Author Topic: Open source SODIMM  (Read 4993 times)

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Online ali_asadzadehTopic starter

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Open source SODIMM
« on: April 11, 2021, 11:25:19 am »
Hi,
I want to know if we have open source DDR3, DDR4 desktop and laptop SODIMM designs, do you know any?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 06:30:39 pm by ali_asadzadeh »
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Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Open source SODIM
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2021, 02:51:48 pm »
Hoarder of 8-bit Commodore relics and 1960s Tektronix 500-series stuff. Unconventional interior decorator.
 
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Online ali_asadzadehTopic starter

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Re: Open source SODIM
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2021, 06:28:24 pm »
Thanks for the info, unfortunately they have only allegro *.brd file and I use altium, And altium needs allegro to be able to convert and open the files, :palm:

Also I want to know if we have ultra low cost Chinese DDR manufacturers? do you happen to know some? what brands for DRAM's do you suggest that have low prices?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 06:47:37 pm by ali_asadzadeh »
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Offline tooki

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Re: Open source SODIM
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2021, 06:34:46 pm »
Thanks for the info, unfortunately the they have only allegro *.brd file and I use altium, And altium needs allegro to be able to convert and open the files, :palm:
Altium’s how-to guide says this:

Quote
If an ASCII version is not available, you can download a free demo version of OrCAD which has extracta.exe, as part of the Cadence Allegro distribution. https://www.orcad.com/free-trial
 
Note that extracta.exe is tied to a valid Allegro license so when the trial expires you will no longer be able to import the *.brd file. Altium can import the Allegro ASCII *.alg file without having an installation of Allegro on your machine.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2021, 06:49:30 pm »
What's the point? No way it will be cheaper than off the shelf RAM.
 
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Online ali_asadzadehTopic starter

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2021, 07:09:22 pm »
Quote
Altium’s how-to guide says this:
I have found it and it needed exterext.exe which is installed with alleger, I do not have alleger, it's also in their free version too, so if any one has it and can upload it, I can give it a try to see if it can import the files into altium.

Quote
What's the point? No way it will be cheaper than off the shelf RAM.
The prices of SODIMM modules has increased, also I have found an investors, which he is willing to make 1K units of SODIMMs, so If I can find the Right parts with the right prices, Who knows, maybe He could do it cheaper and make profit.
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Offline wraper

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2021, 07:24:44 pm »
which he is willing to make 1K units of SODIMMs, so If I can find the Right parts with the right prices, Who knows, maybe He could do it cheaper and make profit.
Which is laughably low. These are a very thin margin products which need to be produced at huge quantities to make any sense. I would be really surprised if you manage buy just RAM ICs at the price of off the shelf modules sold in retail, not to say manufacture them.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 07:26:30 pm by wraper »
 

Offline amyk

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2021, 07:56:33 pm »
which he is willing to make 1K units of SODIMMs, so If I can find the Right parts with the right prices, Who knows, maybe He could do it cheaper and make profit.
Which is laughably low. These are a very thin margin products which need to be produced at huge quantities to make any sense. I would be really surprised if you manage buy just RAM ICs at the price of off the shelf modules sold in retail, not to say manufacture them.
That's probably also why the designs are "open source" - there's very little to gain from any secrecy since the layouts and functionality are already standard.

You may get cheaper if you use recycled parts, which is what a lot of stuff from Chinese sellers is. (I've not had any problems with some PC133 which was clearly used, and turned out to actually be rated up to 166.)
 
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Offline Syntax Error

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2021, 09:05:57 pm »
Reading around the subject, building a DDR SODimm is not the same as fabricating Arduino Nano clones. Even if their was a board design and firmware on Github, delivering the hardware requires a high level of expertise. That's expensive specialist digital and analog test equipment (bandwidths up to 5GHz), bit error stress testing and batch testing methodologies. Not to mention certifications from the OEM producers who consume the devices. Even leasing the equipment, your design and pre-production budget could burn $100,000 without a single sale.

+ As a tech guy, I only as a rule install DDR from Samsung, Kingston or Corsair, as these to me, are proven reliable devices from quality assured sources. Not some cheap unknown sticks from a Chinese ebay storefront.

An important point to understand for a budding digital entrepreneur is the raw DRAM chips are priced as a commodity. This means prices fluctuate, sometimes wildly. A 'spot price' can be sought for a production run happening in six months but, your investor will need to commit $$$$$s up front, either through a brokerage or escrow agent. Right now DRAM prices are higher due to high demand in the vehicle and consumer sectors and, the global covid shutdown slowing production. So really, you might want to think about your business case first.
https://uk.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-memory/store-memory-pricing

Good luck with your project.
 

Online langwadt

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2021, 09:18:05 pm »
Quote
Altium’s how-to guide says this:
I have found it and it needed exterext.exe which is installed with alleger, I do not have alleger, it's also in their free version too, so if any one has it and can upload it, I can give it a try to see if it can import the files into altium.

