Author Topic: Opamps - Die pictures  (Read 18869 times)

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Offline Noopy

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #175 on: April 08, 2021, 08:44:25 pm »
Funnily enough, they used to make JFET opamps with bias cancellation :wtf:

This is OP-15 from Precision Monolithics, supposedly an improved LF155. I learned about it while looking for information about the LF parts. Not sure how old it is exactly.

J11 gate leakage is mirrored into each input pin and input currents are guaranteed <10nA over temperature.

Very interesting! I haven´t seen such a compensation yet.  :-+

Online David Hess

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #176 on: April 09, 2021, 01:48:02 am »
Funnily enough, they used to make JFET opamps with bias cancellation :wtf:

This is OP-15 from Precision Monolithics, supposedly an improved LF155. I learned about it while looking for information about the LF parts. Not sure how old it is exactly.

J11 gate leakage is mirrored into each input pin and input currents are guaranteed <10nA over temperature.

I have my PMI databook right here and I am sure I have noticed that before.  I wonder if PMI's JFETs were particularly leaky.
 

Online magic

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #177 on: June 14, 2021, 10:34:44 pm »
Anyone remember ICL8007, the early JFET opamp so bad that it needed drain bootstraping and common centroid layout and still was quite bad? Recently zeptobars found its low cost competitor from Analog: guaranteed <20mV offset in the best grade ;D

https://zeptobars.com/en/read/AD540-Analog-Devices-FET-opamp

Similar P-JFETs in source follower configuration and then NPN emitter followers driving drain bootstrap resistors and a two stage bipolar opamp where the real action happens.
 

Offline Noopy

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #178 on: June 15, 2021, 03:07:31 am »
Looks quite familiar!  :-+ ;D

Offline Noopy

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #179 on: June 18, 2021, 03:34:41 am »


ML709
Can anybody tell who manufactured these opamps?




We often have seen this 709 design. This one is again a little different but quite similar.




709 B? A second revision?




The process to built such an old semiconductor is easy to understand. It is similar to the process involved in the LM306 (https://www.richis-lab.de/Opamp09.htm).
Mask 1 builds the buried n+ structures that later are used to connect the collector of the transistors.
n epi forms a uniform n layer on top of the buried n+ structures.
Mask 2 forms trenches in the n epi that isolate the active areas against each other.
Mask 4 forms the (p doped) base areas of the npn transistors and the resistors. It looks like this mask worked reversed. The color of the 4 is a little greyish and this color is everywhere except on top of the base areas and the resistors.
Mask 5 forms the highly n doped emitter areas and the connectors to the buried n+ structures.
Mask 6 generates vias.
Mask 8 forms the metal layer.
Done!  8)


https://www.richis-lab.de/Opamp34.htm

 :-/O
 
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Online magic

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #180 on: June 18, 2021, 07:51:51 am »
Possibly these guys, same ML- part numbers and Roman date codes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroSystems_International

The MIL723 could have been from there too - wasn't it sent to you from Canada?
 

Offline Noopy

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #181 on: June 18, 2021, 08:40:22 am »
Sounds reasonable for both parts.  :-+

That´s interesting, you find some information about computer parts but I couldn´t find information about "normal" parts like the ML709.  :-//

Online magic

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #182 on: June 18, 2021, 09:02:59 am »
The company existed for five years in the 1970s so I am not very surprised that there is little information about it.

If you don't mind going to Canada, one museum has paper copies of their IC catalogues, including linear ;)
http://www.cse.yorku.ca/museum/collections/MIL/MIL.htm
 

Offline Noopy

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #183 on: June 18, 2021, 09:43:36 am »
Next vacation has to be in Canada!  :-+ ;D

Offline Noopy

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #184 on: August 19, 2021, 04:59:18 am »


I got an UA741 manufactured by Tungsram.
No, it´s not a tube opamp.  ;D






We have already seen this design. It´s the same as in the National Semiconductor LM741: https://www.richis-lab.de/Opamp23.htm


https://www.richis-lab.de/Opamp35.htm

 :-/O
 
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Online magic

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #185 on: August 19, 2021, 06:00:10 am »
Nice copy, even most test patterns are ripped off ;D

And you have posted wrong schematic. I have never seen a chip actually implementing the original Fairchild schematic and I'm starting to think that maybe the schematic was made up and no such chip ever existed. It wouldn't be the first time with Fairchild.

Most old 741 are implemented like this:
http://www.righto.com/2015/10/inside-ubiquitous-741-op-amp-circuits.html

And the Tungsram and National that you posted here follow the TI OP07 schematic.
Of course real OP07 are not like that, that's TI's FAIL :palm:

edit
You can see two old 741 opamps here, including supposedly Fairchild and supposedly one from 1972, but these people are biologists so I'm not sure if they can be fully trusted ;) They also have a µA709 and even µA702 so at least the parts are hopefully genuine. They say the chips are from their lab's stock of old spare parts for equipment, or at least that's what they said about the previous batch of ICs they posted.
https://resnicklab.wordpress.com/2013/05/14/meanwhile/
« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 06:16:18 am by magic »
 

Offline Noopy

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #186 on: August 19, 2021, 08:42:38 am »
Nice copy, even most test patterns are ripped off ;D

Perhaps they bought the dies or the process? In my view it´s too similar for a copy...  :-/O


And you have posted wrong schematic.

