Author Topic: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.  (Read 19187 times)

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Offline iMo

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #100 on: January 13, 2020, 03:31:56 pm »
Digikey's or Mouser's $30 boutique price for an FPGA or an ADC (in US or EU) means in practice they buy for $5 in rather small quantities (like 1k). China is a different market - they mess with parts in millions quantities and they buy directly from manufacturers. It also could be the local distributors there are much less greedy than the other boutique shops.
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Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #101 on: January 13, 2020, 04:02:23 pm »
Digikey's or Mouser's $30 boutique price for an FPGA or an ADC (in US or EU) means in practice they buy for $5 in rather small quantities (like 1k).
Digikey/Mouser buy 1K for 5$/piece and sell for 30$ @1qty? I say BS unless you provide proof that I am wrong. Distributors do not work with such insane margins. HMCAD1511 mentioned here: AD list price 46$ @100, Digikey 55$ @100. You may get discount from AD sales, deal depends on you quarterly/yearly volume and your commitment. Shipments most likely will arrive from Digikey or Mouser anyway.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 04:04:08 pm by ogden »
 

Offline iMo

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #102 on: January 13, 2020, 04:17:54 pm »
"List price" means nothing. Everything else is subject to Contracts agreed between the parties and such agreements are usually Confidential :)
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Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #103 on: January 13, 2020, 04:22:01 pm »
"List price" means nothing. Everything else is subject to Contracts agreed between the parties and such agreements are usually Confidential :)
So what you said about pricing means the same: nothing.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #104 on: January 13, 2020, 04:29:38 pm »
Digikey's or Mouser's $30 boutique price for an FPGA or an ADC (in US or EU) means in practice they buy for $5 in rather small quantities (like 1k).
Digikey/Mouser buy 1K for 5$/piece and sell for 30$ @1qty? I say BS unless you provide proof that I am wrong. Distributors do not work with such insane margins. HMCAD1511 mentioned here: AD list price 46$ @100, Digikey 55$ @100. You may get discount from AD sales, deal depends on you quarterly/yearly volume and your commitment. Shipments most likely will arrive from Digikey or Mouser anyway.
I fully agree. My experience: Once you get into quantities (say >100 pieces) the prices from Digikey, Farnell, Mouser, etc are pretty much the same compared to buying parts from a distributor. The added value of Digikey, Farnell, Mouser, etc is that you can buy small quantities c.q. are not bound to MOQs. Ofcourse you pay a premium for that but who cares for just a few pieces. In some cases that does result in weird pricing. Last time I bought ty-raps from Farnell I ended up buying 1000 pieces because that was cheaper compared to buying 300.

When it comes to FPGAs pricing is even more muddy. You have to go to Xilinx with a project and they will give you a price. Recently I have been looking at Zync development boards and some boards are sold at prices below the single quantity prices on Digikey. Not sure what is going on here; maybe chips are sold at a loss to keep the competition away or they may be untested / rejects.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #105 on: January 13, 2020, 04:36:48 pm »
DK/Mouser can sell a chip at whatever price a big customer negotiated with Xilinx, which means they must get the chip at a cheaper price. The margin is insane.
No. You guys are inventing reality on the go :-DD Distributors do not buy for lowest possible price OEM can agree upon.
https://www.ebnonline.com/shedding-light-on-electronic-component-pricing/#
 
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Online magic

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #106 on: January 13, 2020, 04:44:03 pm »
Rumor has it that some manufacturers will ask different prices depending on the market you are from. They may sell cheaper in China to compete with Chinese alternatives and recoup it by asking more from those not willing to try Chinese alternatives.
 
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #107 on: January 13, 2020, 05:17:06 pm »
sorry gais your mass order hunt is moot from my eyes from wherever you can get them. lets say you can find a $1 1GSps ADC in 10K qty later on... who want to play R&D with 10x $100+ ADC? ADC081000CIYB (assuming its in stock) 10x128-LQFP in interleaved trick? thats just the ADC. and what DSO/RF TEA are you going to verify them with? i know some may have a brilliant idea of using the venerable ADC used in DS1054Z to get 10GSps from 40x overclocked 200MSps to 250MSps system... ADC08200CIMT it doesnt look too much saving by any stretch there, for the sole R&D purpose. and aligning 40 x 24-TSSOP is going to be more fun, esp the 40x interleaved signals. i'm sorry if it looks like an insult but i'm just giving my (bad) idea here, i'm trying to help with the least appearance damage to the end product, and the least moral and brain damage to the interested party. but luckily, i'm very bad at giving advice in this kind of field. maybe another (worst) advice is... ASIC ADCs? with biasing and adjustable attenuation built-in? :P ...  :scared:
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Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #108 on: January 13, 2020, 05:23:14 pm »
These proposals always end up discussing logistics of how to source cheap parts, and how to get a decent plastic case that doesn't look horrible and doesn't cost $10k for tooling.

