Author Topic: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.  (Read 19173 times)

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Offline unitedatoms

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #175 on: January 16, 2020, 03:14:40 am »
May be rules did not change, it is just my memory failing. I think the rule is something like "Kickstarter cannot be used to fund software projects not run by the developers themselves." I'd broaden this to all projects, not just software. Why the hell someone will start a campaign to just pay to someone else to do the work.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 03:16:23 am by unitedatoms »
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Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #176 on: January 16, 2020, 11:23:15 am »
Modern embedded processors can easily plot 8-bit or 10-bit data on screen at 60fps, even without much intervention from the CPU. Embedded GPUs can easily do that.
Actually, because MegaZoom has on-chip plotter, their output canvas size is fixed, thus no smooth scaling is possible due to no original waveform data.
In case of scope drawing does not mean "plotting" as you say. Think of signal pass/fail (mask) processing - it does not happen at screen refresh rate, signal is "drawn" against mask at waveform update rate. Fixed screen size of MegaZoom was not limitation of ASIC as such, it was just poor design decision. Computer GPU's are ASICs as well, yet they support multiple resolutions . "MegaZoom case" actually shows limitations of ASIC - that you can't fix your errors easily and they cost alot.
 

Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #177 on: January 16, 2020, 01:15:22 pm »
May be rules did not change, it is just my memory failing. I think the rule is something like "Kickstarter cannot be used to fund software projects not run by the developers themselves." I'd broaden this to all projects, not just software. Why the hell someone will start a campaign to just pay to someone else to do the work.

Possibly this rule

Quote
Projects can’t fundraise for charity.

While nonprofits are welcome to launch projects on Kickstarter, projects can't promise to raise funds to donate to a charity or cause. Funds raised on Kickstarter must go towards facilitating the project outlined by the creator on the project page.

There is nothing wrong with raising money for third party to do the work, quite sensible in fact, but it's not something Kickstarter generally  support.
Other than that, there is no restriction on software projects.
Bob
"All you said is just a bunch of opinions."
 

Offline edigi

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #178 on: January 16, 2020, 02:08:00 pm »
Just one minor note on this oscilloscope ASIC/SoC project. You/the people involved in this better to be darn good in this kind of design as in case of FPGA if you made a mistake you fix the HDL and recompile/reload (often the design mistake is some kind of missing requirement). In case of ASIC you need re-run the design for another half a million or so.

When off-the-shelf components are used and you create only the glue logic with FPGA it's a huge help that you can trust the components to work as per their specifications saving a lot of guesswork where to look for a faulty part in a system working with very fast signals (that necessitate that people working on improving the design have very capable test equipments at their disposal).

For simple products the BOM is considerable price factor, for complex products like DSO it's not the BOM that is biggest factor but the several engineering learning cycles that go in it. Do you want to start a project where each learning cycle costs half a million or so or one where at worst case just a redesign of PCB but more often just a rebuild of the glue logic in FPGA is needed?
 

Offline OwO

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #179 on: January 16, 2020, 02:13:58 pm »
The FPGA/ASIC doesn't/shouldn't draw the actual image displayed on the screen. It "plots" traces by taking group min/max, for example min/max for samples 0-1023, 1024-2047, 2048-3071, etc. In my implementation I had the FPGA generate a series of these mipmaps, for example a /16 mipmap, /64 mipmap, /256, etc. The software does the drawing (which in my case was javascript in a browser) by requesting the lowest detailed mipmap that is equal or more detailed than the viewing zoom level. In my case the server side software does the downsampling from the selected mipmap level to the actual screen width in order to conserve network bandwidth. In a proper implementation for an oscope the mipmap generation adds very little memory bandwidth requirement because it is done directly on incoming data, NOT on data read from DRAM like an accelerator would do (that is why I dismissed the accelerator approach). However the implementation should still allow the possibility of reading data from DRAM, for example in FFT mode (assuming you have large >=1M FFT support at all which most scopes on the market don't).
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #180 on: January 16, 2020, 02:17:26 pm »
Modern embedded processors can easily plot 8-bit or 10-bit data on screen at 60fps, even without much intervention from the CPU. Embedded GPUs can easily do that.
10 years ago that might be a good idea, not anymore.
still a good idea or at least it should not hurt with modern FPGA. mcu not just to draw 60fps. it has to do math, USB to PC or pendrive capture, GUI, simple FFT etc. etc user interaction. look what happened to Rigol DS1000Z series. crawling slow GUI, only to stop acquisition just to get the responsiveness a bit better.
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline edigi

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #181 on: January 16, 2020, 02:35:14 pm »
simple FFT

Interesting but not very competitive idea, when nowadays even entry level DSOs can do 1M point FFT. No FFT in MCU.

While the MCU may only refresh the LCD with 60Hz only, the intensity graded waveform can contain the accumulation of several thousands of waveforms that can be done only in FPGA/ASIC.
Only one such glitch (missing requirement) in the ASIC design and either the project has to live with the gap or create a redesign for huge pile of money.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 03:05:55 pm by edigi »
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #182 on: January 16, 2020, 02:49:52 pm »
simple FFT
Interesting but not very competitive idea, when nowadays even entry level DSOs can do 1M point FFT. No FFT in MCU.
well you know, when everybody only care about $5 cheaper DSO... (less one chip) but if FFT can be fitted in the FPGA at $0 cost, why not? (but istr dso with dedicated 1Mpts FFT IC is not $5 cheaper)
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #183 on: January 16, 2020, 02:56:59 pm »
The FPGA/ASIC doesn't/shouldn't draw the actual image displayed on the screen. It "plots" traces by taking group min/max, for example min/max for samples 0-1023, 1024-2047, 2048-3071, etc.
Yes, software/CPU itself may take raster image prepared by FPGA, put it on the screen @60fps together with other stuff like grid, axis and additional info. What I am telling that CPU can't handle each of "0-1023, 1024-2047, 2048-3071" traces because they can come at 60000 times per second even on lo-end scopes such as Rigol DS1xxx series. Better scopes have even faster waveform processing & update speed.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 02:59:03 pm by ogden »
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope.
« Reply #184 on: February 25, 2020, 03:39:46 pm »
Long time no see. Any progress? Where do we line-up for scope ASICs?
 


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