Author Topic: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.  (Read 19175 times)

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Online nctnico

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #150 on: January 14, 2020, 08:19:12 pm »
Literally anything you can do on an FPGA can be done on an ASIC only faster because no switching. You have high up front costs but after the chip is done. EVERYTHING becomes cheaper, faster, easier, more efficient. That is the point of an ASIC it is a F1 car compared to a Porsche. Yes an FPGA has advantages but those are exactly the problems this project would be solving; the high up front investment cost.
Your analogy is quite good. With a Porsche you can go everywhere and take people and/or luggage with you. An F1 car in contrast does 1 thing great but sucks at everything else. Probably 90% of the oscilloscopes sold nowadays are FPGA based and for a good reason.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #151 on: January 14, 2020, 09:54:26 pm »
A DSO has different parts that are hard to integrate into a single ASIC as they need different processes: Input amplifier, ADC, Memory and control / logic. The Rigol MSO5000 has thus 2 types of custom chips.

For the ASIC to FPGA comparison one has to keep in mind that FPGA tend to use state of the art processes very early, as the structure is simple and just repeats a lot of times. An ASIC for the logic part of a scope on the other side is more complicated and usually would be used over a long time. So it would be more like a well matured process (e.g. some 5 years behind in development)  and thus lower performance transistors. So the advantage is not that clear and may only be for a short time. Modern FPGAs may also have optimized memory interfaces and may be ahead of an ASIC there, unless you could compete with the big guys.

There is quite some competition in the scope market. So it would be hard to do a new start here.
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #152 on: January 14, 2020, 10:07:48 pm »
There is quite some competition in the scope market. So it would be hard to do a new start here.
Right. Manufacturing scope ASICs w/o any demand from market is risky business. Better drop idea of scope ASIC. If it is so easy to make scope ASIC then OP can make "just ADC" part of it, something like 1/2 cost HMCAD1520 and put Analog Devices out of business.
 

Offline excitedboxTopic starter

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #153 on: January 14, 2020, 10:17:51 pm »
If you read, triggering would also be on the ASIC so you wouldn´t miss anything. EVERYTHING to do with the signal is done on the ASIC. The only thing done on the CPU is display the data and interface same as every Oscilloscope. Why did I bother writing it and including pictures. If you can´t understand a basic sketch I really can´t help you

Why do the 2 of you insist on arguing about something you seem to not understand and have no interest in learning. This does EVERYTHING EXACTLY the same as an FPGA does concerning the signal. The ONLY thing changed is how you display the signal. Once the signal is captured to memory it doesn´t matter how slow you are in retrieving the data. I don´t know how many times I can explain the same thing to someone that doesn´t want to understand. The reason Oscilloscopes are made on FPGAs today is because of the cost of developing the chip. You have to invest money in developing a chip which is expensive and that is the only reason anyone uses them. It makes sense for small volume or if you don´t have the resources to finance developing a chip.

Imagine if in the early days of transistors people said everything is made with vacuum tubes today how can it be better to use a transistor. It is like the People don´t want broadband internet argument.

What kind of reality do you live in? Earlier you claimed digikey doesn´t have big margins on single quantities when you can see the price difference for 1 and 10,000 on many items and on something like a capacitor or usb connector you can see that buying 10k saves you 99% on some items. A resistor costs like 10 cents and 10k resistors it costs 1/10th of a cent. That is a 1000% difference. Of course they make huge margins on the parts because packaging on 1 or 100 costs the same and literally cost 10 times as much as the item.



Kleinstein You are right that some parts are hard to put on the same chip due to interference but that can and has been designed around and they can be moved off chip if need be. Those things that need to be close together for the benefit of saving money can mostly go on 1 chip.

The 130nm process is being used by CERN to make 20GSPS ADCs and is used on particle accelerators. an ASIC is not nearly as complex as an FPGA. An FPGA has to maintain signal quality and low noise while going all kinds of detours due to switching and cope with noise due to all those transistors. keep in mind silicon is not copper and every transistor is a jump from copper to silicon back to copper. Yes it conducts under the right conditions, but not nearly as well. Those FPGAs are not on the newest processes and in most cases an older process doesn´t make a difference like you think it does. It offers lower power consumption which you get much more of a boost from ASIC.

Just go read about this stuff you don´t need me to explain it to you. If you look at the link of the comparison I posted above you would see that your argument is not the case.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #154 on: January 14, 2020, 10:40:21 pm »
Why do the 2 of you insist on arguing about something you seem to not understand and have no interest in learning.
LOL :) Year ago you were just PHP developer, now you **ck off professionals who have decade(s) of experience in electronics. You have much to learn kid.