You told me that already a long time ago.  :-+ I have added a hint in the text under the first die. There is a link to the LH0042 where I have added "the other LM741 schematics.
...I should add a another hin under the schematic...


You can see two old 741 opamps here, including supposedly Fairchild and supposedly one from 1972, but these people are biologists so I'm not sure if they can be fully trusted ;) They also have a µA709 and even µA702 so at least the parts are hopefully genuine. They say the chips are from their lab's stock of old spare parts for equipment, or at least that's what they said about the previous batch of ICs they posted.
https://resnicklab.wordpress.com/2013/05/14/meanwhile/

 :-+

Offline dzseki

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #187 on: August 19, 2021, 10:15:49 am »
Nice copy, even most test patterns are ripped off ;D

Perhaps they bought the dies or the process? In my view it´s too similar for a copy...  :-/O


I had a colleague who worked in the Tungsram factory as IC architect. He told me that the common parts were simply reverse engineered.
HP 1720A scope with HP 1120A probe, EMG 12563 pulse generator, EMG 1257 function generator, MEV TR-1660C bench multimeter
 

Offline Noopy

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #188 on: August 19, 2021, 10:24:33 am »
Nice copy, even most test patterns are ripped off ;D

Perhaps they bought the dies or the process? In my view it´s too similar for a copy...  :-/O


I had a colleague who worked in the Tungsram factory as IC architect. He told me that the common parts were simply reverse engineered.

But this design ist really the same.

We have seen reverse engineering here:
https://www.richis-lab.de/prawez03.htm
https://www.richis-lab.de/prawez02.htm
vs.
https://www.richis-lab.de/apple.htm

and here:
https://www.richis-lab.de/REF02.htm
vs.
https://www.richis-lab.de/REF02a.htm

and here:
https://www.richis-lab.de/LM723_04.htm
vs.
https://www.richis-lab.de/LM723_05.htm

The design is always a little different.

 :-//

Online magic

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #189 on: August 19, 2021, 10:57:43 am »
There are differences. The 741W text on the right is missing, some test structures are missing, alignment of the borders of metal traces and silicon structures is a bit different in some places, ... ;)

You told me that already a long time ago.  :-+ I have added a hint in the text under the first die. There is a link to the LH0042 where I have added "the other LM741 schematics.
Found it. I guess I didn't scroll down far enough the first time.
But there is still a problem: the LM148 schematic doesn't show current mirror resistors.

BTW, there is apparently a Texas Instruments µA741 still in production and the schematic is the same as OP07. So that's where the wrong OP07 schematic came from, the only mystery is why and how :wtf:
https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ua741.pdf
 

Offline Noopy

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #190 on: August 19, 2021, 11:51:25 am »
There are differences. The 741W text on the right is missing, some test structures are missing, alignment of the borders of metal traces and silicon structures is a bit different in some places, ... ;)

Between the to 741 there are 8 years. In my view that changes are probably connected with changes in the production process or fabrication of a new mask due to deterioration.
Naturally I´m not 100% sure...


You told me that already a long time ago.  :-+ I have added a hint in the text under the first die. There is a link to the LH0042 where I have added "the other LM741 schematics.
Found it. I guess I didn't scroll down far enough the first time.
But there is still a problem: the LM148 schematic doesn't show current mirror resistors.

You are right the LM148 schematic doesn´t fit perfectly too.
I should sneak through the die and create a new schematic but I find it hard to read.  :-\

Online magic

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #191 on: August 19, 2021, 04:44:22 pm »
TI is a good starting point. Find three differences from the original ;D

The chip is not too hard to follow given a schematic. There is the input NPNs, mirror driver above them, the input PNPs next to them, the mirror next. Then the output PNP and the PNP VAS buffer (these PNPs have substrate collectors). Next is the output NPN and VCC.
The structures left of OUT and above VCC are resistors combined with current limiting transistors. Another trick is an NPN diode on top of one of the collectors of the split collector PNP. The rest shouldn't be rocket science.
 
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Online David Hess

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #192 on: August 19, 2021, 05:41:10 pm »
Published schematics almost always leave things out.  For instance they only very rarely show the various special transistor variations or pinch resistors.  As far as errors in schematics, I suspect sometimes they are deliberate.

I got an UA741 manufactured by Tungsram.

The packaging style and printing look like Fairchild of that era.
 

Offline Noopy

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #193 on: August 19, 2021, 05:46:38 pm »
The chip is not too hard to follow given a schematic.

In principle you are right but somehow I don´t like this die...  ;D


I got an UA741 manufactured by Tungsram.

The packaging style and printing look like Fairchild of that era.

Fairchild package look quite similar but here we have a T not a F. I have no open Fairchild 741 but the web tells us they had a different design.

Offline dzseki

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Re: Opamps - Die pictures
« Reply #194 on: August 19, 2021, 08:36:25 pm »
Quote
I got an UA741 manufactured by Tungsram.

The packaging style and printing look like Fairchild of that era.

Fairchild package look quite similar but here we have a T not a F. I have no open Fairchild 741 but the web tells us they had a different design.

I was told that when the IC production begun the base technology was licensed by Fairchild. In the early 80's the semiconductor division of Tungsram was rebranded as MEV, at that point the printing have also changed somewhat.
HP 1720A scope with HP 1120A probe, EMG 12563 pulse generator, EMG 1257 function generator, MEV TR-1660C bench multimeter
 
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