Quote
What's the point? No way it will be cheaper than off the shelf RAM.
The prices of SODIMM modules has increased, also I have found an investors, which he is willing to make 1K units of SODIMMs, so If I can find the Right parts with the right prices, Who knows, maybe He could do it cheaper and make profit.

he should invest in something with greater odds of success, like lottery tickets

 
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Online ali_asadzadehTopic starter

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2021, 05:40:31 am »
To make 1K SODIMM we need to buy 10K DDR parts, which is a good starting point.

Quote
Reading around the subject, building a DDR SODimm is not the same as fabricating Arduino Nano clones. Even if their was a board design and firmware on Github, delivering the hardware requires a high level of expertise. That's expensive specialist digital and analog test equipment (bandwidths up to 5GHz), bit error stress testing and batch testing methodologies. Not to mention certifications from the OEM producers who consume the devices. Even leasing the equipment, your design and pre-production budget could burn $100,000 without a single sale.

+ As a tech guy, I only as a rule install DDR from Samsung, Kingston or Corsair, as these to me, are proven reliable devices from quality assured sources. Not some cheap unknown sticks from a Chinese ebay storefront.

An important point to understand for a budding digital entrepreneur is the raw DRAM chips are priced as a commodity. This means prices fluctuate, sometimes wildly. A 'spot price' can be sought for a production run happening in six months but, your investor will need to commit
$s up front, either through a brokerage or escrow agent. Right now DRAM prices are higher due to high demand in the vehicle and consumer sectors and, the global covid shutdown slowing production. So really, you might want to think about your business case first.
https://uk.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-memory/store-memory-pricing

Good luck with your project.

Your points only cover 20% of customers, the rest 80% would prefer to buy something that would do their job with lower prices.
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Offline mvs

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2021, 09:18:36 am »
Also I want to know if we have ultra low cost Chinese DDR manufacturers? do you happen to know some? what brands for DRAM's do you suggest that have low prices?
DRAM market is an oligopoly with 3 suppliers: Samsung, Micron and SK Hynix.
Chinese companies do not have a required know how for DDR4 production with sufficient performance and yield, to be competitive to D3 group in any way.

To make 1K SODIMM we need to buy 10K DDR parts, which is a good starting point.
Go ahead, $50K is not that much money to loose.


PS do not forget, that you will also need following:
- high density multilayer PCBs with gold fingers, EEPROM chips, termination resistors and caps
- assembly service that can handle BGA chips
- test jig and test software for DRAM Modules (you need to determine correct SPD settings and write them into EEPROM)

PPS just to avoid possible confusion:
DRAM chips are usually marked in bits and not bytes. With eight 4Gb DRAM chips you can build one DRAM module with 4GB size.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 09:56:04 am by mvs »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2021, 11:53:15 am »
Quote
Altium’s how-to guide says this:
I have found it and it needed exterext.exe which is installed with alleger, I do not have alleger, it's also in their free version too, so if any one has it and can upload it, I can give it a try to see if it can import the files into altium.
|O |O
Read the how-to properly, man!
1. YOU can download and install the demo version of OrCAD.
2. Even the demo needs a license, so once the trial period is over (the how-to tells you this), it stops working. Thus copying the file won’t help you anyway.
 

Online coromonadalix

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2021, 02:24:39 pm »
for time related expiration softwares, i use vmware machines,  you have some trick on the net to stop the vmware "os" requesting time from the host machine ....  or deepfreeze machines ??

my 2 cents
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2021, 02:36:43 pm »
prefer to buy something that would do their job with lower prices.
Except you won't be able to provide that. Trying to compete with big guys at producing low margin commodity product at low quantities while using the same components is one of the dumbest business ideas ever.
 
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Offline Benta

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2021, 04:04:47 pm »
This thread is surreal.
Just the idea that you can make something cheaper (at 10k volume!) than companies producing millions of SODIMMs a month, while operating at gross margins of 3...5 per cent?
But OK, if you want to be poor it's your choice.

BTW: current price of SODIMM-200, 667 MHz is 5...6 US$/GB. Try to get the parts even at that price will be a major challenge. Scavenging SODIMMs from old PCs would probably be a better business, but Nigeria already has that cornered.


« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 04:07:57 pm by Benta »
 
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Offline Syntax Error

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2021, 04:21:25 pm »
ali, straight question: who is your customer?

Small margin sensitive OEM producers, IT managers, retailers, or budget gamers, for example. If you define clearly your target market, you'll be able to tailor your offering to their expectations of what perceived benefit your SODIMM brings to them, versus the competition.

If your customers expect cheap, they still will not accept poor quality. The 'value' range offerings from the likes of Corsair and Infineon, are still built from reliable chipsets with full quality assurance.
 

Online ali_asadzadehTopic starter

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2021, 08:14:21 pm »
Quote
BTW: current price of SODIMM-200, 667 MHz is 5...6 US$/GB. Try to get the parts even at that price will be a major challenge. Scavenging SODIMMs from old PCs would probably be a better business, but Nigeria already has that cornered.
You can sit and watch and say it can not be done, Until someone do it and you will say eventually it can be done ;D

We have also Chinese manufacturers, for the record, Winbond is one of them.