* howz your PCB printer project going? No posts about it for some time.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 10:47:58 pm by ogden »
 
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #155 on: January 14, 2020, 11:16:21 pm »
The low impedance part of the signal path is much easier than the high impedance part because the later requires a good substrate which does not suffer from excessive hook.  This is why you find high quality oscilloscopes with plastic substrates for the high impedance attenuators and modern DSOs and high voltage differential probes with bad transient response after a couple years because the FR4 substrate they used absorbed water.

lecroy 50 ohm scope has add-on adapter called AP-1M, to provide high impedance measurement, you can search eevblog i posted the internal of it, but only to few hundreds MHz BW. for GHz BW high impedance? :scared: i never seen one and not have a plan to even think about it. otherwise, i will have a very serious time (and probably financial) damage into it. but i think whats the point of trying hard to design HBW HiZ circuit when we can have or design active probe or such an AP-1M adapter in the next project phase?

the AP-1M doesnt have special ASIC nor fancy ICs, only BJT/FET discreetes, but LeCroy charge them like K$, its like nuts when thinking about it. but when think further, they probably need to gather $ from surrounding ecosystem that they have introduced, to cope with ASIC damaged they experienced on the DSO side. this is i guess how they keep going..

LeCroy is not the only one to make something like that for converting a 50 ohm input to a high impedance input suitable for high impedance passive probes.  They are also built for RF test gear like spectrum analyzers and network analyzers.  Internally an oscilloscope with high impedance inputs has the buffer like you describe built in.

High impedance active probes perform the same function as the high impedance buffer at the input of an oscilloscope with 1 megohm inputs.  Both buffer a high input impedance to drive a low impedance which is typically 50 ohms.  The difference is that the input fixture of the oscilloscope limits how low the input capacitance can be which limits bandwidth so typically 500 MHz is about the maximum while an active probe with much lower input capacitance can provide several GHz of bandwidth.  I think HP/Agilent/Keysight made some oscilloscopes with extra low input capacitance which were 700 MHz or 1 GHz?

There is also another trade-off with bandwidth.  Higher frequency JFETs and MOSFETs which have lower input capacitance have both higher flicker noise and higher broadband noise.  So achieving a low noise high impedance front end conflicts with high bandwidth.  This can be seen in older specialized oscilloscopes which had like 1 or 5 MHz of bandwidth and higher input capacitance, like 47 picofarads, but usable sensitivity down to 10s or 100s of microvolts per division.  Even lower noise high impedance front ends found in lower frequency instruments can have 100s of picofarads of input capacitance.

I don't see why you need field programmable logic, they are just a convenient way of connecting ADCs to memory when you use COTS ICs. For a digitizer ASIC just connect the ADC to the memory with fixed function logic, no FPGA needed ... just a license for a DDR3/4 macro or a couple thousand more expert man hours.

An FPGA is actually a pretty convenient way to interface a fast digitizer to bulk memory but there are other needed functions between the digitizer and memory like:

1. Decimation to adjust the sample rate.  The sampling clock is almost always fixed for performance reasons so decimation is used instead.
2. Digital triggering if used.
3. Acquisition modes like peak detection and high resolution.
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #156 on: January 14, 2020, 11:34:41 pm »
An FPGA is actually a pretty convenient way to interface a fast digitizer to bulk memory but there are other needed functions
Yes indeed. FPGA gives flexibility. It is said million times here already - that hobbyists, "tinkerers" and open source community do not need fixed solutions like ASICs, they need something THEY can change & improve. This is what rephrasing OP's words, he seem to not understand and have no interest in learning.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #157 on: January 14, 2020, 11:59:07 pm »
That is the point of an ASIC it is a F1 car compared to a Porsche.
most members here knows this basic fact, even i who have zero FPGA/ASIC experience. some of them cook FPGA for their life. so are you basically asking backers to pay for F1 cost? or how much fraction from it? good luck asking for Porche cost. once your "module" is completed and shipped to backers, then what? what they have to add to the module to make it a usefull scope? 10GSps ADC as we've worked out the cost and source for you earlier? or the ADC is implemented in your project too, as odgen hinted, you have a bright future to take down some of the big names if so. we have a hope and you are our hope, good luck!

Year ago you...
comparing between PHP and VHDL which one is the F1 and which one is the Porche? just a side joke to release some tension.

i was just as enthusiastic, built my own FG because i dont like the taste and price of existing FG/AWG. built a crap grade Arduino Logic Analyzer, and it just went poof when i got a $10 knock off salaea LA, now with a $100 Uni-T AWG bought, i can put my diy FG at rest. i asked in forum how to deal with GSps memory pipelining, and thats it, i never continue further when thinking i maybe just wasting time and money buying wrong (expensive) parts by mistake that i have no clue about. thankfully my day and part time job have struggled enough to reward me with some old high end gears, one member are also nice enough to donate me one of them as well, so the crave for enthusiasm settled down a little bit. i still have this funny idea for GHz SA and VNA man :phew: there are more to tell about the dream but i dont feel like typing it all, i may just wasting my time here, simply short... it was the time.. i should concentrate on building my dream printer or CNC machine, because they are 5 digit price (with proper spec) and there is very slim hope that someone will come up with cheap knocked down alternative. or maybe i just keep working hard and just buy them off the shelf when i have enough money :-// we always trade time with money but if i have money i will save time. yeah, sometime its chicken and egg problem. <end of useless mumbling>
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 12:04:02 am by Mechatrommer »
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Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #158 on: January 14, 2020, 11:59:38 pm »
Might be worth mentioning https://chips4makers.io/ at this point.