As a Open Source type hobbyist, I wouldn't mind paying for a "some assembly required" kit, but quite obviously I would expect to save some money vs say a Rigol DS1054.

If you are talking about a commercial quality scope in a nice box that engineers at SMEs would buy, you are talking about a startup company attempting to compete with low cost Chinese suppliers, which has no hope in hell. Also, the idea that an Open Source ASIC would enable companies to create low cost scopes, that is rather fanciful.

Anyway the two questions I would try to answer:

1) Can I make anything for $200, that would be better/cheaper than a commercial scope? (Ready to use in a box, excluding markup and shipping).

2) How much would it cost to make a decent entry level scope electronics that anyone would buy, even if just to say they have an Open Source scope?

There was a reference earlier to Open Logic Sniffer, that project is dead/closed, probably killed by the $5 Saleae logic clones.
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Online nctnico

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #109 on: January 13, 2020, 05:38:45 pm »
These proposals always end up discussing logistics of how to source cheap parts, and how to get a decent plastic case that doesn't look horrible and doesn't cost $10k for tooling.
True. Part costs are completely irrelevant at this point as the engineering effort in the software dwarfs any effort needed for the hardware. A project starting with looking for the cheapest parts never ends well (or never ends at all).

Quote
As a Open Source type hobbyist, I wouldn't mind paying for a "some assembly required" kit, but quite obviously I would expect to save some money vs say a Rigol DS1054.
I don't think an open source project should aim to compete with low cost equipment. The advantage should be in having an open software platform which people (companies) can extend and build upon. FPGAs fit much better in such an approach than a fixed function ASIC.

One of the big features missing from oscilloscopes is the ability to extend the features by writing plug-in modules. Nowadays every manufacturer is implementing the same feature from scratch. That is just idiotic and a complete waste of time.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 05:40:21 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #110 on: January 13, 2020, 06:06:29 pm »
When it comes to FPGAs pricing is even more muddy. You have to go to Xilinx with a project and they will give you a price.
Right. FPGA (and fast ADC's) of your choice may fall under export control restrictions as well.  That's why they want to know more about your product and to whom /where you will be selling it.

Quote
Recently I have been looking at Zync development boards and some boards are sold at prices below the single quantity prices on Digikey. Not sure what is going on here;
Manufacturers often sell devboards (including their BOM) at zero profit or even below that. Prices for older chips tend to increase rapidly. Hobbyist looking for LQFP FPGA that were introduced 5 years ago, may get wrong impression about FPGA pricing. (example that may not be your case)
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #111 on: January 13, 2020, 07:09:55 pm »
Don't forget that DK/Mouser/etc. have a default catalog price, which is basically your optimistic "thanks for looking!" price.  As mentioned, they participate in sales and supply contracts just as much as anyone, and that is where you can negotiate better prices.

My one example: a modest (80MSps 12b 2ch) ADC by National, we were considering improving.  Via FAE, we picked an ADI part with twice as many channels and a fraction of the total operating power (1.8 vs. 3.3V, among other improvements), and they offered it for a lower per-part cost at the quantities we proposed.  So, they improved on BOM cost alone, but also offered considerable economy with the bigger and better-performing part.  The manufacturer in turn negotiated with Digikey, who quoted the price to us.

It's also my understanding that DK is very competitive in passives, when you're buying them in boxes or pallets at a time (i.e., millions of units).  Not much of an economy the home gamer can take advantage of, but it shows they're not all about your top dollar.

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Online tautech

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #112 on: January 13, 2020, 07:41:49 pm »
I've unlocked this thread because I think it's hugely interesting, please play nice.
Thanks Dave, yes it is interesting yet it might seem the OP has yet to get a full perspective on what's already in the marketplace.
Any new ASIC will need to be positioned for the upper end of mid-range products such is the capability of existing off the shelf solutions currently available. Only then the economies are likely to offer a ROI.
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Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #113 on: January 13, 2020, 08:15:18 pm »
I don't think an open source project should aim to compete with low cost equipment.
Low end market is only chance for hobby/startup/Kickstarter projects because buyers of hi-end/expensive stuff would not risk to source their equipment from nonreliable sources, not to mention Kickstarter :) They would pay 2x price or more just to be assured that product or it's support will not suddenly disappear one day. After years when you are big fat and famous - then you can look for hi-end market. Hoping to be successful in hi-end from day one - forget it.

Quote
The advantage should be in having an open software platform which people (companies) can extend and build upon. FPGAs fit much better in such an approach than a fixed function ASIC.
Could not agree more. You pretty much nailed it.
 

