. 

My LED bulbs are old-school models with massive, very heavy heat sinks.  Their light output is around 70 lumens per watt.  Their light output exceeded the incandescent / halogen bulbs that they replaced.  I have had one running 24/7/365 for 10 years.  I have a sophisticated integrating sphere setup that can measure light output and color temperature.  Periodically I check that bulb for light output... it is still virtually the same as when I first installed it... LEDs seem to be quite a bit more stable over time than originally predicted.

The problem with newer LED bulbs is that they have been cost reduced to the maximum using flimsy heat sinks and lower cost components.

An interesing thing happened with the Sylvania PAR20 LED bulbs... they were recalled.  I shipped over 100 back and got brand new replacements for my used bulbs.
 
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