Quote
The Chips4Makers wants to make it possible for makers and hobbyists to make their own open source chips.

Chips4Makers Beta

Currently the Retro-uC pilot project is being developed and being planned to be taped-out mid next year. Together with that design also some first customer chips could be produced.

If you have an open source digital (FPGA) design and envision turning it into your own chip, you may contact us. The program is currently under beta meaning that the toolchain is under heavy development and help and support from your side may be needed to get it up to shape for your design. Also the tape-out date is not known yet and no guarantees can be given that your design will be on that tape-out. Also due to the use of mature process technologies there are restrictions on performance and size of the design.
A custom (analog) design can also be discussed if the designer is prepared to take the risk of non-functional silicon.
Bob
"All you said is just a bunch of opinions."
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #159 on: January 15, 2020, 12:43:11 am »
Might be worth mentioning https://chips4makers.io/ at this point.
Very good resource to learn from. They started project with good intentions in 31jan 2018 or even before that. Where are they now? - Nowhere. Still nothing, no ASIC. That is about digital ASIC which could be copy-pasted from VHDL/Verilog of FPGA if properly designed from beginning.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 12:47:30 am by ogden »
 

Offline excitedboxTopic starter

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #160 on: January 15, 2020, 01:01:21 am »
You can still use an FPGA instead of a SOC for post processing if that fits better. Keysight did that in the megazoom. Although I think these days there are so many SOCs out there for media centers and such from manufacturers like Media Tek that it should be possible to find something with enough processing power for cheaper.

It really depends if you need hardware decimation though. You could really do that in DSP too. The point of the DSP is really to do any processing to the signal and save it to memory. Including deciding what needs to be saved. I listed hardware triggering and the trade offs between purely digital and a mix of hardware and digital will need to be discussed more when there is more solid information.

I am almost done a write up of the whole project along with about 20 questions for manufacturers to get a better idea of what they would like to see. They are after all the experts.

The "backers" shouldn´t have to carry a big burden. I am hoping that we can get the manufacturers, sponsors (like the EU and corporations), partners to split the costs for development. There are over 40 of them right now that have nothing over 500MHz. I am thinking the kickstarter will mainly be to make a small percentage profit on the chips in order to produce enough extras to pay for a couple wafers to sell after and sustain future production. Once the masks are made future costs will be quite low in comparison. I am would hope to raise 50-75k. If there even is a kickstarter the risk would be low with the design done and tested. And wait around 4 months.


PHP is just hell  :-DD 15 years as PHP dev will make you hate what it has become.



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Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #161 on: January 15, 2020, 01:14:59 am »
I just silenced Ogden I am done letting some little kid bother me.
Thank you for notice. It means I can stop wasting my time here and talk to people who actually listen.

No comments, just hints for potential investors:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/multi-layer-dual-sided-pcb-printer/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/ai-circuit-design-experiment-programing-the-meat-of-a-component-sandwich/
 
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Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #162 on: January 15, 2020, 01:42:56 am »
I just silenced Ogden I am done letting some little kid bother me.
Thank you for notice. It means I can stop wasting my time here and talk to people who actually listen.

No comments, just hints for potential investors:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/multi-layer-dual-sided-pcb-printer/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/ai-circuit-design-experiment-programing-the-meat-of-a-component-sandwich/

Well that is good news; when he settles on a design he'll get the best price for the parts before 3D printing the PCB.

Boy am I glad I live in the future.
Hoarder of 8-bit Commodore relics and 1960s Tektronix 500-series stuff. Unconventional interior decorator.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #163 on: January 15, 2020, 04:00:39 am »
Just show or even brag what is the current progress, even its still really crude at early stage, instead of just ... talk.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Online Someone

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #164 on: January 15, 2020, 05:58:14 am »
Since the OP appears completely out of their depth and unfamiliar with the processing integrated in mid range scopes, attached is the system diagram from Rigol showing their UltraVision II platform:
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #165 on: January 15, 2020, 08:54:40 am »
I just silenced Ogden I am done letting some little kid bother me.
Thank you for notice. It means I can stop wasting my time here and talk to people who actually listen.