Offline iMo

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #114 on: January 13, 2020, 09:02:41 pm »
If I were for example Rigol I would offer to the EEVBLOG community an "empty" 1054Z, or 2072A for the production costs + shipping. No fw, no warranties, no support, just naked (hw without fw) box with a schematics. And you may play with it as you wish.
1054ZN $100 + shipping
2072AN $200 + shipping
What would be the response of the community? Will you buy it?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 09:17:43 pm by imo »
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Online nctnico

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #115 on: January 13, 2020, 09:40:54 pm »
I don't think an open source project should aim to compete with low cost equipment.
Low end market is only chance for hobby/startup/Kickstarter projects because buyers of hi-end/expensive stuff would not risk to source their equipment from nonreliable sources, not to mention Kickstarter :) They would pay 2x price or more just to be assured that product or it's support will not suddenly disappear one day. After years when you are big fat and famous - then you can look for hi-end market. Hoping to be successful in hi-end from day one - forget it.
I wouldn't say that too quickly. It just takes offering something which isn't in the market. Extendability is one example.

Another example: CERN has developed a time synchronisation protocol + open source hardware. This is pretty much a niche application but it is gaining traction in the market and nowadays there are several commercial companies offering solutions around it. Actually, having an oscilloscope platform which could support this timing protocol would be very interesting. Think about being able to do fully synchronous measurements with a long distance in between.
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Online thm_w

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #116 on: January 13, 2020, 11:36:48 pm »
If I were for example Rigol I would offer to the EEVBLOG community an "empty" 1054Z, or 2072A for the production costs + shipping. No fw, no warranties, no support, just naked (hw without fw) box with a schematics. And you may play with it as you wish.
1054ZN $100 + shipping
2072AN $200 + shipping
What would be the response of the community? Will you buy it?

Doesn't make sense because:
- The firmware cost to them is essentially $0 at this point. Maybe some cents of production time to load it.
- Support is minimal, probably under 5% of the cost ($20 off retail price). Its also a legal requirement in a number of countries.
- Market is too small.
- People might hack it and figure out how to load the existing FW, meaning you are competing with your own products.
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Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #117 on: January 13, 2020, 11:44:09 pm »
I wouldn't say that too quickly. It just takes offering something which isn't in the market. Extendability is one example.
Without demand it does matter - there is something in the market or not. I think basics including serial decode are pretty much covered in the modern lo-end scopes (Rigol 1000z series and alike), business buyers usually are looking for one-stop shopping of everything - hardware and addons (like signal/jitter/eye analysis and so on). As it was said in another already dried out open source scope thread - I want to debug just my circuit using scope that do not need debugging itself.

Quote
Another example: CERN has developed a time synchronisation protocol + open source hardware.
Bad example. CERN is THE biggest science projects on Earth, far beyond "fat and famous" (2500 staff, ~12000 contributing scientists).
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #118 on: January 14, 2020, 12:11:44 am »
I wouldn't say that too quickly. It just takes offering something which isn't in the market. Extendability is one example.
Without demand it does matter - there is something in the market or not. I think basics including serial decode are pretty much covered in the modern lo-end scopes (Rigol 1000z series and alike), business buyers usually are looking for one-stop shopping of everything - hardware and addons (like signal/jitter/eye analysis and so on). As it was said in another already dried out open source scope thread - I want to debug just my circuit using scope that do not need debugging itself.
Nobody said you need to do any debugging before you can use the oscilloscope. The base functionality should all be there in order to create momentum. However, if you need extra functionality you can create it. It is more or less the same with any piece of open-source software. 99.9% of the people will use it as-is and the remaining 0.1% will add extra functionality to it. Nothing wrong with that.

IMHO it would be interesting to start a Kickstarter to raise money to get basic oscilloscope firmware (software + FPGA) development going by hiring a bunch of software engineers and getting a few Zync FPGA development boards.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 12:14:44 am by nctnico »
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Offline OwO

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #119 on: January 14, 2020, 03:16:24 am »
True. Part costs are completely irrelevant at this point as the engineering effort in the software dwarfs any effort needed for the hardware. A project starting with looking for the cheapest parts never ends well (or never ends at all).
I don't know why you keep saying parts cost aren't important, but in projects like these with one of the most cost sensitive market you can imagine (hobbyists), parts costs literally make or break a product. Look at an example, the NanoVNA. Basic math shows it's worth spending ONE ENGINEER YEAR to save $1 USD of BOM cost, with payback being just over one year. Yes, every dollar you save on the BOM pays for one full time engineer who can then bring far more value to the product.
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Offline OwO

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #120 on: January 14, 2020, 03:24:47 am »
As someone who's worked closely with small corporations that are actually selling to hobbyists, I can say from observation that there is a single absolutely most important thing that the market cares about, which is bang for buck. An example to look at is the FNIRSI-5012H. Even with absolutely shit software people still keep buying it, and someone on this forum is even working on replacement firmware for it, completely on his own dime! Now imagine if it came with primitive but open source software, people would be on it even faster. In the end value/price is what matters.
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Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #121 on: January 14, 2020, 03:50:50 am »
In the end value/price is what matters.
Sure. How do you define value of the scope? Just number of oscilloscopes per buck or what? If we take in account: scope bandwidth, number of channels, ease of use, physical controls, software, gui, screen size, safety and so on, most likely winner will be some low-end Owon, Rigol or alike. As we already (hopefully) agreed, open source/crowdfunding approach can't compete in this league.
 