As you say a 4GB DDR3 is around 6*4  =24$
I think I can find 4Gb DDR3 parts around 1.5$ in 10K units, so I need 8*1.5 =12$ worth of DRAM, also the PCB, Passives and EEPROM is around 0.5$, and considering the assembly etc, it would at most take about 2$ too, so the production price is around 15$, it has around 9$ or 30% margin on only 1K modules! of course the higher density Modules and laptop modules with smaller PCB size, has higher margin.

PCB size and price calculations, for a 6 layer JOB, the PCB cost is around 0.375$ each



EEPROM price is around  $0.0596
https://lcsc.com/product-detail/EEPROM_LRC-LR24C32D_C411182.html

Decoupling caps 0.0007$ I need 100Units of each on PCB so it would be 0.07$
https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Multilayer-Ceramic-Capacitors-MLCC-SMD-SMT_CCTC-TCC0402X7R104K160AT_C392963.html

And of course I can not tell where I can get DDR3 for 1.5$ >:D
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Offline Pineapple Dan

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2021, 08:56:19 pm »
Better to make one SODIMM first and see how well it works. After that you can try making 1000s.
 

Offline ejeffrey

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2021, 09:20:08 pm »
As you say a 4GB DDR3 is around 6*4  =24$

Well, searching on amazon and newegg the price is more like $18-$20, so that cuts your margin estimate in half.  I can get a basic spec 4 GB SODIMM from amazon from a variety of no-name brands for $20 delivered.  $24 buys me Crucial name brand SODIMMS which is fine but if you want to get that price you have to make the argument why I should buy your memory instead of Crucial when I could get a no-name brand for less.

I mean, knock yourself out if you want to try, but DRAM chip manufacturing is already a hard way to earn a living.  Assembling commodity RAM modules from DRAM made by other companies has to be one of the lowest margin businesses in the electronics industry.
 

Offline Syntax Error

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2021, 09:23:06 pm »
I'm looking here on ebay at Samsung DDR3 4Gb SODIMM modules (8 chip) for the equivalent of $15 usd each retail. Unsoldering the chips works out at $1.88 each.

 

Offline wraper

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2021, 10:14:07 pm »
Well, searching on amazon and newegg the price is more like $18-$20, so that cuts your margin estimate in half.  I can get a basic spec 4 GB SODIMM from amazon from a variety of no-name brands for $20 delivered.  $24 buys me Crucial name brand SODIMMS which is fine but if you want to get that price you have to make the argument why I should buy your memory instead of Crucial when I could get a no-name brand for less.
And that's a retail price with sellers' expenses and profit included.
 

Offline mvs

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2021, 10:21:51 pm »
Is there any need for new DDR3 DIMMs nowadays? A transition from DDR3/DDR3L to DDR4 was back in 2015.
The market of used DDR3 DIMMs is saturated, prices are quite low.

With a typical hardware renewal cycle of around 5 years, big companies already have decomissioned many of their first DDR4 desktops, laptops and servers.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 10:25:41 pm by mvs »
 

Offline ejeffrey

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2021, 11:05:24 pm »
Well, searching on amazon and newegg the price is more like $18-$20, so that cuts your margin estimate in half.  I can get a basic spec 4 GB SODIMM from amazon from a variety of no-name brands for $20 delivered.  $24 buys me Crucial name brand SODIMMS which is fine but if you want to get that price you have to make the argument why I should buy your memory instead of Crucial when I could get a no-name brand for less.
And that's a retail price with sellers' expenses and profit included.

Information you can find publicly if you care:

https://sell.amazon.com/pricing.html#fulfillment-fees

Evidence would suggest that Amazon is a reasonable cost effective way to sell small volumes of goods to individual end users.  Whether you use them or not, the price structure is probably informative.  If you sell a pair of 4 GB RAM sticks at $40 and they qualify for "small and light" and you use fulfillment by amazon, they will charge 15% referral fee plus $2 fulfillment (warehousing, pack, and ship).  That amounts to $8.  If you produced them for $30, you net $2 to cover all of your own overhead costs.  Again, you don't have to use amazon, but doing that yourself costs money too.

You can reduce the cost of finding customers and fulfilling orders if you sell in bulk to a single customer such as a small volume system integrator. Presumably they are going to expect a discount over retail price.  Probably they will be looking for something on the order of 15% + $2, because these aren't deep economic secrets that only random EEVblog posters can figure out.

Now if you have some way of addressing a market that isn't well served by the current product lineup that would be a different situation.  Essentially that is why you have "gamer" products with over-styled heat spreaders and RGB bling.  They are just looking for ways to generate some product differentiation in a highly commoditized market.  If someone will pay $5 more on a a $100 purchase and your manufacturing costs only increase $.50 you can double your margin.  But as presented you just seem to be trying to undercut high volume low margin manufacturers on a commodity part.

Nobody doubts that you can technically do it, we just doubt it makes business sense.  All the information you need on the technical side is in the first couple responses.
 
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Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Open source SODIMM
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2021, 11:11:15 pm »
Converting allegro designs requires the extracta.exe executable but also some special magical text instruction files. I have them somewhere. I think either Altium or Cadence supplies them in any case. They're not that magical, just rarely used.
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