No comments, just hints for potential investors:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/multi-layer-dual-sided-pcb-printer/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/ai-circuit-design-experiment-programing-the-meat-of-a-component-sandwich/

Well that is good news; when he settles on a design he'll get the best price for the parts before 3D printing the PCB.
Maybe he can 3D print the ASICs too!  >:D
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #166 on: January 15, 2020, 09:06:25 am »
If you read, triggering would also be on the ASIC so you wouldn´t miss anything. EVERYTHING to do with the signal is done on the ASIC. The only thing done on the CPU is display the data and interface same as every Oscilloscope. Why did I bother writing it and including pictures. If you can´t understand a basic sketch I really can´t help you

Pro tip 1: you don't even understand what those people are talking to you about
Pro tip 2: and it is not because they are babbling nonsense :P

Pro tip 3: watch some reviews of scopes or read the T&M subforum to first understand what people expect from the final product
Pro tip 4: even if you think opinions of reviewers and other Internet oracles are wrong, their opinions still affect your marketability
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #167 on: January 15, 2020, 10:57:51 am »
I'm still wondering if it would make sense to start a Kickstarter for an open source oscilloscope software framework (without going into a detailed discussion on what kind of acquisition hardware should or shouldn't be used).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #168 on: January 15, 2020, 11:20:09 am »
I'm still wondering if it would make sense to start a Kickstarter for an open source oscilloscope software framework (without going into a detailed discussion on what kind of acquisition hardware should or shouldn't be used).
"Oscilloscope software framework" is way too vague goal. Definition of target hardware list/options will greatly help to get support from backers. BTW Sigrok is halfway there. Would be shame to not use at least partial code of it. For instance Sigrok community implemented quite enough protocol decoders...
[edit] For me open questions are: 1) Linux or lightweight RTOS 2) broad connectivity (Ethernet, USB, HDMI, parallel LCD) or not. Clear benefit of Linux: hardware & I/O support.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 11:29:53 am by ogden »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #169 on: January 15, 2020, 11:38:40 am »
Linux platform for sure. Ethernet, USB and parallel / LVDS TFT interface for sure. Beyond that it starts to become hardware specific.
There are basically two ways to go: use a Xilinx Zync to have an all-in-one solution or use an FPGA + SoC. What I like about a SoC solution is -that if it has a GPU- it will be much easier to extend the functionality using OpenCL rather then needing FPGA development work for decoders & math. I have not looked deeply into OpenCL yet but it at least has a C-ish syntax. In theory you could implement a form of OpenCL scripting for signal post-processing at very high speeds.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #170 on: January 15, 2020, 12:09:14 pm »
Linux platform for sure.
Good.

Quote
There are basically two ways to go: use a Xilinx Zync to have an all-in-one solution or use an FPGA + SoC.
I'm afraid that strict "Zynq only" platform limit will be discouraging. Would be nice to cover everything - from rPI-connected USB scopes (or even SPI ADC), cheap Spartan3+40Msps_ADC+some_ARM till hi-performance Zynq with all the bells and whistles. I think with careful system & HAL design/layering it could be achievable.

 

Offline unitedatoms

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #171 on: January 15, 2020, 01:14:27 pm »
I'm still wondering if it would make sense to start a Kickstarter for an open source oscilloscope software framework (without going into a detailed discussion on what kind of acquisition hardware should or shouldn't be used).

I think Kickstarter the company has rules against any software projects.
Interested in all design related projects no matter how simple, or complicated, slow going or fast, failures or successes
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #172 on: January 15, 2020, 01:42:38 pm »
If you read, triggering would also be on the ASIC so you wouldn´t miss anything. EVERYTHING to do with the signal is done on the ASIC. The only thing done on the CPU is display the data and interface same as every Oscilloscope.

Then you are already a step behind Keysight's almost 10 year old ASIC used in their entry level scopes, the ASIC does the screen plotting:

 

Online nctnico

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #173 on: January 15, 2020, 02:17:56 pm »
I'm still wondering if it would make sense to start a Kickstarter for an open source oscilloscope software framework (without going into a detailed discussion on what kind of acquisition hardware should or shouldn't be used).
I think Kickstarter the company has rules against any software projects.
Thanks for noting that. There is always the option for a reference hardware platform or use a different crowd funding platform. The plan -if there is any- hasn't gotten to that point yet but it is something to keep in mind.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 02:21:21 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #174 on: January 16, 2020, 12:58:48 am »
I'm still wondering if it would make sense to start a Kickstarter for an open source oscilloscope software framework (without going into a detailed discussion on what kind of acquisition hardware should or shouldn't be used).

I think Kickstarter the company has rules against any software projects.
Really? https://www.kickstarter.com/discover/advanced?category_id=51&sort=popularity&seed=2631893&page=1
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 01:01:23 am by wraper »
 


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