Offline OwO

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #122 on: January 14, 2020, 04:04:58 am »
The OP's intent is offering more raw performance per buck, so mainly bandwidth, analog performance, sample memory, trigger POI, etc. That or offer DS1054Z level data acquisition functionality for less than $100. I think these are all doable. I have some basic idea of what kind of ADC prices you can get in volume and am already starting negotiations. But it's still up to our parent company whether they want to take the risk on a new product like this.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 04:06:41 am by OwO »
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Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #123 on: January 14, 2020, 04:38:24 am »
The OP's intent is offering more raw performance per buck, so mainly bandwidth, analog performance, sample memory, trigger POI, etc. That or offer DS1054Z level data acquisition functionality for less than $100. I think these are all doable.
100$? Are you sure? :)

If result is Zynq FPGA + >=500Msps ADC + >=2 100MHz channels + I/O similar to rPI (Ethernet, USB, HDMI, parallel LCD) with basic scope software that supports variable screen resolutions, I'm in with my 100$ even if LCD is not supplied. Price point of ScopeFun IMHO is fail for hobby market, yet they somehow got enough backers. You never know  :-//

[edit0] For extra 50$ "advanced version" with buffered 16x logic input and 1x 50 Ohm + PGA/Attenuator for "mixed signal" and direct RF sampling SDR and Spectrum Analyzer functionality. - It may go like hot cakes then.

[edit1] Forgot to mention that it must run Linux - for better acceptance from open source community. With Linux you may get some "other customers" - because it can be used as low cost sampler as well.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 05:02:24 am by ogden »
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #124 on: January 14, 2020, 06:04:32 am »
There are also virtually no scopes that use a single SoC solution for the whole thing.  You get the ADC, the memory controller/triggering, the sample memory, and then the SoC running the display and stuff.  We've got good availability on SoCs for the application software, ADCs (to some degree), and memory.... so it's the triggering/channel timing/memory controller ASIC that's the real missing link in my mind.

Most modern DSOs implement triggering digitally after the digitizer in parallel with the memory controller essentially making it free.  The only reason to include a dedicated trigger circuit is to support equivalent time sampling.

4. Equally important is analog frontend. That's the difference between a good scope and a cheap scope. With the same ADC, an R&S scope is quieter than a Rigol, here's the difference. Quoting from PicoScope, some scopes are built down to a cost, ours are built up to a spec.

Do you mean Picotech?  If so that is funny coming from them when they use integrated CMOS broadband preamplifiers from TI with 1000 nV/SqrtHz noise.

3. What I see that makes the difference between commodity and high end is input sample and hold chip. With a good S/H chip, you can get tens of GHz of BW using sampling scope technology, or massive array of 1Gsps ADCs to achieve realtime. This is the secret sauce part of mainstream players.

lets forget sampling scope which can be done with KSps or MSps ADC at tens of GHz BW, its different beast people have done it at cheap.

I disagree.  It will be very difficult to compete on performance but modern DSOs are missing a lot of useful features which would be cheap to add besides a sane user interface which does not make me want to puke.

1. Real time network analysis, not just sweeping a sine wave while you get coffee, should be included if a waveform generator is included.  Check out Cleverscope and the market they cater to.  Is a magnitude/phase FFT and noise marker too much to ask?  Apparently it is.

2. If separate trigger hardware is included for equivalent time sampling, then it is a small addition to add true sampling capability with a separate auxiliary 50 ohm input.  Or if digital triggering is used, the digitizer can be used as part of a centroid timing or transition midpoint timing time delay counter for picosecond resolution.  A 100 or 200 MHz DSO would be greatly enhanced with low performance 4 to 8 GHz *random* sampling capability.

AFE for high end (50 ohm) scope is quite simple, i guess anyone can do with a free EM simulator and proper PCB materials... but once the signal goes into the ADC/DSP/ASIC/whatever it is, thats where the massive array of money is... there are few of them, from ADC/AFE to DSP/ASIC to RAM down the line, those the unobtaniums...

The low impedance part of the signal path is much easier than the high impedance part because the later requires a good substrate which does not suffer from excessive hook.  This is why you find high quality oscilloscopes with plastic substrates for the high impedance attenuators and modern DSOs and high voltage differential probes with bad transient response after a couple years because the FR4 substrate they used absorbed water.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 06:08:08 am by David Hess »
 


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